Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[D Luniz]

so McConnel goes for almost 20 mins about how Trump should be criminally charged, but still voted no to impeach

so he felt Trump committed crimes, but should be able to have a chance be president again

[Benggaul]

I keep hearing this repeated a lot but... No.

This is always what American conservatism has fundamentally been about. It's just been a lot more polite until now.

I keep hearing this repeated a lot but...No.

There are plenty of people who say they are conservative to mask the fact that they are just bigoted assholes and have latched onto conservatives to legitimize themselves, shouting "Religion! Fiscal responsibility! Save the children!" but secretly just want brown people deported and gay people shoved back into closets. They aren't conservatives. They don't care that Trump was a philanderer (who almost certainly quietly paid for his mistresses to have abortions) or that he increased the national debt or that the only time he ever set foot in a church was for a photo op. They just cared that he was hurting the right people, as they perceived it.

Conversely, actual conservatives who for example do believe we need to curb our national debt, hate the idea of abortions (but make concessions that they're a necessity in many cases) and couldn't care less what others believe so long as they're allowed their own religious beliefs also exist and you've been on the same side of them the past four years in these very forums. I know of at least 3 who have been staunchly anti-Trump (and anti-GOP since the rise of Trumpism) here and I've watched you and just about every other sane person here agree with them and count them as comrades in arms for the most part. I won't call them by name here because obviously, as you demonstrate, "conservative" now "obviously" means they're the fucking worst. One of them's been permabanned for their vehement hatred of Trump's GOP.

Now, I disagree with their opinions on many things since I'm no conservative myself, but I would not go so far as to lump them in with the MAGA crowd or even "Republicans" as the party stands today.

[Xeones]

So they have officially renamed the party to the traitor party? I'll never say the word republican again outside of the historical context.

[Elegiac]

Conversely, actual conservatives who for example do believe we need to curb our national debt, hate the idea of abortions (but make concessions that they're a necessity in many cases) and couldn't care less what others believe so long as they're allowed their own religious beliefs also exist and you've been on the same side of them the past four years in these very forums.

Sure. In the same way the US was allied to the USSR during World War II - they're allies of convenience, but remain ideological opponents that are cut of the same cloth as the common enemy.

"The national debt is too high", "I hate the idea of abortions even if they're necessary", and "I couldn't care less whatever crazy thing others believe as long as I'm left alone" are all, as I said, polite versions of the far right extreme we see manifested now. Wanting to conserve an unjust and bigoted system makes one a bigot by definition, and the refusal to reckon with that and instead treat the opposition as respectable gentleman is one of the reasons meaningful reform has been so difficult to achieve.

[beanman12345]

He is the same as the entire GOP they are all afraid of the base although this will be their legacy they don't have the balls to make the tough decision. They are all voting to acquit him because it's the easiest thing to do today and hoping everyone forgets about this in the future. They have basically removed the power of impeachment from congress, there's zero chance any democrat will vote to convict someone from their party ever. This will be known as the McConnell precedent hopefully the GOP gets destroyed in 2022 because we are heading a very dark path.

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He doesn't need a reason he didn't hold an emergency session to convict Trump because he wanted an out but he was going to acquit no matter what none of them have the balls.

Ben Sasse has the balls. Fk even Romney has now given trump the finger and voted to convict, twice. It's not being cowardice to the whims of the voters, cause where they gonna go? They gambling on a horse that lost badly, like really badly, and instead of being smart, they are doing a trump and doubling down on the stupidity. The good majority of the entire party is doubling down. Republicans are just stupid.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I used to believe McConnell was smart, maybe he was once, but damn he's been doing some braindead stupid shit of late. Welcome to not having control of the senate and no control in your own party Moscow Bitch.

The problem is that McConnell is smart. He's just made an argument that gives Republicans some cover, as well as a plausible excuse to reject the impeachment of Trump while distancing themselves from him. This was significantly more impactful than anything that people like Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, or Lindsay Graham have said to the media since the insurrection, as he essentially admits the facts of the situation while providing a semantic argument against the impeachment.

Obviously, what he has done is excuse Trump's behaviour and emboldened people like him, but the target audience likely won't see it as that. There's a reason he put forward the idea of legal prosecution against Trump for crimes he may have committed in office near the end of his speech. This was not for you and me, it was for the Republican base that was freaked out by what happened at the Capitol and have begun to question their place in the Republican party. He wants to try and get them back to business as usual, and the speech has likely worked towards that. I wouldn't be surprised if many American conservatives now blame the failure of the impeachment on the Democrats for having brought forward bad articles, and will reference this speech by McConnell when doing so.

As disgusting as it is, his final speech was likely impactful with their base.

[Elegiac]

Ben Sasse has the balls. Fk even Romney has now given trump the finger and voted to convict, twice. It's not being cowardice to the whims of the voters, cause where they gonna go? They gambling on a horse that lost badly, like really badly, and instead of being smart, they are doing a trump and doubling down on the stupidity. The good majority of the entire party is doubling down. Republicans are just stupid.

Oh yeah like... Even if this wasn't successful this remains the most bipartisan impeachment attempt in history, so Trump broke yet another record.

[Magical Mudcrab]

so McConnel goes for almost 20 mins about how Trump should be criminally charged, but still voted no to impeach

so he felt Trump committed crimes, but should be able to have a chance be president again

Yep, he basically made two arguments.
(1) Incitement has a specific legal definition, which he claims Trump did not meet. So while he provoked insurrection, he did not incite it.
(2) The same claim that impeachment is for removal from office and citizens cannot be impeached.

Obviously, the former is simply semantics, and the latter is an argument that has been resoundingly debunked. It just goes to show that impeachment is, in the modern age, a dead procedure unless one party has a supermajority.

[Draco-Onis]

Ben Sasse has the balls. Fk even Romney has now given trump the finger and voted to convict, twice. It's not being cowardice to the whims of the voters, cause where they gonna go? They gambling on a horse that lost badly, like really badly, and instead of being smart, they are doing a trump and doubling down on the stupidity. The good majority of the entire party is doubling down. Republicans are just stupid.

They are all afraid that Trump will start his own party or that they are going to get primaried. The future of the GOP is Marjorie Taylor Greene and Donald Trump. The GOP has always been a minority party they lost this election only by 100K votes, Trump still got the most amount of votes than any other GOP candidate. It's really about survival and keeping their seat in their own district like I said if the GOP wins in 2022 they will go even nuttier.

[beanman12345]

The problem is that McConnell is smart. He's just made an argument that gives Republicans some cover, as well as a plausible excuse to reject the impeachment of Trump while distancing themselves from him. This was significantly more impactful than anything that people like Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, or Lindsay Graham have said to the media since the insurrection, as he essentially admits the facts of the situation while providing a semantic argument against the impeachment.

Obviously, what he has done is excuse Trump's behaviour and emboldened people like him, but the target audience likely won't see it as that. There's a reason he put forward the idea of legal prosecution against Trump for crimes he may have committed in office near the end of his speech. This was not for you and me, it was for the Republican base that was freaked out by what happened at the Capitol and have begun to question their place in the Republican party. He wants to try and get them back to business as usual, and the speech has likely worked towards that. I wouldn't be surprised if many American conservatives now blame the failure of the impeachment on the Democrats for having brought forward bad articles, and will reference this speech by McConnell when doing so.

As disgusting as it is, his final speech was likely impactful with their base.

machiavelli prince has cognative. That voting base lost him all his power. He's an idiot plain and simple.

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They are all afraid that Trump will start his own party or that they are going to get primaried. The future of the GOP is Marjorie Taylor Greene and Donald Trump. The GOP has always been a minority party they lost this election only by 100K votes, Trump still got the most amount of votes than any other GOP candidate. It's really about survival and keeping their seat in their own district like I said if the GOP wins in 2022 they will go even nuttier.

It is now, they right now coulda nipped it in the bud, but they are stupid and made the future of the party on the losing horse. To have a fate of the Whigs. so smart....

[Rasulis]

the trump families grip on the party is now total.

Not really. During Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton impeachment trials, not a single Democrats voted to impeach in both the House and Senate.

We had 1 Republican and 7 Republican reps in the Senate voted to impeach in 2019 and 2021, and 10 in the house in 2021. He is splitting the party right now. Not exactly in the middle, but enough to make 2022 and 2024 difficult for the GOP.

[Benggaul]

Oh yeah like... Even if this wasn't successful this remains the most bipartisan impeachment attempt in history, so Trump broke yet another record.

I also think they pretty much got every vote to convict they possibly could have from the current crop of GOP. I was actually surprised seven flipped; I was expecting perhaps two (Romney and maybe Collins/Murkowski).

[tehdang]

Let the record show which GOP members now fully support the murderous insurrection, by virtue of being possible casualties of it and still not holding the ringleader accountable. Even those saying "Technicality" are now supporting it, because from now on, any outgoing elected representative can try this -- and not be held accountable when they fail, because they were leaving office anyhow.

I hope the feeling gives those rabid fambase members who got caught warm the warmest feeling at night...well, maybe second warmest, after their cellmate.

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The strange thing is the jury was the witnesses. They were actually the victims.

If that’s your stance, then it sounds like you’re victim blaming. How dare you tell the victims how they should vote!

The whole “now fully support murderous insurrection” is the kind of expected overreach. Senators know their constituents see them, and see the mob demanding a (farcical) remove vote, or they’re going to allege they’re in league with the couple hundred that stormed. Schumer should bring a censure vote, quoting McConnell’s denunciation, to actually tell what Republicans will agree on the Senate record — totally divorced from the political machinations of House Democrats pursuing political power first.

[Fincayra]

He is the same as the entire GOP they are all afraid of the base although this will be their legacy they don't have the balls to make the tough decision. They are all voting to acquit him because it's the easiest thing to do today and hoping everyone forgets about this in the future. They have basically removed the power of impeachment from congress, there's zero chance any democrat will vote to convict someone from their party ever. This will be known as the McConnell precedent hopefully the GOP gets destroyed in 2022 because we are heading a very dark path.

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He doesn't need a reason he didn't hold an emergency session to convict Trump because he wanted an out but he was going to acquit no matter what none of them have the balls.

The Trumpers already see the GOP as worthless because they didn't stand behind Trump when it came to his post election lawsuits and such. I'm not upset with the Biden presidency so far, after a solid year of demonizing about how they'll pack the court, take the guns, and every other leftist dream scenario. Tired as fuck of the partisanship. I just want shit to get back to how things were pre-Trump.

[Zeth Hawkins]

The strange thing is the jury was the witnesses. They were actually the victims.

It is not normal for witnesses to be on the jury, correct? Another oddity of this "trial".

[Elegiac]

It is not normal for witnesses to be on the jury, correct? Another oddity of this "trial".

"It doesn't look like the trials I've seen on TV therefore it isn't a real trial" is a shitty argument, hun.

[Omega10]

So they have officially renamed the party to the traitor party? I'll never say the word republican again outside of the historical context.

The good news is that even Trump's lawyer essentially agreed with this assessment. He made it quite clear that he considered the people that stormed the capitol criminals that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I suspect that the people that were there in support of Trump are less than amused.

He did not use the word terrorist, but he DID call it an insurrection and was quite emotional about how horrible he considered these people to be. This is Trump majorly throwing some of most emphatic supporters under the bus in a major way.

[Draco-Onis]

The Trumpers already see the GOP as worthless because they didn't stand behind Trump when it came to his post election lawsuits and such. I'm not upset with the Biden presidency so far, after a solid year of demonizing about how they'll pack the court, take the guns, and every other leftist dream scenario. Tired as fuck of the partisanship. I just want shit to get back to how things were pre-Trump.

There's no going back to pre-Trump he is forever going to be haunting US politics, there's hundreds of Trump copies in congress now.

[postman1782]

Watching the hearing live, and enjoying watching Michael Van Der Veen point out the hypocrisy and desperation of the House Managers. He is devastating them.

Only someone so fucking delusional would think that these shitty lawyers did ANYTHING but make fools of themselves.

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Not guilty!

Justice prevailed.

Was already a forgone conclusion because Republicans have no fucking spines. And this isn't Justice, Justice would be Trump convicted, and get the death penalty for attempted treason.

[Gorsameth]

"It doesn't look like the trials I've seen on TV therefore it isn't a real trial" is a shitty argument, hun.

The senate impeachment proceedings are not a trial in the first place.

If they were Trump would have been in actual trouble.