1. #68581
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    If that is legal, than yikes.
    They are claiming to go none profit... :/
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  2. #68582
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    They are claiming to go none profit... :/
    The NRA is already a nonprofit, though the NY AG has a lawsuit pending on their nonprofit status. That's likely why they're looking to move to Texas.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  3. #68583
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The NRA is already a nonprofit, though the NY AG has a lawsuit pending on their nonprofit status. That's likely why they're looking to move to Texas.
    Can they nail the NRA if the org moves out of NY?
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  4. #68584
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    Can they nail the NRA if the org moves out of NY?
    Probably not.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  5. #68585
    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    Can they nail the NRA if the org moves out of NY?
    Yup.

    Also I am the only one seeing this move as a great opportunity to "lose" a bunch of servers,financial records,etc that might be subpoenaed at some point in the near future?

  6. #68586
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    If that is legal, than yikes.
    I get the feeling poor overworked @cubby will chime in with better info, but here's what I lknow on the subject.

    You can "declare bankruptcy" basically just because you feel like it, but then it goes to court and shit gets real. The concept of declaring bankruptcy is a legal, public announcement that you owe more than you have and can't handle the issue yourself. Two things happen:
    1) You forfeit any right to decide which of your creditors is paid off and how, and
    2) When it's over, you walk away with effectively nothing -- special exception for student loans.

    People who provide services for pay, such as loaning money, fucking hate it when you declare bankruptcy, because depending on where they stand in line, they might get a partial payment, or they might get none. They can/will make their case in court but so will everyone else.

    This is also why people who have declared bankruptcy are considered bad risks. They've already shafted others before, so there's a lot of disincentive to give them a second (third, fourth, Trumpth...) chance.

    *cracks knuckles*

    Which is why what the NRA is doing is a bad idea if optional, and could easily be the death of their organization.

    New York State's new motto is "we don't fuck around with Trump or his allies". Yeah, upstate disagrees, but NYC outnumbers the rest of NY so they got to choose. Anyhow, They are suing the crap out of the NRA for claiming they're a nonprofit but not acting like one. You've seen it before, it was on the Trump Runs a Fraud Charity show on the Trump Is A Criminal network. The NRA in particular was caught paying their former...(checks news) nope, still current CEO LaPierre millions upon millions.

    NYState's lawsuit is ongoing. If it's incomplete, the NRA can't really call the result a debt and bankruptcy won't clear it.

    And it's worse. When you declare bankruptcy, the court does not go through previous payments you've already made and reclaim them. It's a court hearing, not time travel. So, LaPierre will keep all those assets. So will any other excessive payments that led them here in the first place. NYState is not going to take "we spent the money illegally" as an excuse not to pay NYState back. And, yes, a judge can decide on a penalty in a lawsuit which is more money than you have.

    Declaring bankruptcy after they lose in court would have made much more sense. Now they're putting themselves into a situation where they're taking their cooldowns off their taskbar, before the raid starts.

  7. #68587
    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    Can they nail the NRA if the org moves out of NY?
    It sounds like pretty open and shut fraudulent bankruptcy. I see this only fucking the NRA even harder than they might have already been.

  8. #68588
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    Can they nail the NRA if the org moves out of NY?
    The lawsuit is based on past actions which took place in NYState, so, yes. There's nothing different about this than any other criminal or civil penalty if you leave the jurisdiction after the crime was committed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    It sounds like pretty open and shut fraudulent bankruptcy. I see this only fucking the NRA even harder than they might have already been.
    It might not actually be fraudulent. A lot of their resources have dried up and they threw more money than they should have in elections they either lost, or got Trump so still lost.

  9. #68589
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    It might not actually be fraudulent. A lot of their resources have dried up and they threw more money than they should have in elections they either lost, or got Trump so still lost.

    An important thing to add here: If the NRA had even an Iota of business sense, they should (in a secretive way) help democrats win, as the gun sales go up when dems are in power.
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  10. #68590
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I get the feeling poor overworked @cubby will chime in with better info, but here's what I lknow on the subject.

    You can "declare bankruptcy" basically just because you feel like it, but then it goes to court and shit gets real. The concept of declaring bankruptcy is a legal, public announcement that you owe more than you have and can't handle the issue yourself. Two things happen:
    1) You forfeit any right to decide which of your creditors is paid off and how, and
    2) When it's over, you walk away with effectively nothing -- special exception for student loans.

    People who provide services for pay, such as loaning money, fucking hate it when you declare bankruptcy, because depending on where they stand in line, they might get a partial payment, or they might get none. They can/will make their case in court but so will everyone else.

    This is also why people who have declared bankruptcy are considered bad risks. They've already shafted others before, so there's a lot of disincentive to give them a second (third, fourth, Trumpth...) chance.

    *cracks knuckles*

    Which is why what the NRA is doing is a bad idea if optional, and could easily be the death of their organization.

    New York State's new motto is "we don't fuck around with Trump or his allies". Yeah, upstate disagrees, but NYC outnumbers the rest of NY so they got to choose. Anyhow, They are suing the crap out of the NRA for claiming they're a nonprofit but not acting like one. You've seen it before, it was on the Trump Runs a Fraud Charity show on the Trump Is A Criminal network. The NRA in particular was caught paying their former...(checks news) nope, still current CEO LaPierre millions upon millions.

    NYState's lawsuit is ongoing. If it's incomplete, the NRA can't really call the result a debt and bankruptcy won't clear it.

    And it's worse. When you declare bankruptcy, the court does not go through previous payments you've already made and reclaim them. It's a court hearing, not time travel. So, LaPierre will keep all those assets. So will any other excessive payments that led them here in the first place. NYState is not going to take "we spent the money illegally" as an excuse not to pay NYState back. And, yes, a judge can decide on a penalty in a lawsuit which is more money than you have.

    Declaring bankruptcy after they lose in court would have made much more sense. Now they're putting themselves into a situation where they're taking their cooldowns off their taskbar, before the raid starts.
    Yeah my take on this is, their lawyers laid our every single available option to them, and the NRA deciding this was their best option, makes me more confident that the NRA is screwed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The lawsuit is based on past actions which took place in NYState, so, yes. There's nothing different about this than any other criminal or civil penalty if you leave the jurisdiction after the crime was committed.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It might not actually be fraudulent. A lot of their resources have dried up and they threw more money than they should have in elections they either lost, or got Trump so still lost.
    It *might* not be, but the timing of it, their announcement they are doing better than recent years, while being sued, sounds like they're trying to hide assets so they don't have to pay up. I'm not a lawyer though. It just seems obvious to me, but maybe it's not.

  11. #68591
    https://twitter.com/zachreinert0/sta...737784832?s=19

    Damn the NRA couldn’t survive one year without school shootings
    Seriously, I'd have thought with a Democrat coming into office they'd be in better shape, but I guess without school shootings it's pretty hard to raise money and scare "Second Amendment" types into thinking the gub'mint is comin for their guns after a bunch of kids get fuckin murdered at school.

  12. #68592
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    the NRA is screwed.
    Regardless of their "taking our toys and leaving, fuck you" tone, yeah, you don't declare bankruptcy unless you're really that bad off. It's not an instant "I win" button that makes lawsuits go away, it guts your posessions and damages your future ability to do business.

    Oh, I forgot to mention: a lot of people who probably used to give to the NRA gave directly to Trump instead. There's a finite amount of money in the hands of stupid people during an economic downturn, and the cult leader is always first. It would not surprise me if 2020 was the NRA's worst year for donations. They laid off hundreds of employees. Most of their 2018 candidates lost, but worse, they spent so much money and lost so much business that they couldn't bribe lobby as hard as they used to, and therefore, there's less support to get them out of their current problems.

    We won't know the full details for a while -- how many donations they've gotten in 2020 isn't public yet, for example. But yes, all visible evidence except the tone of that announcement suggest their magazine is nearly empty.

  13. #68593
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    NYState's lawsuit is ongoing. If it's incomplete, the NRA can't really call the result a debt and bankruptcy won't clear it.
    The NY AG's lawsuit against the NRA is seeking dissolution, not damages. The lawsuit was never going to incur more debt. And if the NRA vacates New York, the AG's jurisdiction is vacated, as well. The laws cited in James' lawsuit are New York laws.

    Reuters: National Rifle Association files for bankruptcy, seeking to escape New York lawsuit

    The NRA was sued in August by New York Attorney General Letitia James, who accused LaPierre and other senior leaders of self-dealing and mismanagement, and said the group’s activities violated state laws governing nonprofits.

    In her lawsuit, James said the NRA’s incorporation as a nonprofit in New York gave her authority to seek its dissolution. The NRA filed a countersuit in federal court in Albany, New York, accusing her of violating its free speech rights because she disliked its politics.

    Friday’s move will likely put the New York lawsuit on hold, and a reincorporation in Texas could strip James of her power to dissolve the group.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  14. #68594
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The NY AG's lawsuit against the NRA is seeking dissolution, not damages. The lawsuit was never going to incur more debt.
    There's more to it than that. The NRA acted like a for-profit for years and also refused audits. They're going after the NRA's money because the NRA's money is illegal.

    And even if NYState was going to simply dissolve the NRA before, this "take our toys and go, fuck you" will almost certainly lead into a more vindictive approach anyhow.

  15. #68595
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    They're going after the NRA's money because the NRA's money is illegal.
    They're not going after the NRA's money, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    And even if NYState was going to simply dissolve the NRA before, this "take our toys and go, fuck you" will almost certainly lead into a more vindictive approach anyhow.
    The NY AG wouldn't have the authority to dissolve the NRA if the NRA goes bankrupt and then reincorporates in Texas.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  16. #68596
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The NY AG wouldn't have the authority to dissolve the NRA if the NRA goes bankrupt and then reincorporates in Texas.
    Maybe not. But they would have 100% fair game to file new civil charges and go after penalties for, you know, not being a charity but claiming to be a charity. The NRA paid taxes as if they were a charity, if they weren't, they owe NYState a bunch of back taxes.

    They're not just going to shrug and say "well, I guess they win, come on kids, let's go home".

  17. #68597
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    They're not going after the NRA's money, though.



    The NY AG wouldn't have the authority to dissolve the NRA if the NRA goes bankrupt and then reincorporates in Texas.
    per breccia's ag press release

    As a result of all the allegations mentioned above, Attorney General James seeks to dissolve the NRA; asks the court to order LaPierre, Phillips, Powell, and Frazer to make full restitution for funds they unlawfully profited and salaries earned while employees; pay penalties; recover illegal and unauthorized payments to the four individuals; remove LaPierre and Frazer from the NRA’s leadership (Phillips and Powell are no longer employed by the NRA); and ensure none of the four individual defendants can ever again serve on the board of a charity in New York.
    I guess it depends on what you call NRA's money.

  18. #68598
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Maybe not. But they would have 100% fair game to file new civil charges and go after penalties for, you know, not being a charity but claiming to be a charity. The NRA paid taxes as if they were a charity, if they weren't, they owe NYState a bunch of back taxes.
    New civil charges would have to be filed by the Texas AG, no?

    And the IRS is, afaik, the only agency that can strip a corporation of its nonprofit status.

    Also, as they're declaring bankruptcy before reincorporating, I would think that would pretty much preclude NY from being able to demand back taxes, even if a federal case were to retroactively strip the NRA's nonprofit status.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  19. #68599
    Candace Owens admits Fake News is news Trumpers don't like.



    Americans are the Chinese of the west. The main reason people tolerate them is because they are too big to ignore.

    "Admit nothing, deny everything, launch counterattack." - Roger Stone (Trump's Friend, Ally, and Campaign Advisor)

  20. #68600
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    per breccia's ag press release
    As a result of all the allegations mentioned above, Attorney General James seeks to dissolve the NRA; asks the court to order LaPierre, Phillips, Powell, and Frazer to make full restitution for funds they unlawfully profited and salaries earned while employees; pay penalties; recover illegal and unauthorized payments to the four individuals; remove LaPierre and Frazer from the NRA’s leadership (Phillips and Powell are no longer employed by the NRA); and ensure none of the four individual defendants can ever again serve on the board of a charity in New York.
    I guess it depends on what you call NRA's money.
    The lawsuit states that LaPierre, et al, should pay that money... back to the NRA.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

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