1. #70381
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    To this day, I wonder if Russia/Putin has buyer's remorse. They went through a lot of effort to help Trump win. Was it worth it?
    There is an intelligence leak issue that we, as the public, even if it's wholly discovered and analyzed, will NEVER know about. Manafort and Flynn were just the people we knew about who worked with the Eastern Front, along with Giuliani's stooges. It's possible nothing substantial was leaked to Putin but if you'll recall, @Skroe's analysis on the FIRST person Trump put into place in his new cabinet - the Director of the CIA (not the cabinet post of National Intelligence, not SecDef, not SecState - you get the idea). And the DCI holds ALL the cards.

    Pompeo was his pick, and this guy, amongst his many short comings, failed to disclose the links between his company in Kansas and a Chinese government owned firm.

    So, buyer's remorse? Probably, but the one thing we do know is that we'll never know.

  2. #70382
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Sure, but 600,000+
    Russia isn't doing great either, but despite some "genuine" posters' comments, the US handled COVID proportionately far worse than other first-world countries. I doubt Putin helped install Trump saying "well Trump is such a proven anti-vaxxer and so blindingly stupid at any form of listening to experts, that a lethal outbreak will kill their country and Trump will cheer its death" but that's 100% what he said afterwards.

  3. #70383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The results were not well hidden.

    Also, you and @cubby both left out the part where one of the members was arrested, and one of them died.
    You can only dunk so much on one person for one subject, and TexasLives has enough trouble keeping up with the major events of reality, I feared the minutiae would cause an unrelenting tumble.

    However, yeah, that part was fucking hysterical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pathora44 View Post
    Maybe I am misremembering this but didn't Trump's voter fraud commission find so much nothing that they closed the commission and hide the results.
    Indeed, along with Breccia's outstanding points. The whole thing was a complete shitshow, aside from essentially confirming reality.

  4. #70384
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    WADR, that doesn't disprove my point.

    Dems didn't;t come out for Hillary because she was another typical politician. The votes Trump got, from the independents, were protest votes because of the Dens putting up Hillary. Nothing about Trump's platform was centrist or independent. It was batshit crazy and many people used their vote like a firecracker meant to shake things up. Once he was elected and openly embraced racism and nationalism, then the people turned into cultists.
    Or the racist bootstrapper vote didn’t change at all. Sure he might’ve grabbed a few independents but there are people who will vote against the incumbent party because that’s what they do. A racist business man running for office isn’t new or radical.

    The Dems need to do the work and make sure people get up and vote. Obama was good at that. Stacy Abrams is also good at that. Hillary was not. She thought she was going to run a victory lap because her opponent was a clown and many people didn’t want to get off the coach because they thought she wouldn’t need their vote. 2016 just showed you can’t take anything for granted.

  5. #70385
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Russia isn't doing great either, but despite some "genuine" posters' comments, the US handled COVID proportionately far worse than other first-world countries. I doubt Putin helped install Trump saying "well Trump is such a proven anti-vaxxer and so blindingly stupid at any form of listening to experts, that a lethal outbreak will kill their country and Trump will cheer its death" but that's 100% what he said afterwards.
    I'm not sure why you're thinking I'm saying that was the plan. The plan was to put the worst person possible in charge, because it would do damage to the stability of the US. I'm sure he also hoped it would directly benefit him with some of things you're talking about, but ultimately, the US is far worse off from having 4 years of trump than just about any other 2016 republicans candidate that had a shot. It wasn't a total flawless victory for Putin, but it was a victory.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  6. #70386
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Also keep in mind that even though places like worldometers is showing Russia's death toll from COVID to be around 150k, the reality is much, much worse. Their excess death numbers are more than three times as high, nearing 500k.


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  7. #70387
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Or the racist bootstrapper vote didn’t change at all. Sure he might’ve grabbed a few independents but there are people who will vote against the incumbent party because that’s what they do. A racist business man running for office isn’t new or radical.

    The Dems need to do the work and make sure people get up and vote. Obama was good at that. Stacy Abrams is also good at that. Hillary was not. She thought she was going to run a victory lap because her opponent was a clown and many people didn’t want to get off the coach because they thought she wouldn’t need their vote. 2016 just showed you can’t take anything for granted.
    Its not new or radical, yet it worked that time.

    Make no mistake, if not for the giant shit show that Trump let covid turn into, Biden likely would have lost too.

    Trump was different candidate all the way around then we've had in my lifetime. He got independent votes without any independent or centrist planks in his platform. If you think that all adds up to just Hillary thinking she was going to win (even though much of her platform was centrist), that's your prerogative, but its one that doesn't account for the reality of it all.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

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    Quote Originally Posted by AryuFate View Post
    Don't worry, centrists always win. Mike Pence will run against Biden next election.
    All evidence to the contrary. Obama might have been a centrist policy wise, but he was far left in the eyes of the conservative - I mean, can you spell black man? The first black president of the united states was anything but a centrist choice (at the time of the election).

    And where have you been the last four years? Trump was the most neo-con hitler-esque candidate we've seen, possibly ever. Even Nixon's "people" were distancing themselves from Trump.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-07-15 at 06:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I’m gonna go take a shower. Have fun wondering why anyone would possibly be talking about Trump.
    Well I guess this explains why not one, but two shillbots showed up at the same time in an attempt to preemptively derail the thread. Always good to know we can count on them to let us know when big news bombshells are about to drop by their - admittedly poor - efforts to try and obfuscate them.

  10. #70390
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm not sure why you're thinking I'm saying that was the plan
    I wasn't. It wasn't very clear. You brought up the COVID death count and I added to the context.

  11. #70391
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Its not new or radical, yet it worked that time.

    Make no mistake, if not for the giant shit show that Trump let covid turn into, Biden likely would have lost too.

    Trump was different candidate all the way around then we've had in my lifetime. He got independent votes without any independent or centrist planks in his platform. If you think that all adds up to just Hillary thinking she was going to win (even though much of her platform was centrist), that's your prerogative, but its one that doesn't account for the reality of it all.
    Trump did no better than Romney or McCain. He got the exact same amount of votes if you factor in population growth. That’s reality. These alleged independents are phantoms. They’re people who like to label themselves “independent” but always seem to have “criticisms” of only one party.

    Hilary lost votes compared to both Obama elections. Arguably the same for Kerry and Gore. She did not inspire people to get off the couch. She did not lose voters to Trump since Trump did not see any gains in GOP voter numbers that’s greater than population growth.

  12. #70392
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Trump did no better than Romney or McCain. He got the exact same amount of votes if you factor in population growth. That’s reality. These alleged independents are phantoms. They’re people who like to label themselves “independent” but always seem to have “criticisms” of only one party.

    Hilary lost votes compared to both Obama elections. Arguably the same for Kerry and Gore. She did not inspire people to get off the couch. She did not lose voters to Trump since Trump did not see any gains in GOP voter numbers that’s greater than population growth.
    How are you figuring up the population growth = new votes?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I wasn't. It wasn't very clear. You brought up the COVID death count and I added to the context.
    Ahh, fair enough.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  13. #70393
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    How are you figuring up the population growth = new votes?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote...out_statistics

    The number of votes a candidate can get potentially gain can either come from other candidates or from a gain in population. Trump got a few million more than Romney but voter turn out also increased by 7.5 million people. He was guaranteed 40-50% of that from the GOP voting bloc. And that’s exactly what he got.

    The idea that an Obama voter would vote for Trump sounds like horse shit. A more compelling idea is that same Obama voter didn’t vote at all while new potential GOP voters emerged. The latter group didn’t arrive in particularly large numbers. Just enough of them in a few key states to carry the EC. I’m sure you can dig up a few anecdotes that say the opposite but this question won’t be answered properly until people aren’t allowed to register as independents any more.

  14. #70394
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote...out_statistics

    The number of votes a candidate can get potentially gain can either come from other candidates or from a gain in population. Trump got a few million more than Romney but voter turn out also increased by 7.5 million people. He was guaranteed 40-50% of that from the GOP voting bloc. And that’s exactly what he got.

    The idea that an Obama voter would vote for Trump sounds like horse shit. A more compelling idea is that same Obama voter didn’t vote at all while new potential GOP voters emerged. The latter group didn’t arrive in particularly large numbers. Just enough of them in a few key states to carry the EC. I’m sure you can dig up a few anecdotes that say the opposite but this question won’t be answered properly until people aren’t allowed to register as independents any more.
    It either doesn't make sense or I'm missing something.

    If the percentage of voting age voters that voted in 2016 was a normal/expected increase from 2012, then that means the Repubs gained all the new votes, not just that the Dems lost votes....unless the Repubs gained the votes lost by the Dems plus a normal percentage of the new votes.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  15. #70395
    Wednesday's report:

    35,447 new cases, about 18k more than two weeks ago. This shit again...

    Top 5:

    Fuck Florida (worldometers has them at 6,425 new cases).
    California: 3,886 new cases; 25 deaths
    Texas: 2,610 new cases; 29 deaths
    Missouri: 2,240 new cases; no deaths reported--but plenty presumed
    Louisiana: 1,936 new cases; 10 deaths

    Georgia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, North Carolina and New York round out the top 10, with New York still coming in under 1k. Things are very quickly beginning to look dire again, which was predicted by many experts (including Fauci) when vaccination rates started stalling out in certain areas of the country. I'll be honest and say I didn't expect for us to be over 30k so quickly, but here we are. Very real possibility of being over 40k again by the end of the week. Delta's nothing to fuck around with and now a lot of people are finding out. Summer's going to end much sooner for a lot of them, and for some of them it'll be permanent.

    374 deaths is over 50 more than two weeks ago and brings the total to 623,838. Even without any death totals out of Missouri it's starting to look like the national total is probably headed back up. I'm cautiously optimistic that the vaccination efforts thus far by Biden's administration will keep us from hitting the grisly numbers from the end of the TRUMP SHITSHOW, but if things don't turn around quickly we might creep our way back up to 1k territory. Worldometers has Florida at 71 on the day, more than double the second-highest of 29 from Texas.

    Related news:

    Back to school as COVID worsens

    "Sicker, younger, quicker" is how hospital executive Steve Edwards explained a sudden explosion this month in COVID patients in Springfield, Missouri.
    COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy Rates Still High in Some States

    The hesitancy that remains in parts of the country is alarming as COVID-19 cases spike in a majority of states. States seeing some of the highest increases in cases include Alabama, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Nevada and Tennessee, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. In some of those states – Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee – vaccine hesitancy rates are higher than 15%, according to the Census Bureau.
    Can you get long-haul Covid if you're fully vaccinated? Here's what doctors say--TL;DR: Very rarely. Yet another reason to get the vaccine. COVID is no laughing matter; long-COVID even less so.

    Stay safe, folks.

  16. #70396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Related news:

    Back to school as COVID worsens
    "Sicker, younger, quicker" is how hospital executive Steve Edwards explained a sudden explosion this month in COVID patients in Springfield, Missouri.
    COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy Rates Still High in Some States
    The hesitancy that remains in parts of the country is alarming as COVID-19 cases spike in a majority of states. States seeing some of the highest increases in cases include Alabama, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Nevada and Tennessee, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. In some of those states – Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee – vaccine hesitancy rates are higher than 15%, according to the Census Bureau.
    Can you get long-haul Covid if you're fully vaccinated? Here's what doctors say--TL;DR: Very rarely. Yet another reason to get the vaccine. COVID is no laughing matter; long-COVID even less so.

    Stay safe, folks.
    Are you seeing anything positive about a vaccine for under 12 year olds? I've been watching the news and the best I've seen is "maybe September". Especially with COVID making another round and the Delta variant bolstering those spikes.

  17. #70397
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It either doesn't make sense or I'm missing something.

    If the percentage of voting age voters that voted in 2016 was a normal/expected increase from 2012, then that means the Repubs gained all the new votes, not just that the Dems lost votes....unless the Repubs gained the votes lost by the Dems plus a normal percentage of the new votes.
    The best example I can think of is 1984 when Reagan pasted Mondale. Voter turn out increased by 6 million people but Reagan went well beyond that. He gained from both population and at the Dems expense and by a huge margin.

    Trump did not do that. He got the racist bootstrapper vote. Who also voted for Romney because who else are they going to vote for?

    To be fair Gary Johnson did unusually well and probably siphoned off some NeverTrump votes. And maybe even some Hilary votes. Jill Stein also did a lot better but not as good as Johnson.

  18. #70398
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Are you seeing anything positive about a vaccine for under 12 year olds? I've been watching the news and the best I've seen is "maybe September". Especially with COVID making another round and the Delta variant bolstering those spikes.
    They really can't print a conclusion until the study is completed. And since it wasn't started until later, it won't finish sooner.

    EDIT:
    Just from today...

    CNN: Why a Covid-19 vaccine isn't available for kids yet
    Americans 12 and older can get a Covid-19 vaccine, but younger children are still waiting.

    With many schools across the United States now just weeks from reopening for the fall semester, pharmaceutical companies Pfizer and Moderna are still doing clinical trials to see how coronavirus vaccines work in children under 12 -- if they're safe and what the right dose should be.

    Meanwhile, all but four states are seeing an increasing trend in cases, with doctors describing patients who are younger and sicker than what they saw in the winter.

    The surge in cases has many parents of children under 12 asking when their little and not-so-little ones can get the vaccine. The answer is that it's going to be months, if not longer. It's not as simple as administering available adult doses to younger people.

    "I understand parents' concern in wanting their children to get vaccinated, but we have to make sure we're doing the best and safest thing for children," Dr. Chip Walter, a pediatrician at Duke University and an investigator for the Pfizer trials, said.


    When we might be able to vaccinate children under 12
    Pfizer's vaccine study is enrolling more than 4,600 children in three age groups: 5-to-11-year-olds; 2-to-5-year-olds; and babies 6 months up to age 2.

    Data for children 5 to 11 could come sometime in September and depending on the findings, the company told CNN it could ask the US Food and Drug Administration to authorize emergency use of the vaccine that same month.

    Data for 2-to-5-year-olds could arrive soon after. For the youngest children, Pfizer said it could potentially get data in October or November, and shortly thereafter ask the FDA to authorize emergency use.

    Emergency use considerations by the FDA can take several weeks, meaning a vaccine for younger children likely won't be available until late fall or even next year.

    Moderna's vaccine study is enrolling about 6,700 children ages 6 months to 11 years. It declined to provide a timeline to CNN on when it could potentially have trial data results.

    "The companies have said the fall ... I'd be surprised if they can move that quickly, although I suppose it's possible," Dr. Peter Hotez, a vaccinologist and dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, said.

    "I can't imagine that we'd be in a position to even consider how to use these vaccines until the very end of the calendar year of 2021, going into the first quarter of 2022," said Dr. Buddy Creech, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University and one of the lead investigators for Moderna's pediatric Covid-19 vaccine. "I love that we're riding the success of how quickly we were able to get a vaccine for adults, but we've just got to be patient."


    'Children are not just little adults'
    A year and a half into the pandemic, parents might wonder why isn't there a vaccine for younger children yet. After all, some young kids are just as big as older children for whom the vaccine is authorized.

    "Boy, have I had this discussion with several parents," said Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University and a vaccine adviser to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "It doesn't have anything to do with size. It has everything to do with maturity of the immune system, and that doesn't correlate one-to-one with the size of the child."

    Young children may need different doses. They may need a different number of doses. They may not need as many doses.

    "We don't know for young kids," Creech said. "Children are not just little adults."

    ...
    It goes on from there, but that covers the basics.
    Last edited by PhaelixWW; 2021-07-15 at 07:51 PM.


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  19. #70399
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    They really can't print a conclusion until the study is completed. And since it wasn't started until later, it won't finish sooner.
    Damn you federal government for actually taking the time to test these things rather than just do whatever is politically convenient! *shakesfist* /s

    Seriously though if there's a bright spot in this COVID shitshow it's that Katalin Kariko's work has managed to change the potential of modern vaccination for the better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #70400
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Well, there's more from that new book. One of the new books? Is there more than one?

    Kimberly Guilfoyle, Donald Trump Jr.'s girlfriend, who along with Trump Jr., Ivanka Trump and Eric Trump were present at the meeting, reportedly told the president that the crowd gathered to hear him speak was “reflecting the will of the people.”

    Senior White House officials Stephen Miller, Mark Meadows, Keith Kellogg and Eric Herschmann were also present in the room, according to the book.

    Ivanka Trump reportedly grew frustrated with the advice being given to her father and at one point said, “This is not right. It’s not right.”

    President Trump later called Pence, who was slated to oversee congressional certification of President Biden’s election win, and reportedly told him, “You don’t have the courage to make a hard decision.”

    According to the book, Pence had repeatedly attempted to explain that as vice president he did not the constitutional authority to block the certification of election results, as Trump wanted him to do.

    While listening to the phone call, Ivanka Trump reportedly said quietly to Kellogg, “Mike Pence is a good man.”

    “I know that,” Kellogg responded, according to the book, adding: "Let this ride. Take a deep breath. We’ll come back at it.”
    This is, again, groundwork for everyone to say "I was the only sane person in the WH" even though nobody actually did all that much. Ivanka whispering off-phone? Meaningless. Pence saying behind closed doors "I can't overthrow the government"? That's okay, but he didn't have the power so who cares. If he meant to stand up to Trump, he should have said publicly "Trump wants me to overthrow the goverment and I said no". What's the worst that could have happened? The election was already over, and Trump already sent a literal lynch mob to kill him.

    But, that's not the big quote of the day. It's time again for Guess the Speaker!

    What’s the point in having a convention or a political party more broadly if you can’t be bothered to define what it is you stand for? I found that contemptible
    "That could be literally anyone talking about the GOP."

    It's Tucker Carlson.

    "No fucking way."

    He gave an interview with TIME Magazine.

    In that interview, Carlson is flat-out asked if Biden won, and Carlson said Biden won a rigged election. Specifically, he said media and big tech censored the Republican Party, but he also said it was a lack of voter ID laws which, okay, if you can find how people voted illegally I'd back that play. We've looked. There wasn't any. And, yep, he hid behind "you can't prove there was fraud but you can't prove there wasn't therefore I'm right".

    But...

    He didn’t have much to say when I asked whether he thought the 45th President should run again. “Oh, I don’t know,” he said, as if he was bored even thinking about it. Enthusiasm for Trump, he suggested, was really just about conservative “dissidents” wanting to be “protected” from the left. He pointed to the fact that the party didn’t bother to develop a policy platform for the 2020 presidential election as evidence that Republicans had abdicated their political responsibilities. “That’s disgraceful, in my opinion,” he said. “What’s the point in having a convention or a political party more broadly if you can’t be bothered to define what it is you stand for? I found that contemptible.”
    First of all, I think he meant "deplorable".

    But then I'll remind everyone why there was no 2020 platform overhaul or update: they just said they were backing Trump.

    Carlson is a little too late taking offense to that, being a staunch and solid Trump supporter. This is the height of hypocrisy. The GOP takes the platform of "We'll do whatever Trump says" and Carlson says "The GOP lost because they didn't have a platform"? That's some hypocrite, gaslighting, blame-gaming bullshit right there.

    If the GOP had no platform other than "whateve Trump wants" then the lack of platform is Trump's fault. Blame Trump. (Carlson didn't, read the interview)

    Also, @Benggaul you might like this part, when asked if he'd gotten vaccinated, not only did Carlson refuse to answer, he reacted with offense. He compared it to being asked "do you have HIV?" and "what's your favorite sex position, and when were you last in it?"

    For the record, (a) no (b) the Reverse Graham Shower (c) last night, baby.

    Carlson spent the entire interview trying to deflect from points he couldn't counter/questions he couldn't answer, such as this:

    When I asked him why, for example, 23% of Republicans believe in the QAnon conspiracy theory, he immediately responded with a Tuckerist whataboutism. “What percentage of primary-voting Democrats believe that you can change your biological sex just by wishing it so?” he asked.
    but he forgot it wasn't his show. TIME Magazine has been at this for a fucking century and they don't hire incompetent interviewers. "He refused to answer this direct question" isn't doing Carlson any favors. In fact, it reads to me like the interview suspects he has been vaccinated, but doesn't want to admit it lest his fearmongered, conspiracy-injected audience hears it.

    Warning: Dad Joke

    Carlson knows that, if he ever said something sensible in his own echo chamber, he'd never hear the end of it

    But the big takeaway seems to be that Carlson, and the rest of the rabid fanbase (with or without cowboy hats) are looking for any excuse to make what happened to the Republican Party anything other than Trump's fault, despite due to their efforts the Republican Party becoming the Party of Trump. If we're lucky, the two will go feral and eat each other. More likely, the remaining classic Republicans and moderate conservatives will have to choose: flee the dying, zombiefied party like @Skroe or resigningly sigh and join the anti-logic anti-fact anti-truth dictator-in-training Trump crowd.

    Lucky for me, I don't have to worry about that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Adding this for fun: one of the murderous insurrectionists had their bail revoked.

    "What? They did more violence?"

    No...they hit on their parole officer, apparently.

    Probation officer Kendra Rennie testified Wednesday that Fellows had been "problematic" throughout their contact while he was released on bail. She said he had made sexual innuendos and frequently left her rambling, overly long voicemails. When he was asked to look for work, she said, he applied to Albany's FBI office, which she took to be sarcastic.

    One voicemail he left her on May 19, she said, referenced "the size of his genitalia and the performance of his genitalia."

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