Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

That was one of the more absurd mental gymnastic takes I've seen on here in awhile.

*ahem*

Not in the top ten in any of those lists: Illinois. Anyone trying to deflect with "But Illinois" is being disingenuous.

It has to be absurd. Anything to deflect from Florida being basically suicidal, leading the country in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

[Nellise]

That was one of the more absurd mental gymnastic takes I've seen on here in awhile.

Trump voters, by and large, are the reason for overall low vaccination rates. That was Breccia's point and it was obvious that was his point.

So the areas in Chicago with under 40% vaccination rates or the suburbs near me under 20% don't exist? They're certainly not Republican areas.

I couldn't care less what some tiny southern Illinois county's vaccination rate is. I care about the neighborhood a few miles from me.

[Breccia]

In yet more objective evidence that Trump supporters aren't taking COVID seriously, one of the murderous insurrectionists refused to wear a mask in court.

I believe I would not cause someone to die by not wearing a mask.

-- actual quote from someone in a literal lynch mob

The judge reportedly said that, if he continues to refuse, it'll be contempt of court and he'll be locked up until he follows the goddam rules.

The defendant who refused to wear a mask isn't actually from Florida, but he is from Texas, a state that voted for Trump and also has a poor COVID showing, because the two are highly correllated. Texas is the 2nd most in cases -- holy shit, that flipped in the last 12 hours, they now beat California -- #10 in cases per capita, #2 in hospitalizations, #9 in hospitalizations per capita, #2 in deaths, and #12 (whew!) in deaths per capita. Everything they're #2 in, Florida is #1 in, despite Florida having fewer people.

Because Florida is objectively that bad. Illinois, by contrast, is not. Anyone trying to deflect with "But Illinois" is a disingenuous poster.

[Bodakane]

So the areas in Chicago with under 40% vaccination rates or the suburbs near me under 20% don't exist? They're certainly not Republican areas.

I couldn't care less what some tiny southern Illinois county's vaccination rate is. I care about the neighborhood a few miles from me.

Stop.

Just. Stop.

#1. The point wasn't counties, the point was to show which side of the aisle is responsible for this bullshit, and the info that was provided just so happened to be classified by county, because its the easiest way to collect that data.

#2. He addressed your asinine gotcha attempt before you fucking made it. Which funnily enough, is verbally like getting a vaccine against your gotcha virus.

[Nellise]

Stop.

Just. Stop.

#1. The point wasn't counties, the point was to show which side of the aisle is responsible for this bullshit, and the info that was provided just so happened to be classified by county, because its the easiest way to collect that data.

You didn't answer my question. You don't believe they exist then? Or you believe those areas are Republican? Those areas have over 750k people living in them.

#2. He addressed your asinine gotcha attempt before you fucking made it. Which funnily enough, is verbally like getting a vaccine against your gotcha virus.

You mean he did his usual thing and didn't understand what I said and made up his own argument? Got me, I guess.

[Bodakane]

You didn't answer my question. You don't believe they exist then? Or you believe those areas are Republican?



You mean he did his usual thing and didn't understand what I said and made up his own argument? Got me, I guess.

Jesus fucking christ.

You are literally queefing an argument into existence that wasn't made prior and then want people to defend this made up argument. Then, when that wasn't batshit enough, you then went ahead and accused him of doing what you just did.

That's insane.
That's bad faith.

[pathora44]

Judging based on counties is pretty moronic. Trump won nearly 6 times as many counties as Biden last election. Cook County, Illinois alone has 5.15 million people in it. Suggesting that it is some monolithic entity with uniform vaccinations across it doesn't help anything. As shown in the zip code map, just in Chicago rates can range anywhere from about 30% to 70% and it's not because of a partisan divide. Ignoring what those communities with low vaccination rates in Democratic areas need (nearly 600k people live in zips with under 40% vaccinations in Chicago) because you believe only Republicans have low vaccination rates is putting politics above people's health, which I hope you're not doing.

The mistrust of doctors and the American health care amongst African Americans has to do with a long history of systemic racism in America towards African Americans. From the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, to stealing and profiting off the DNA of Henrietta Lacks and her descendants, to this day African Americans are generally the most mistreated and dismissed demographic by doctors. So I am far more understanding of the skepticism and mistrust African Americans have towards vaccines then say Trumpsters reveling in their own stupidity. Sycophant politicians, grifters on t.v. and idiots on Youtube screaming from the top of their lungs how vaccines will sterilize your womb, track you through 5G towers, is the equivalent of Nazi experimentation on the Jews, or screaming "FREEDOM" from the top of their lungs while over 630 thousand Americans are dead with more on the way.

So while not obviously 100% accurate, and really nothing is, the vast majority of least vaccinated counties just so happen to be deep red counties because OMG their death cult leader and his cronies scream all day that "masks are useless, the vaccine will kill you, the flu is worst and "FREEDUMB MY BODY MY CHOICE!" with a straight face.

[beanman12345]

I think the point was, that $100 could sway minorities into getting the shot which is true based on polling, though maybe I'm reading that wrong. Republicans are dead set against the vaccine so no incentive other than possible unemployment will sway them.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pan...can-vaccinated

Regardless, anyone who is skeptical, or argues online they are, I don't care what political party they are, they are dumb af.

[Gorsameth]

There has been a lot of scaremongering surrounding blood clots and heart problems (you may have seen some of the disingenuous posters referencing them in a few threads on these forums) that has put a lot of people off the vaccine. Experts have said that you're actually more likely to get those issues without the vaccine and the "heart issues" the fraction of a percentage of people get from the vaccines are both mild and temporary, but the damage has already been done.

Edit: In fact, here's a link with some useful info about the heart "risk":

Israel reports link between rare cases of heart inflammation and COVID-19 vaccination in young men



There has been a lot of anti-vaxx rhetoric surrounding this that's frightening a few non-anti-vaxxers. And, as has been pointed out, it's nothing to fear, ultimately.

Its because clueless people get this list of possible risks from the vaccine shoved in their face with no context as a scare tactic without realising they could grab any random bottle from their medicine cabinet and find a similar list of just as dangerous sounding side effects and yet they have been popping those pills for decades without worry. because "lol who reads the warning labels".

[gondrin]

"I don't want to be a guinea pig!"
"You already are. You've just volunteered to be in the control group."

Eh, I tell them I'm getting the vaccine so I can have superpowers. I know when it first rolled out I wanted to see if there were any major unknown side effects that had more then a small percentage chance of getting it. After a couple of months, nothing big came out other then the standard fare of sore arm or mild side effects if you weren't allergic to it. Wednesday is when I get my second dosage.

I hope I get the power of magnetism like people say you can get. Being able to control things magnetically would be awesome.

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Its because clueless people get this list of possible risks from the vaccine shoved in their face with no context as a scare tactic without realising they could grab any random bottle from their medicine cabinet and find a similar list of just as dangerous sounding side effects and yet they have been popping those pills for decades without worry. because "lol who reads the warning labels".

Someone needs to show them a bottle of Aspirin or Tylenol. Aspirin can cause stomach ulcers and Tylenol(if you take more then 3000mg of it) can cause liver damage and possible failure. Those are the 2 most popular OTC pain medicine.

[Santti]

Anyone who needs a laugh should check out Madison Cawthorn’s recent apology notes he hand wrote. A bit less funny, but still not without a punchline, he tried to board a plane with a loaded glock. He now faces the consequences including losing his TSA status that allows him to get through security faster.

Maybe it was his emotional support gun?

[Benggaul]

Friday's report:

99,470 new cases; over 27k more than last Friday.

Top 10:

Fuck Florida (over 17k according to worldometers).
Texas: 13,603 new cases; 65 deaths
California: 11,004 new cases; 44 deaths
Louisiana: 5,313 new cases; 31 deaths
Missouri: 4,217 new cases; still not reporting deaths
Georgia: 3,604 new cases; 11 deaths
North Carolina: 3,199 new cases; 17 deaths
New York: 2,850 new cases; 7 deaths
Arkansas: 2,544 new cases; 13 deaths
Illinois: 2,348 new cases; 8 deaths

Expanded to top 10 because cases are skyrocketing and we could probably benefit from a broader picture. There were 26 states with over 1k posted. Florida continues being Florida. Texas continues "mastering" their response to COVID. California's case count continues to increase, slowly but steadily. Eventually I expect them to reach the number 1 spot just by virtue of their population. Their positivity rose to just above 5 (5.4%) which puts them over the (relatively) safe threshold, but they're still a far cry from Texas' 14.9%, Florida's 17.9% or Alabama's 19.7%. New England still holds the top 5 best positivity rates in the nation ranging from Maine at 1.6% to New York at 2.5%. New England also has the best vaccination rates overall. This isn't a coincidence. Because there was a discussion about the counties at one point--for no real reason--here's a map of the risk level at the county level:

Heyyyy look at where the bulk of the high-risk counties are. Are there some that are Democrat-heavy? Of course there are. Do they represent the majority? Not by a long shot.

419 deaths is nearly 100 more than last Friday and brings the total to 629,064. I'm not really sure what is up with Missouri's refusal to publish daily death totals and if anyone State-side would care to look into it I'd love an answer. Worldometers is usually pretty good about finding the numbers wherever they're available, but maybe someone's slacking there. Most of the time I can't look myself due to US-sites not adhering to EU laws (understandably). At any rate, Florida's up top again (75) with nearly double California's total. Texas is sandwiched in-between. I have to imagine Missouri's not far behind given this latest wave basically started there and their new case totals have only continued to rise.

Related news:

New Orleans EMS can't keep up with calls due to the Covid-19 surge as mayor restores a mask mandate--Louisiana is now listed as "very high" risk, and so another city is reinstating mask mandates in the face of rising numbers. What's DeathSantis doing?...

Florida governor signs order letting parents decide if kids wear masks in schools--Ohhhh, he's washing his hands of responsibility rather than do what he should have done a month ago (at least) and put mask mandates in effect. And not just that, this order forbids schools from making masks mandatory. So he's still content to continue killing off Floridians. Fuck DeathSantis and fuck Florida.

Florida coronavirus cases jump 50 percent in one week--When your state is consistently doing worse off than most or all other states in the nation and you still want to dig your feet in and refuse not only to implement mask mandates but ban schools and businesses from implementing their own you should be charged with negligent manslaughter at the least.

Stay safe, folks.

[Nellise]

I think the point was, that $100 could sway minorities into getting the shot which is true based on polling, though maybe I'm reading that wrong. Republicans are dead set against the vaccine so no incentive other than possible unemployment will sway them.

Right, that was my initial point, that there are places where the $100 could work because it's not just Republican areas that have low vaccination rates. It wasn't meant as a controversial statement.

That was followed up by someone going "No, it's Republicans" with an article using county data and I pointed out a major flaw with such a broad approach to showing low vaccination areas with actual data and references. That article was from several weeks ago, so it wasn't current news and seemed posted in an attempt to directly respond to me saying that there are non-Republican areas with low vaccinations rates. If that wasn't what was intended and it was just a coincidence it followed my post, I apologize for misunderstanding. But I still think it's helpful to understand that not all low vaccination areas are just Republicans because we need everybody on board.

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Heyyyy look at where the bulk of the high-risk counties are. Are there some that are Democrat-heavy? Of course there are. Do they represent the majority? Not by a long shot.

Not arguing politics, just want to get your idea about that last summer had a nearly identical southern wave at almost the same time. Is it simply coincidence it's following the same pattern or is there a change in behavior that facilitates spread during the summer in the south? The south is almost the opposite of the north with more people inside because it's oppressively hot and humid during the summer. I went to college in Houston where it's 95+ from April to October and even at night it doesn't cool down much there, so most of our outdoor activities were done in the fall and winter and we hid inside during the summer. And while we won't know for a little bit yet, if the upper Midwest starts a surge in the next month or two it's definitely following the same patterns as last year.

[Benggaul]

Not arguing politics, just want to get your idea about that last summer had a nearly identical southern wave at almost the same time. Is it simply coincidence it's following the same pattern or is there a change in behavior that facilitates spread during the summer in the south? The south is almost the opposite of the north with more people inside because it's oppressively hot and humid during the summer. I went to college in Houston where it's 95+ from April to October and even at night it doesn't cool down much there, so most of our outdoor activities were done in the fall and winter and we hid inside during the summer. And while we won't know for a little bit yet, if the upper Midwest starts a surge in the next month or two it's definitely following the same patterns as last year.

As I've stated a few times already, no, it's not a coincidence--there's been a wave in just about every season. And if you care to take a look at the following graphs, you'll see how this isn't "a nearly identical" situation to last year:


Note how much more sharply the latest waves are increasing in both states. Also note that there were waves for each season and the worst were in fall/winter--where you say everyone is doing most of their outdoor activities.

Compare this with New York where vaccination rates are high and ever since the initial outbreak last Spring they've had mask mandates and other restrictions:


Despite Delta being far more contagious New York is doing far better this time around than it did during last year's waves. Mandates, restrictions and vaccinations matter. I'm not really interested in continuing this asinine debate further. By every objective measure states that don't take precautions do worse--regardless of season.

[Nellise]

Despite Delta being far more contagious New York is doing far better this time around than it did during last year's waves. Mandates, restrictions and vaccinations matter. I'm not really interested in continuing this asinine debate further. By every objective measure states that don't take precautions do worse--regardless of season.

It's not an asinine debate to try to determine if there are patterns. The reason the CDC re-implemented the mask mandate was because an outbreak in Massachusetts where 74% of infected people were fully vaccinated. If the delta variant is breaking through that significantly, we need to do more than just solely depend on vaccinations. If there are patterns, precautions can be implemented in a smarter way, and perhaps break the pattern. Nobody is happy with the precautions even when they do them, so trying to learn ways we can lessen their impact is not asinine.

Obviously this is the wrong forum to try to bring nuance to the situation, so I'll leave it be.

[Fugus]

It's not an asinine debate to try to determine if there are patterns. The reason the CDC re-implemented the mask mandate was because an outbreak in Massachusetts where 74% of infected people were fully vaccinated. If the delta variant is breaking through that significantly, we need to do more than just solely depend on vaccinations. If there are patterns, precautions can be implemented in a smarter way, and perhaps break the pattern. Nobody is happy with the precautions even when they do them, so trying to learn ways we can lessen their impact is not asinine.

Obviously this is the wrong forum to try to bring nuance to the situation, so I'll leave it be.

Thanks for the link, didn't realize the Delta variant could go after the vaccinated so much. That being said, the vaccination still is superior to not getting it from the data we have as even they get it, the symptoms are reduced. But we need to figure out a better vaccine if it is breaking through that much.

[Zan15]

Florida governor signs order letting parents decide if kids wear masks in schools--Ohhhh, he's washing his hands of responsibility rather than do what he should have done a month ago (at least) and put mask mandates in effect. And not just that, this order forbids schools from making masks mandatory. So he's still content to continue killing off Floridians. Fuck DeathSantis and fuck Florida.

.

Why doesn't Florida allow food and healthcare workers to only wash their hands after pooping "if they want too". Freedom right? since you brought up washing of the hands.

Guess doctors doing surgery should also have the right not to wear mask and if an infection happens, whelp you can't sue anymore!!!

[Kaleredar]

Why doesn't Florida allow food and healthcare workers to only wash their hands after pooping "if they want too". Freedom right? since you brought up washing of the hands.

Guess doctors doing surgery should also have the right not to wear mask and if an infection happens, whelp you can't sue anymore!!!

I mean it's also illegal to drive without wearing a seat belt, and literally the only danger you pose is to yourself with that one. Whereas it's not too difficult to argue that not wearing a mask not only endangers oneself, but also others. So there's obviously no consistent logic being applied.

It's the republican "Pretend... no, FORCE, everything to look normal so people can't tell what a bad job we're doing!" mantra.

[Benggaul]

Obviously this is the wrong forum to try to bring nuance to the situation, so I'll leave it be.

Oh fuck off with this bullshit. Several of us, myself included, have been saying since the start that we need to do more than just rely on vaccinations, which is why I've said repeatedly to WEAR YOUR FUCKING MASKS even if vaccinated. Also, that study came out yesterday and that wasn't the point you've been making all week; you've just moved the goalposts to make it your point now.

As far as the study itself goes, Massachusetts is currently ranked 19th in the nation in terms of lowest infected per capita (which includes the start of the pandemic when that region was hit extremely hard--check out Rhode Island's per capita) and has the second-highest vaccination rate but also has more people crammed into the relatively small state (nearly 7 million) than two-thirds of the rest of the country. There were always going to be breakout cases, and the more people packed together (as is also the case in LA, California and New York City) the higher the risk and greater the need for masks/social distancing/restrictions. Restrictions were relaxed in Massachusetts once they passed a certain vaccination threshold and I was against that happening at the time (as with Vermont) which I posted here. Further, the positivity in Massachusetts remains at only 2.1%. One of the lowest in the country. Florida is pushing 20%; one of the highest. If you want to continue to say "omg the precautions aren't helping because all states are doing bad" then we'll keep pointing out all of the ways in which you're wrong.

The facts remain the same:

1) Vaccinated are far more protected than unvaccinated and even if they contract the virus there is a far greater chance of it being mild without requiring any hospitalization.
2) States like Florida and Texas where there are either no precautions or low vaccination rates or a combination of the two are doing worse off (by nearly every metric including hospitalizations/deaths) than those like New York where stricter precautions/mask mandates and high vacc rates are present. Or "counties" if you want to get that granular, though I've already shown how that trend's going.
3) The longer we go with too few people vaccinated the more chances there are for the virus to mutate to something that fully overcomes the current vaccines and therefore the more pressing need for precautions against transmission (i.e. mask mandates)--something primarily GOP "leadership" appears adamantly against thanks to a year of Trump telling everyone it's no big deal and the country should remain 100% open.
4) The Trump administration made no-brainer shit like wearing masks and getting the vaccine political and their ignorant (willfully or otherwise) base are following them into the grave--but not before endangering everyone else.

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In other "GOP are the problem" news:

Georgia Secretary of State Declares Pandemic 'Gone' and Expanded Voting Access Over

Gosh I can't imagine why he wants expanded voting access rescinded in Georgia. Also, he's dead wrong about the pandemic being over as even the statistics from his own state demonstrate. Georgia is back up at levels not seen since the beginning of the year with a positivity rate of 12.9% and fewer than 40% of the state fully vaccinated. Hospitalizations are up by 50%.

"Gone". Fuck the GOP.

[Nellise]

If you want to continue to say "omg the precautions aren't helping because all states are doing bad" then we'll keep pointing out all of the ways in which you're wrong.

Obviously I worded things terribly wrong if that was the implication I was giving. My point I clearly failed to make was that Florida should have been an India/Brazil level disaster (I don't believe either country's "official" numbers) with how old its population is and lack of mitigations, but it never did over the past year (it still might, but we don't know that yet), while states with strong mitigations still had significant cases and deaths, less so, but still not as good as we would've liked. So what caused Florida to not be as bad as feared and what caused other places to not do better than we hoped? What's causing the waves when policies haven't been changing? I haven't seen answers to some of my questions other places so I'd hoped bringing them up would generate a discussion where I could learn either here or from links that others might have given. But there seems to be little discussion here of anything other than ranting about Republicans.

To me, there's no point screaming into the wind about Republicans being dumb poopyheads over and over. We know what they're going to do. I don't have to hear about them over and over when the story isn't changing. It's time to work with the people we can reach (my point about non-Republican communities with low vaccinations), and try to mitigate the damage the Republican are going to do. Or figure out some new way to reach them since what's been going on hasn't been working. This forum, I understand now, is not interested in that type of discussion.