Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Thekri]

Argue semantics until you turn blue as far as I'm concerned. It's an incredibly weak argument imo. The fact that they needed to go to the hospital in the first place is reasonably indicative that they sustained a substantial injury.

Tell me something, how many needed to be substantially injured (in your opinion) of even killed perhaps until their actions to protect the President were justified in your mind?

Oh I am fine with Trump staying away from protestors. Nothing good could happen if they actually came in close contact.

The problem is that Trump keeps fanning the flames on this. Further endangering everyone involved for his own ends. The Secret Service that have been injured are being injured because Trump keeps provoking the crowds. Granted, that is not an excuse for attacking innocent people, I am not endorsing attacks on anyone. However the fact that the President is completely unable and unwilling to deescalate things is a serious problem.

Trump is doing this for a reason, as usual he needs to secure his base. His complete mishandling of the epidemic has seriously shaken his standing with many, some remain loyal, but his margins are razor thin in the best conditions, and too many are tired of holding their noses. Trump has a lot to gain from this, it is a rallying cry for his base. From their perspective, scary black people are threatening the social order, we need a strong President to put them all back in their place with guns and dogs and hoses. This will get them out to vote, while Trump continues to erode Democratic enthusiasm in Biden. This has a very good chance of working. Although far more Americans want Biden to be President then Trump, Biden votes tend to be less enthusiastic about Biden (Although many are enthusiastic about beating Trump). So what Trump has to do is shore up all the scared white people vote, keep his turnout high, and repress/discourage democratic voters.

Trump has nothing to lose from inflaming this, none of the protestors were going to vote for him anyway. Decency isn't a factor here, he will make this as bad as he possibly can. Because seeing America in flames, riddled with disease, a crashing economy, racked with violence and hate isn't a problem for him. Not if he can win.

[Belize]

Citation please. Or admit that you're completely full of shit.

"No Secret Service protectees were ever in any danger"

What's your next goalpost move going to be? Are you just going to start resorting to personal since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about?

[Breccia]

I think this Reuters article is also worth discussion. Mostly because it is yet another "Breccia is wrong" post.

Please, actually read it before replying.

U.S. President Donald Trump has little choice but to stick with his Phase 1 China trade deal despite his anger at Beijing over the coronavirus pandemic, new Hong Kong security rules, and dwindling hopes China can meet U.S. goods purchase targets, people familiar with his administration’s deliberations say.

The U.S.-China trade negotiations took more than two years, heaped tariffs on $370 billion of Chinese products, whipsawed financial markets and dimmed global growth prospects well before the coronavirus outbreak crushed them.

In recent weeks, suggestions that Trump may cancel the deal have emanated from the White House almost daily, and businesses, investors, and China trade watchers are hanging on to every word and tweet.

But on Friday, when Trump said the United States would start dismantling trade and travel privileges for Hong Kong, he did not mention the deal. Stock markets heaved a sigh of relief, with the S&P 500 reversing losses.

Quick interruption here: a lot of people in the Bull Market Over! thread said exactly this. So if you were one of them, congrats, you called it perfectly.

Talking tough on China and criticizing the Obama administration's more measured approach is a key part of Trump's re-election strategy. Sticking with the pact may mean accepting that China is likely to fall short of purchase commitments for U.S. agricultural goods, manufactured products, energy and services - goals that many said were unrealistic here even before the pandemic.

Canceling the deal, though, would reignite the nearly two-year U.S.-China trade war at a time U.S. unemployment is at its worst since the 1930s Great Depression.

The next U.S. step would likely be reviving previously planned but canceled tariffs on some $165 billion worth of Chinese consumer goods, including Apple cellphones and computers, toys and clothing - all ultimately paid by U.S. companies and passed on to consumers. Beijing would retaliate with tariffs on U.S. goods, fueling more market turmoil and delaying recovery.

“He’s stuck with a lemon. He gets an empty agreement if he sticks with it, and he gets more actions that create an economic drag and more volatility if he abandons it,” said one person briefed on the administration’s trade deliberations.

U.S. goods exports here to China in the first quarter were down $4 billion from the trade war-damaged levels a year earlier, according to U.S. Census Bureau data.

The Peterson Institute of International Economics estimates here that during the first quarter, China made only about 40% of the purchases it needed to stay on target for a first-year increase of $77 billion over 2017 levels, implying an extremely steep climb in the second half.

Leaving the deal now would not buy a lasting political bounce for Trump in manufacturing-heavy swing states with five months to go before the presidential election, analysts say.

So much bolding for emphasis.

So I've been saying Phase One is dead, and I even cited -- today -- China cancelling purchases. What I failed to consider, was that Trump might not have a choice. If he raises tariffs any further, he puts salt on his own gaping wound. So while China isn't fulfilling their obligations, Trump might still need to.

Now, as we've seen, just because something is a bad idea doesn't prove Trump won't do it. We're talking about a guy who hid in a bunker because of a few dozen unarmed civilians who didn't breach the gates, for example. But where I've said there was no choice, I was wrong, there are two choices but they're both bad.

1) Stick with Phase One as the article suggests, hoping (as the WH is claiming) that despite heated political disagreement trade somehow rises to the point where it actually looks good, or

2) Dump Phase One as I've been suggesting, knowing full well China won't live up to their own end of the bargain anyhow, and at least claim a moral victory while, yep, kicking your own economy while it's down.

That's some Prisoner's Dilemna shit right there. The only real "win" is if Trump continues Phase One and hopes for a miracle on China's end. I don't think that's realistic, but I have to concede it's an option.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the first time I've heard this

That's because you're not following the conversation. Please post constructively.

[arandomuser]

How do you think trump will legally "declare antifa a terrorist orginzation"
he usually says one thing like " ban all muslims" but his advisers tell him its unconstitutional and it turns into like "targeted restriction of travel between specific countries in the middle east"

one thing we can look to history for is the sedition act when there was anarchist and socialist led protets riots
which lead to the arrest of eugene debs and palmer raids in wich anti war activist and socialist were arrested under orders of attorney general mitchell palmer.
https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/palmer-raids

barr reminds of palmer alot, i wonder if he does plan to run as trumps sucessor in 2024

[Breccia]

How do you think trump will legally "declare antifa a terrorist orginzation"

It's handled by the State Department and DNI, both of whose heads are stoogies. Technically, Trump could declare organic kale a terrorist agency, and as long as those departments back his play, it's on the list.

Whether or not it makes sense doesn't seem like it's a requirement. Like, who's the head of Antifa? Or Antifa's American branch? Do they have bank accounts we could freeze?

[Benggaul]

Oh I am fine with Trump staying away from protestors. Nothing good could happen if they actually came in close contact.

The problem is that Trump keeps fanning the flames on this. Further endangering everyone involved for his own ends. The Secret Service that have been injured are being injured because Trump keeps provoking the crowds. Granted, that is not an excuse for attacking innocent people, I am not endorsing attacks on anyone. However the fact that the President is completely unable and unwilling to deescalate things is a serious problem.

Trump is doing this for a reason, as usual he needs to secure his base. His complete mishandling of the epidemic has seriously shaken his standing with many, some remain loyal, but his margins are razor thin in the best conditions, and too many are tired of holding their noses. Trump has a lot to gain from this, it is a rallying cry for his base. From their perspective, scary black people are threatening the social order, we need a strong President to put them all back in their place with guns and dogs and hoses. This will get them out to vote, while Trump continues to erode Democratic enthusiasm in Biden. This has a very good chance of working. Although far more Americans want Biden to be President then Trump, Biden votes tend to be less enthusiastic about Biden (Although many are enthusiastic about beating Trump). So what Trump has to do is shore up all the scared white people vote, keep his turnout high, and repress/discourage democratic voters.

Trump has nothing to lose from inflaming this, none of the protestors were going to vote for him anyway. Decency isn't a factor here, he will make this as bad as he possibly can. Because seeing America in flames, riddled with disease, a crashing economy, racked with violence and hate isn't a problem for him. Not if he can win.

I don't think there were ever very many "enthusiastic" Biden voters to erode to begin with. Biden is not really a guy who inspires much enthusiasm. However as you stated, I--and millions of others--are VERY enthusiastic about voting Trump out, so I take that "soft support" with a grain of salt. There are very few people who seem to think Biden is the solution to all of our problems, but most of us know that Trump is the escalation of all our problems. Trump can continue dog whistling and inciting all he wants, but in the end even some of his supporters are starting to wake up to the fact they've been propping up a monster this whole time. I don't see him turning that around much before November. Which isn't to say he's definitely not going to win, but I think his chances are substantially smaller than they were at the start of the year.

[Kiri]

So what i gather from this the alt-right including their President are weak cowardly men and the left in the US is now the big manly threat, considering how antifa is suddenly a terrorist organization.

So in short they all just declared themselves cucks? Simply using their lingo against them.

Not really. His base has already mastered that particular form of art. "The left" is at the same time a pathetic organization of weak losers, but also an oppressive regime thwarting Trump's awesomeness at every turn. Just like the man himself can be both the epitome of greatness and success, but also a scrappy underdog, showing his enemies what's what.

It's like Schrödinger's Trump, but he has conditioned his most devoted followers to believe that they know for a fact that each outcome can be true, depending on which is currently needed. That's also why they are completely immune to being told that he lies, even if he himself proves himself a liar. It only matters what he is currently saying, and if he says the opposite in five minutes, he has never said the first thing. He told them that there is no object, permanent truth. There is only the word of Trump.

[Thekri]

I don't think there were ever very many "enthusiastic" Biden voters to erode to begin with. Biden is not really a guy who inspires much enthusiasm. However as you stated, I--and millions of others--are VERY enthusiastic about voting Trump out, so I take that "soft support" with a grain of salt. There are very few people who seem to think Biden is the solution to all of our problems, but most of us know that Trump is the escalation of all our problems. Trump can continue dog whistling and inciting all he wants, but in the end even some of his supporters are starting to wake up to the fact they've been propping up a monster this whole time. I don't see him turning that around much before November. Which isn't to say he's definitely not going to win, but I think his chances are substantially smaller than they were at the start of the year.

I am not sure of that, if 2020 has taught us anything, it is that November is still a very long way off. If the election was this week, I am confident Trump would lose. However it isn't this week, and who knows what comes next.

Covid-19 isn't going away, and Trump's 200k estimate is looking a lot smaller now then it was when he made it. The economy is going to be shambles, and who knows how long this round of protests is going to last with the GOP openly antagonizing them. Expect major power plays from China and Russia in the next several months as well, I fully expect Russia to annex something large in the coming months, both to distract from their own problems and because the rest of the world is otherwise occupied.

I really, really hope Trump loses. The presidential general election might as well have a Yes or No box after Trump's name, because he is running against himself at this point. Biden is mostly irrelevant except as the guy that gets the job if more people vote no to Trump. However there is still far to much time between now and November to be confident about anything. 2020 is going to get crazier.

[Breccia]

So it's time to talk about the Insurrection Act.

Rep. Cotton told Trump directly, by which I mean he was on FOX and Friends, that Trump should invoke this law to deal with the protests. Which means that this is now something to discuss, even if it's a bad idea.

The Act itself is a subject of some controversy, as well it should be, because it's a specific instance of the US armed forces being used inside the country's borders -- something that's highly frowned upon (see also: Posse Comitatus Act) (see also also: dictator).

The words in question, I believe, are

natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition

So, for example, Trump could have ordered the military to help out during a hurricane or lethal virus outbreak. But "terrorist attack" is the key here. Because if Trump can

a) label Antifa as a terrorist group, and
b) claim they are professionally organizing the protests

then he can use the US Army directly against the protestors.

For those of you who have been paying attention, Trump is trying to do both of these things. Trump is setting up for, well, martial law. There's really no other honest way to put it, even if the term has a negative connotation it doesn't deserve.

Now I'll put it this way: there are a lot of the Flu Klux Klan that are saying "we can reopen, the coronavirus isn't a real problem because I don't see it here". These people are about to pivot and say "because some cities are having some protests turn violent, Trump is allowed to declare martial law". Naturally, that requires hypocrisy, so I 100% expect them to do it.

I am having trouble finding any uses of the Insurrection Act, in this context, in the last 50 years. I did find one, and it is highly appropriate: the Rodney King verdict riots. Having lived through those, I can safely say that what we're seeing right now is nowhere near the level that overwhelmed the LAPD in 1992. Can anyone else find any? We should have an informed discussion, otherwise you're just trolling.

[Belize]

In an attempt to not look like a weak pathetic loser who's afraid of legitimate protests, Trump has an unhinged rant with Governors where he tells them they need to crush dissent.

Because that's not what scared Dictators do.
@DocSavageFan how are you going to defend President Pussyhands cowering in his bunker, yelling at others to Do SoMeThInG!1!

[Breccia]

CNN takes the fucking gloves off.



Jesus. Tone it down a little.

But I want to call attention to those two rectangles at the bottom. @Belize just cited the red one, nicely done by the way. But look at the side-by-side.

Which would you think was the President of the United States, based purely on what they're calling for?

EDIT: Holy shit, Reuters used the same picture.

[TigTone]

While I support the protests and i just hate knowing that the fake protestors destroying shit won’t get caught.

It will blamed on minority’s protests for better police and rights. Like always.

Trump is just making this shit worse with his stupid coward face and mouth.

[Benggaul]

I am not sure of that, if 2020 has taught us anything, it is that November is still a very long way off. If the election was this week, I am confident Trump would lose. However it isn't this week, and who knows what comes next.

Covid-19 isn't going away, and Trump's 200k estimate is looking a lot smaller now then it was when he made it. The economy is going to be shambles, and who knows how long this round of protests is going to last with the GOP openly antagonizing them. Expect major power plays from China and Russia in the next several months as well, I fully expect Russia to annex something large in the coming months, both to distract from their own problems and because the rest of the world is otherwise occupied.

I really, really hope Trump loses. The presidential general election might as well have a Yes or No box after Trump's name, because he is running against himself at this point. Biden is mostly irrelevant except as the guy that gets the job if more people vote no to Trump. However there is still far to much time between now and November to be confident about anything. 2020 is going to get crazier.

Ah ah ah...Trump's estimate was "it's just one guy from China"...then "it's 15 cases and soon it'll be down to zero"...then "it'll go away, don't worry, it'll go away."
Then it was "Okay, 60 thousand people but Biden is WORSE!" Then "100 thousand people because this Democratic hoax is scaring people and things are all whacky!" then "134 thousand people is what they're telling me now but still, somehow, Biden is WORSE!"

I sincerely doubt the people who are wavering now are going to be forgetting that Trump's been wrong and failing time and time again anytime soon. Mainly because people like me won't let them.

- - - Updated - - -

While I support the protests and i just hate knowing that the fake protestors destroying shit won’t get caught.

It will blamed on minority’s protests for better police and rights. Like always.

Trump is just making this shit worse with his stupid coward face and mouth.

A lot of people ARE getting caught, actually. They're being handed over to the police by the peaceful protestors or filmed for evidence later. Not all by a long shot, but probably more than has been the case in the past.

[Breccia]

NBC News headline: Trump dismissing advice to tone down rhetoric, address the nation

Headline says it all. But once again, Trump has put himself in a bad situation. He seems to have three options, but feel free to add more if you think of any:

1) Go Insurrection Act, declare the protestors part of an organized terrorist group, and basically declare martial law -- and as a reminder, he's already gone on record of saying that if someone throws a rock, they should be shot

2) Continue the status quo, sending National Guard when asked for but letting the governors handle it, while (damn, but @Belize is on point today) yelling DO SOMETHING! from his bunker

3) Call for peace, and reassure the nation that racism in law enforcement will not be tolerated and announce actions aimed at the source of the issue, in an attempt to ease tensions.

Obama clearly leans towards #3, based on his statements on the subject. I don't see Trump going that route.

Problem is, if Trump picks #2 or #3, well...okay, imagine you're a violent gun-totin' Y'all Qaeda member, one of the very fine people in the furthest right of Trump's rabid fanbase. The type of people some members of our own community (for example @Skroe ) left the Republican party rather than be associated with. Now, imagine you're one of those "I need my 45-round extended mag to protect my rights" people, and imagine your chosen leader sits back and watches -- man, I'm so sorry about this language, but this is how they view it -- watches as some uppity black folk start some trouble and Trump does nothing.

What happens next?

We already know, as does the federal government, that these very fine people are already involved in making things worse. If you didn't catch that, please inform yourself before posting your ignorance, and it was posted multiple times on these very forums, do try to keep up, please post constructively. Now imagine that these provocations, as we've seen so far, haven't led to the full-on civil war that, deep down, they think they'll fight in and win.

And Trump does nothing.

What happens next?

I think Trump knows what happens next. I think Trump's afraid of what happens next: his side losing. Look around the USA. What percent of non-military, non-law-enforcement, 2A-Americans would actually grab a gun and go shooting at rioters? One percent? Less? The KKK membership is so small these days, the coronavirus could potentially have wiped them out. Are there pockets of But Muh Rights! out there? Yes. Are they in the cities with the violent protests? Maybe. Are there enough? No.

Just like we all know (we don't all admit, but we all know) that 2A-Americans couldn't stop the federal government even if they wanted to (Bundy, Waco, etc) I think we all know that a few armed but poorly trained Talibubs versus several hundred angry, violent rioters will end in a fucking rout. And what does Trump and by extension the rabid fanbase think is a fate worse than any? Losing. They're not fighters, they're bullies. And when that clip is empty and the other one hundred ninety five now enraged rioters rush at them, they will have two choices: be ripped to pieces, or run like cowards. (Option three, don't shoot at them, is my personal preference but this is a projection we're talking about here).

Trump knows his side will lose. He can either sit back and accept it, looking like a failure and a coward, or he can send in the troops, taking another steps towards martial law/dictator during an election year which already has a lethal outbreak and also a crashing economy.

It's time to see if Trump will order someone to shoot a guy on Fifth Avenue.

- - - Updated - - -

So I kept browsing news, hit CBS and...oh, God, there's just too much. Just going to screenshot and circle the stuff we haven't mentioned yet.



That bottom left is especially relevant.

[Breccia]

China calls Trump a fucking coward in public.

Chinese state media has mocked President Donald Trump over the ongoing George Floyd protests, with one newspaper editor telling the commander-in-chief not to "hide behind" law enforcement.

As demonstrations against police brutality have spread to cities across the U.S. in the wake of Floyd's death, Chinese propaganda outlets have called instances of rioting "retribution" for American support of Hong Kong's pro-democracy protesters.

"Mr. President, don't hide behind the Secret Service," Global Times editor-in-chief Hu Xijin tweeted on Saturday. "Negotiate with them, just like you urged Beijing to talk to Hong Kong rioters."

Xijin later peddled an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that "Hong Kong rioters" had infiltrated the U.S. and were the "mastermind of violent protests" impacting cities across the country.

Wow. I think we know why NK's been silent -- they're giving China trolling lessons.

"Hey China shouldn't push conspiracy theories!"

Neither should Trump. And, yet, here we are.

[Draco-Onis]

NBC News headline: Trump dismissing advice to tone down rhetoric, address the nation

Headline says it all. But once again, Trump has put himself in a bad situation. He seems to have three options, but feel free to add more if you think of any:

1) Go Insurrection Act, declare the protestors part of an organized terrorist group, and basically declare martial law -- and as a reminder, he's already gone on record of saying that if someone throws a rock, they should be shot

2) Continue the status quo, sending National Guard when asked for but letting the governors handle it, while (damn, but @Belize is on point today) yelling DO SOMETHING! from his bunker

3) Call for peace, and reassure the nation that racism in law enforcement will not be tolerated and announce actions aimed at the source of the issue, in an attempt to ease tensions.

I think we know what he will do #2, COVID has shown how Trump handles crisises that aren't of his own making. He simply folds and collapses under pressure just like the cheap suits he wears, he simply doesn't have the balls to lead anything.

[Breccia]

Newsweek see's CNN's side-by-side rectangled earlier and says "Hold my beer."



- - - Updated - - -

Given he has already stated that ANTIFA (because he's apparently labelling everyone involved as ANTIFA) are going to be declared a terrorist "organisation," would that mean he's already halfway through this option?

Yes, I believe that's the case.

he simply doesn't have the balls to lead anything.

"Lead" isn't the point. Trump doesn't lead. Trump tweets, and takes credit if it goes well. No, he doesn't want to lead on this, but he wants the success it would bring it if goes well. And he's scared of looking like a loser (the "coward" ship has sailed, which is a bad metaphor, you can't get a ship in a bunker. Maybe a submarine) and he's scared of losing his rabid fanbase by doing nothing.

I would prefer the third option ("the Obama option" since he's out in front on that). Since he won't do that, I would prefer the status quo "do nothing" versus "order US military to fire on protestors". I just think, as mentioned above, he's getting ready to do exactly that, out of fear, out of cowardice, out of racism and out of his ego.

I've said, for years, Trump would start a war to save his failing tenure. I just kind of figured it'd be outside our borders, that's all.

[Endus]

Do you have a source that any of those 11 people were admitted to the hospital? Because many (if not all) of them could have been treated and released. For instance if someone needed 4 stitches. Which again, I wouldn't call a substantial injury.

We got a new puppy when I was a teenager. I ran down a hall to get it to chase me, slipped, and fell against a buffet. I hit it with my ear, and my earlobe split so badly I needed 18 stitches.

Stitches are nothing. They're a small step up from a bandaid.

China calls Trump a fucking coward in public.

I mean, he is. That's why he's a bully. All bullies are, fundamentally, chickenshit cowards. They struggle to put themselves at the top of the social heap because they're so fucking terrified of being victimized, the same way they victimize others. They know they can't take it. They're all fragile little cowards, at heart.

It's not letting the secret service protect him that makes Trump a coward, it's lashing out from behind those protections because he feels safe doing so.

[Breccia]

That's why he's a bully. All bullies are, fundamentally, chickenshit cowards.

Oh, no question there. I just cited it for a few reasons.

1) Like you said, they're right.

2) Also, China correctly points out Trump is a hypocrite. "Hey China, negotiate!" Trump said, while hiding in his bunker and preparing to order lethal force on unarmed civilians.

3) And of course, yet another round in the "Phase One Is Dead" song. You all know the words by now.

[DocSavageFan]

"No Secret Service protectees were ever in any danger"

What's your next goalpost move going to be? Are you just going to start resorting to personal since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about?

If the President wasn't in any danger, then why would they move him to the bunker? Res ipsa loquitur.