Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[solinari6]

Tbh I wish they'd just go back to downing bleach at this point

Seriously, we are only getting to heard immunity 2 ways. Non-maskers and non-vaxxers either:
1) get the damn shot and mask up
2) die

Obviously I'd prefer the option that didn't kill off innocent bystanders, and drag this out another year. But we're stuck at the mercy of these idiots, so what can we do?

[Breccia]

Trump supporter behavior is maybe the best example in human history of how far people will go to avoid admitting they were wrong.

The term "evolution" is cropping up. I've said for years that Trump's rabid fanbase would rather die than admit they made a mistake. At the time, it was pretty metaphorical. We're seeing deathbed recantings, or sobbing statements from greiving families, that have made it very literal.

By the way, while "let's use this livestock drug to battle COVID" seems to be trending like a video of a donkey getting its head scratched by a koala, it's not all that new. The FDA was warning people back in May, apparently.

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

I mean, hard to miss that headline's intent.

Here’s What You Need to Know about Ivermectin

• FDA has not approved ivermectin for use in treating or preventing COVID-19 in humans. Ivermectin tablets are approved at very specific doses for some parasitic worms, and there are topical (on the skin) formulations for head lice and skin conditions like rosacea. Ivermectin is not an anti-viral (a drug for treating viruses).
• Taking large doses of this drug is dangerous and can cause serious harm.
• If you have a prescription for ivermectin for an FDA-approved use, get it from a legitimate source and take it exactly as prescribed.
• Never use medications intended for animals on yourself. Ivermectin preparations for animals are very different from those approved for humans.

Yes, that was months ago and yes, maybe some more recent studies have come out. But my favorite part is when the FDA has to point out these are drugs for livestock. Not only are the doses waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off, but the "inactive" ingredient list doesn't translate between species. Ingredients that kill tiny tiny worms don't work on viruses, which despite what you remember from the 8th-grade science class you failed out of in Arkansas L-Mentry School, viruses aren't tiny tiny worms. We shouldn't still have this discussion as recently as three days ago.

Did your doctor prescribe it? No? Then don't fucking take it. The studies it's in or not in are not really relevant until your doctor hands you a bottle and says "use these". Do we have to also say "stop shooting up with bleach" too?

So until
(a) there is a specific, solid study that says "yes, it helps, either by itself or with a friend" and
(b) the FDA signs off -- at least in emergency situations, which half the country is in, and
(c) and your doctor hands you a bottle and says "here, take this"
then stop listening to some random guy on TV and listen to what your doctor says. Which, spoiler alert, is probably "get the vaccine".

[Benggaul]

this study is not conclusive, because it is not a direct refutationnto the findings of those weaker studies.

You mean those studies that keep getting retracted?

I would love a large-scale study that covers those additional variables. That way, we do have a true conclusion.

I mean, sure. What I would love is for people to wait until an actual study does the science before leaping to conclusions and gulping down various snake oils, but here we are.

[Machismo]

You mean those studies that keep getting retracted?



I mean, sure. What I would love is for people to wait until an actual study does the science before leaping to conclusions and gulping down various snake oils, but here we are.

I even mentioned the one getting retracted. Good for those guys who caught the lies.

There's a reason I'm not popping Ivermectin, because the science just isn't there, not yet.

And it may never be there to show that it works.

[Benggaul]

I even mentioned the one getting retracted. Good for those guys who caught the lies.

There's a reason I'm not popping Ivermectin, because the science just isn't there, not yet.

And it may never be there to show that it works.

Hard to prove a negative, but c'mon, it's been pretty thoroughly studied at this point...

Ivermectin (Still) Lacks Scientific Support as a COVID-19 Drug

“The hype around ivermectin is driven by some studies where the effect size for ivermectin is frankly not credible,” Paul Garner, the coordinating editor of the Cochrane Infectious Diseases Group, says in a statement. “Careful appraisal is the cornerstone of Cochrane’s work, and with such extreme public demands for a drug to work during the pandemic, it remains vital that we hold onto our scientific principles to guide care.”

The team’s final analysis included 14 randomized controlled trials with a total of 1,678 adults. Six of the studies were double-blinded and placebo-controlled—factors considered to improve the quality of evidence in drug trials. Nine of the 14 studies focused on moderate COVID-19 cases in hospital settings, four on mild cases in outpatients, and one on the use of ivermectin as a preventive medicine.

The team identified an additional 38 studies that failed to meet the review’s inclusion criteria, mainly because they contained problematic comparisons or data, or otherwise didn’t meet scientific standards for strong evidence. For example, nearly a third of the studies evaluated ivermectin alongside other treatments that varied between different groups of patients, making it difficult to extract the effect of ivermectin, specifically, from the data. Several studies classified people as COVID-19 patients without testing to make sure they had the disease with a PCR or antigen test.

One of the excluded studies, a widely cited paper first posted late last year on the preprint server Research Square, was withdrawn a couple weeks ago following allegations of data manipulation. The study, led by researchers in Egypt, claimed to have found a dramatic effect of ivermectin treatment on COVID-19 outcomes. However, researchers identified multiple inconsistencies in the data, The Guardian reported in July, particularly regarding the numbers of patients and their dates of hospital admission.

One patient was even reported to have left the hospital on the “non-existent date of 31/06/2020,” Jack Lawrence, a medical student in London who identified problems in the paper, tells The Guardian.

Another study that was not included in the Cochrane review, this one carried out in Argentina, has come under increased scrutiny from scientists in the last few days after epidemiologist and blogger Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz documented multiple inconsistencies—including numbers of patients that don’t add up and implausible effect sizes—on Twitter. “As far as interventional observational trials go, this is probably the worst one I’ve ever seen,” he writes.

There are studies ongoing, but so far none seem to have shown any credible effect ivermectin has with regards to treating COVID--with or without a combination of other meds. So let's not even give credit to that theory until it's actually proven by reliable studies, hmm? Until then it's just another piece of junk logic in a heap of wishful thinking and we shouldn't even be suggesting that it might help.

[Machismo]

Hard to prove a negative, but c'mon, it's been pretty thoroughly studied at this point...

Ivermectin (Still) Lacks Scientific Support as a COVID-19 Drug



There are studies ongoing, but so far none seem to have shown any credible effect ivermectin has with regards to treating COVID--with or without a combination of other meds. So let's not even give credit to that theory until it's actually proven by reliable studies, hmm? Until then it's just another piece of junk logic in a heap of wishful thinking and we shouldn't even be suggesting that it might help.

Once again, other studies have been done (very small ones) that show it being effective when combined with multiple medications. I have even pointed out these issues, like sample sizes, and improper control groups.

The vast majority of the people pushing these studies that showed the benefits, clearly aren't experts at conducting studies.

As for "proving a negative" that's the problem with trying to test multiple variables. It either significantly cuts into your sample size, or you get muddied/incomplete data.

Do you want to take this to the Covid thread, this seems out of place here?

[Breccia]

Seven Capitol police who survived the murderous insurrection have sued Trump, Roger Stone, the Proud Boys, and a few other people.

They claim that they acted together.

Now, I'm guessing the point of this lawsuit isn't necessarily to get money or an admission of fault, but for enough probable cause for subpoenas to look for exactly such communication. If any of these groups conspired with any other, @cubby back me up here, then RICO comes to town, and everyone gets to use said communications in their own legal and civil matters.

Incidentally, the lawsuit uses the term “force, intimidation and threats” with regard to holding back Congress from certifiying, which means, yes, they're saying under oath Trump is a literal terrorist. That's way up there with what Giulian and Powell said, by the way, so expect a Trump countersuit. Problem is...if they countersue, they might have to deal with the case on the merits.

"I object to being called a terrorist! No way did I conspire with the people who attacked the Capitol!"
"Oh, so you'll turn over your records?"
"Fuck, no!"

Powell has already tried the "nobody would take me seriously" but I don't think these law enforcement members will do that. I think they want to be taken seriously. I think being nearly murdered has a tendency to do that.

Trump will do whatever is in his power to avoid taking the stand, which means a countersuit is questionable. However, he will fight this lawsuit and the subpoenas it attempts like his life depends on it.

[cubby]

Seven Capitol police who survived the murderous insurrection have sued Trump, Roger Stone, the Proud Boys, and a few other people.

They claim that they acted together.

Now, I'm guessing the point of this lawsuit isn't necessarily to get money or an admission of fault, but for enough probable cause for subpoenas to look for exactly such communication. If any of these groups conspired with any other, @cubby back me up here, then RICO comes to town, and everyone gets to use said communications in their own legal and civil matters.

This is a great move for a number of reasons.

First off, all the information that the FBI collected can be subpoenaed - which means all that data the FBI found will become essentially public knowledge, including communications from Trump to various government and private groups. Discovery is a fantastic tool if used well.

Second, these civil suits can be used by law enforcement, so if new info comes to light (and yes, civil suits can discover information that law enforcement might not, or cannot, find), we could see new or further criminal charges.

Third, civil suits go before juries, and the venue is D.C., 90%+ democrat and pissed-off-at-Trump/etc, and a civil suit has a much smaller threshold for evidence admission, and a much lower limit on liability. We could see several suits coming seeking monetary damages from Trump and everyone. And juries would be happy to hand over Trump's money to those capitol police officers.

Finally, RICO - the holy grail of getting Trump. While it's definitely possible here, I have my doubts on it working. Mainly because the FBI recently came out with their report on the lack of coordinated communication between Trump and various private assclown groups regarding the Terrorist Insurrection. It pains me to say it, but if the FBI put that report out, under the Biden administration, it would be hard to argue with - because the FBI/DoJ would have access to that kind of info/data, something the civil suits wouldn't be able to beat.

[Breccia]

Finally, RICO - the holy grail of getting Trump. While it's definitely possible here, I have my doubts on it working

If RICO is going to get Trump, it'll be for business fraud or tax evasion, the two things at odds with each other that Cohen literally wrote the book on. Trump didn't need Twitter to talk to the crowd, he had a microphone.

However, we could easily find some of Trump's circle was communicating with the murderous insurrection's organizers. Nonexpert here, but it seems to me we've seen enough that at least a grand jury could ask to see those records.

- - - Updated - - -

TSCOTUS agrees with Abbott. Kind of.

Abbott's mask ban ban is allowed to remain in place (again) while the courts look at the facts and evidence. Until then, TConstitutional law says the governor has the authoritah to do what he's doing.

This sucks, but it sounds very letter-of-the-law so I can't really complain that hard. Of course, this also means "activist governors" in other areas could and might very well do the same thing. Each state has its own rules, of course.

[Benggaul]

Once again, other studies have been done (very small ones) that show it being effective when combined with multiple medications. I have even pointed out these issues, like sample sizes, and improper control groups.

And I pointed out via the links/quotes how those studies were being disproven, retracted, or at least proven to have been not conclusive or comprehensive enough...meaning they should not be referenced as proof that there's merit.

Do you want to take this to the Covid thread, this seems out of place here?

Nah, I've said my piece. If Trumpers want to keep taking snake oil instead of getting vaccinated there's nothing either of us can say that will dissuade them in any case.

[Belize]

TSCOTUS agrees with Abbott. Kind of.

Abbott's mask ban ban is allowed to remain in place (again) while the courts look at the facts and evidence. Until then, TConstitutional law says the governor has the authoritah to do what he's doing.

This sucks, but it sounds very letter-of-the-law so I can't really complain that hard. Of course, this also means "activist governors" in other areas could and might very well do the same thing. Each state has its own rules, of course.

It doesn't matter when there still aren't any punitive measures to enforce the ban.

Abbott and the TxSCATUS can flap their lips all they want, they're still being told to fuck off by every city.

[Breccia]

Abbott and the TxSCATUS can flap their lips all they want, they're still being told to fuck off by every city.

Yeah, we've seen a rise in "I'll just cut off your funding" threats which make me nervous. But I am curious what, exactly, they'd do to a school with a mask mandate -- close the school?

[Machismo]

And I pointed out via the links/quotes how those studies were being disproven, retracted, or at least proven to have been not conclusive or comprehensive enough...meaning they should not be referenced as proof that there's merit.



Nah, I've said my piece. If Trumpers want to keep taking snake oil instead of getting vaccinated there's nothing either of us can say that will dissuade them in any case.

I'm personally voting in favor injecting bleach.

[Edge-]

https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...one-hit-2021-8

"You know, we got al-Baghdadi of ISIS, and he was trying to rebuild ISIS. And when I took over, ISIS was all over the place, Hugh. It was all over the place. And then I got a certain general who was fantastic," Trump said.

"ISIS is tougher than the Taliban, and nastier than the Taliban. And ISIS was watching, and then they were, they didn't exist anymore. And we took out the founder of ISIS, al-Baghdadi, and then of course Soleimani. Now just so you understand, Soleimani is bigger by many, many times than Osama bin Laden," Trump went on to say.

"The founder of ISIS is bigger by many, many times, al-Baghdadi, than Osama bin Laden. Osama bin Laden had one hit, and it was a bad one, in New York City, the World Trade Center," Trump added. "But these other two guys were monsters. They were monsters. And I kept saying for years why aren't they getting them? For years, I said it. I got them. The press doesn't talk about it. They don't talk about it because they don't want to talk about it. You talk about it a little bit."

Bin Laden? He's not so bad, he only did ONE THING and ONLY ONE THING!

[Breccia]

"ISIS was all over the place, Hugh"

Yugh?

" Osama bin Laden had one hit, and it was a bad one, in New York City, the World Trade Center"

Even entertaining this insane statement, which no I'm not, Trump forgot the Pentagon was also hit. How do you forget the events of 9/11? They should be just as clear to him as the people cheering on the rooftops when the Twin Towers fell. Which Trump never saw.

EDIT: Also, seems in horrifyingly bad taste to claim you wiped out the group that killed 12 Americans today. Which, again, Biden talked to the nation within the hour.

[masterhorus8]

Yeah, we've seen a rise in "I'll just cut off your funding" threats which make me nervous. But I am curious what, exactly, they'd do to a school with a mask mandate -- close the school?

I mean, closing the school is one way to cut down on the students and teachers from getting infected.

[Zan15]

Future DeathSantis President is really doing well

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/cor...253766203.html

Florida COVID update: 901 added deaths, largest single-day increase in pandemic history

Florida on Thursday reported 21,765 more COVID-19 cases and 901 deaths to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, according to Miami Herald calculations of CDC data.

All but two of the newly reported deaths occurred after July 25, with about 78% of those people dying in the past two weeks, according to Herald calculations of data published by the CDC. The majority of deaths happened during Florida’s latest surge in COVID-19 cases, fueled by the delta variant.

It is the largest single-day increase to the death total in the state’s COVID pandemic history.

The jump in the number of reported cases and deaths is due to the newest way deaths and cases are counted. The CDC implemented the change earlier this month, causing occasional one-day aberrations like the 901 additional deaths on Thursday and 726 more deaths reported Monday.

In all, Florida has recorded at least 3,151,909 confirmed COVID cases statewide and 43,632 deaths.

[Zan15]

1/7 people have had a confirmed case of covid. FFlorida.

shame 1/4 of the state of florida is confirmed idiots. 1/2 the state is confirmed morons.

[Breccia]

Florida COVID update: 901 added deaths, largest single-day increase in pandemic history.

Jesus Christ. That's two 747s crashing into each other.

[Bodakane]

shame 1/4 of the state of florida is confirmed idiots. 1/2 the state is confirmed morons.

As a lifelong Floridian, you are underestimating.....