1. #74521
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    5,785
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Also keep in mind that even though places like worldometers is showing Russia's death toll from COVID to be around 150k, the reality is much, much worse. Their excess death numbers are more than three times as high, nearing 500k.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  2. #74522
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Or the racist bootstrapper vote didn’t change at all. Sure he might’ve grabbed a few independents but there are people who will vote against the incumbent party because that’s what they do. A racist business man running for office isn’t new or radical.

    The Dems need to do the work and make sure people get up and vote. Obama was good at that. Stacy Abrams is also good at that. Hillary was not. She thought she was going to run a victory lap because her opponent was a clown and many people didn’t want to get off the coach because they thought she wouldn’t need their vote. 2016 just showed you can’t take anything for granted.
    Its not new or radical, yet it worked that time.

    Make no mistake, if not for the giant shit show that Trump let covid turn into, Biden likely would have lost too.

    Trump was different candidate all the way around then we've had in my lifetime. He got independent votes without any independent or centrist planks in his platform. If you think that all adds up to just Hillary thinking she was going to win (even though much of her platform was centrist), that's your prerogative, but its one that doesn't account for the reality of it all.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  3. #74523
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,913
    Quote Originally Posted by AryuFate View Post
    Don't worry, centrists always win. Mike Pence will run against Biden next election.
    All evidence to the contrary. Obama might have been a centrist policy wise, but he was far left in the eyes of the conservative - I mean, can you spell black man? The first black president of the united states was anything but a centrist choice (at the time of the election).

    And where have you been the last four years? Trump was the most neo-con hitler-esque candidate we've seen, possibly ever. Even Nixon's "people" were distancing themselves from Trump.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-07-15 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #74524
    Pit Lord
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Look behind you.
    Posts
    2,486
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I’m gonna go take a shower. Have fun wondering why anyone would possibly be talking about Trump.
    Well I guess this explains why not one, but two shillbots showed up at the same time in an attempt to preemptively derail the thread. Always good to know we can count on them to let us know when big news bombshells are about to drop by their - admittedly poor - efforts to try and obfuscate them.

  5. #74525
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    32,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm not sure why you're thinking I'm saying that was the plan
    I wasn't. It wasn't very clear. You brought up the COVID death count and I added to the context.

  6. #74526
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Its not new or radical, yet it worked that time.

    Make no mistake, if not for the giant shit show that Trump let covid turn into, Biden likely would have lost too.

    Trump was different candidate all the way around then we've had in my lifetime. He got independent votes without any independent or centrist planks in his platform. If you think that all adds up to just Hillary thinking she was going to win (even though much of her platform was centrist), that's your prerogative, but its one that doesn't account for the reality of it all.
    Trump did no better than Romney or McCain. He got the exact same amount of votes if you factor in population growth. That’s reality. These alleged independents are phantoms. They’re people who like to label themselves “independent” but always seem to have “criticisms” of only one party.

    Hilary lost votes compared to both Obama elections. Arguably the same for Kerry and Gore. She did not inspire people to get off the couch. She did not lose voters to Trump since Trump did not see any gains in GOP voter numbers that’s greater than population growth.

  7. #74527
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Trump did no better than Romney or McCain. He got the exact same amount of votes if you factor in population growth. That’s reality. These alleged independents are phantoms. They’re people who like to label themselves “independent” but always seem to have “criticisms” of only one party.

    Hilary lost votes compared to both Obama elections. Arguably the same for Kerry and Gore. She did not inspire people to get off the couch. She did not lose voters to Trump since Trump did not see any gains in GOP voter numbers that’s greater than population growth.
    How are you figuring up the population growth = new votes?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I wasn't. It wasn't very clear. You brought up the COVID death count and I added to the context.
    Ahh, fair enough.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  8. #74528
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    How are you figuring up the population growth = new votes?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote...out_statistics

    The number of votes a candidate can get potentially gain can either come from other candidates or from a gain in population. Trump got a few million more than Romney but voter turn out also increased by 7.5 million people. He was guaranteed 40-50% of that from the GOP voting bloc. And that’s exactly what he got.

    The idea that an Obama voter would vote for Trump sounds like horse shit. A more compelling idea is that same Obama voter didn’t vote at all while new potential GOP voters emerged. The latter group didn’t arrive in particularly large numbers. Just enough of them in a few key states to carry the EC. I’m sure you can dig up a few anecdotes that say the opposite but this question won’t be answered properly until people aren’t allowed to register as independents any more.

  9. #74529
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote...out_statistics

    The number of votes a candidate can get potentially gain can either come from other candidates or from a gain in population. Trump got a few million more than Romney but voter turn out also increased by 7.5 million people. He was guaranteed 40-50% of that from the GOP voting bloc. And that’s exactly what he got.

    The idea that an Obama voter would vote for Trump sounds like horse shit. A more compelling idea is that same Obama voter didn’t vote at all while new potential GOP voters emerged. The latter group didn’t arrive in particularly large numbers. Just enough of them in a few key states to carry the EC. I’m sure you can dig up a few anecdotes that say the opposite but this question won’t be answered properly until people aren’t allowed to register as independents any more.
    It either doesn't make sense or I'm missing something.

    If the percentage of voting age voters that voted in 2016 was a normal/expected increase from 2012, then that means the Repubs gained all the new votes, not just that the Dems lost votes....unless the Repubs gained the votes lost by the Dems plus a normal percentage of the new votes.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #74530
    Wednesday's report:

    35,447 new cases, about 18k more than two weeks ago. This shit again...

    Top 5:

    Fuck Florida (worldometers has them at 6,425 new cases).
    California: 3,886 new cases; 25 deaths
    Texas: 2,610 new cases; 29 deaths
    Missouri: 2,240 new cases; no deaths reported--but plenty presumed
    Louisiana: 1,936 new cases; 10 deaths

    Georgia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, North Carolina and New York round out the top 10, with New York still coming in under 1k. Things are very quickly beginning to look dire again, which was predicted by many experts (including Fauci) when vaccination rates started stalling out in certain areas of the country. I'll be honest and say I didn't expect for us to be over 30k so quickly, but here we are. Very real possibility of being over 40k again by the end of the week. Delta's nothing to fuck around with and now a lot of people are finding out. Summer's going to end much sooner for a lot of them, and for some of them it'll be permanent.

    374 deaths is over 50 more than two weeks ago and brings the total to 623,838. Even without any death totals out of Missouri it's starting to look like the national total is probably headed back up. I'm cautiously optimistic that the vaccination efforts thus far by Biden's administration will keep us from hitting the grisly numbers from the end of the TRUMP SHITSHOW, but if things don't turn around quickly we might creep our way back up to 1k territory. Worldometers has Florida at 71 on the day, more than double the second-highest of 29 from Texas.

    Related news:

    Back to school as COVID worsens

    "Sicker, younger, quicker" is how hospital executive Steve Edwards explained a sudden explosion this month in COVID patients in Springfield, Missouri.
    COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy Rates Still High in Some States

    The hesitancy that remains in parts of the country is alarming as COVID-19 cases spike in a majority of states. States seeing some of the highest increases in cases include Alabama, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Nevada and Tennessee, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. In some of those states – Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee – vaccine hesitancy rates are higher than 15%, according to the Census Bureau.
    Can you get long-haul Covid if you're fully vaccinated? Here's what doctors say--TL;DR: Very rarely. Yet another reason to get the vaccine. COVID is no laughing matter; long-COVID even less so.

    Stay safe, folks.

  11. #74531
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Related news:

    Back to school as COVID worsens
    "Sicker, younger, quicker" is how hospital executive Steve Edwards explained a sudden explosion this month in COVID patients in Springfield, Missouri.
    COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy Rates Still High in Some States
    The hesitancy that remains in parts of the country is alarming as COVID-19 cases spike in a majority of states. States seeing some of the highest increases in cases include Alabama, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Nevada and Tennessee, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. In some of those states – Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee – vaccine hesitancy rates are higher than 15%, according to the Census Bureau.
    Can you get long-haul Covid if you're fully vaccinated? Here's what doctors say--TL;DR: Very rarely. Yet another reason to get the vaccine. COVID is no laughing matter; long-COVID even less so.

    Stay safe, folks.
    Are you seeing anything positive about a vaccine for under 12 year olds? I've been watching the news and the best I've seen is "maybe September". Especially with COVID making another round and the Delta variant bolstering those spikes.

  12. #74532
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It either doesn't make sense or I'm missing something.

    If the percentage of voting age voters that voted in 2016 was a normal/expected increase from 2012, then that means the Repubs gained all the new votes, not just that the Dems lost votes....unless the Repubs gained the votes lost by the Dems plus a normal percentage of the new votes.
    The best example I can think of is 1984 when Reagan pasted Mondale. Voter turn out increased by 6 million people but Reagan went well beyond that. He gained from both population and at the Dems expense and by a huge margin.

    Trump did not do that. He got the racist bootstrapper vote. Who also voted for Romney because who else are they going to vote for?

    To be fair Gary Johnson did unusually well and probably siphoned off some NeverTrump votes. And maybe even some Hilary votes. Jill Stein also did a lot better but not as good as Johnson.

  13. #74533
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    5,785
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Are you seeing anything positive about a vaccine for under 12 year olds? I've been watching the news and the best I've seen is "maybe September". Especially with COVID making another round and the Delta variant bolstering those spikes.
    They really can't print a conclusion until the study is completed. And since it wasn't started until later, it won't finish sooner.

    EDIT:
    Just from today...

    CNN: Why a Covid-19 vaccine isn't available for kids yet
    Americans 12 and older can get a Covid-19 vaccine, but younger children are still waiting.

    With many schools across the United States now just weeks from reopening for the fall semester, pharmaceutical companies Pfizer and Moderna are still doing clinical trials to see how coronavirus vaccines work in children under 12 -- if they're safe and what the right dose should be.

    Meanwhile, all but four states are seeing an increasing trend in cases, with doctors describing patients who are younger and sicker than what they saw in the winter.

    The surge in cases has many parents of children under 12 asking when their little and not-so-little ones can get the vaccine. The answer is that it's going to be months, if not longer. It's not as simple as administering available adult doses to younger people.

    "I understand parents' concern in wanting their children to get vaccinated, but we have to make sure we're doing the best and safest thing for children," Dr. Chip Walter, a pediatrician at Duke University and an investigator for the Pfizer trials, said.


    When we might be able to vaccinate children under 12
    Pfizer's vaccine study is enrolling more than 4,600 children in three age groups: 5-to-11-year-olds; 2-to-5-year-olds; and babies 6 months up to age 2.

    Data for children 5 to 11 could come sometime in September and depending on the findings, the company told CNN it could ask the US Food and Drug Administration to authorize emergency use of the vaccine that same month.

    Data for 2-to-5-year-olds could arrive soon after. For the youngest children, Pfizer said it could potentially get data in October or November, and shortly thereafter ask the FDA to authorize emergency use.

    Emergency use considerations by the FDA can take several weeks, meaning a vaccine for younger children likely won't be available until late fall or even next year.

    Moderna's vaccine study is enrolling about 6,700 children ages 6 months to 11 years. It declined to provide a timeline to CNN on when it could potentially have trial data results.

    "The companies have said the fall ... I'd be surprised if they can move that quickly, although I suppose it's possible," Dr. Peter Hotez, a vaccinologist and dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, said.

    "I can't imagine that we'd be in a position to even consider how to use these vaccines until the very end of the calendar year of 2021, going into the first quarter of 2022," said Dr. Buddy Creech, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University and one of the lead investigators for Moderna's pediatric Covid-19 vaccine. "I love that we're riding the success of how quickly we were able to get a vaccine for adults, but we've just got to be patient."


    'Children are not just little adults'
    A year and a half into the pandemic, parents might wonder why isn't there a vaccine for younger children yet. After all, some young kids are just as big as older children for whom the vaccine is authorized.

    "Boy, have I had this discussion with several parents," said Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University and a vaccine adviser to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "It doesn't have anything to do with size. It has everything to do with maturity of the immune system, and that doesn't correlate one-to-one with the size of the child."

    Young children may need different doses. They may need a different number of doses. They may not need as many doses.

    "We don't know for young kids," Creech said. "Children are not just little adults."

    ...
    It goes on from there, but that covers the basics.
    Last edited by PhaelixWW; 2021-07-15 at 07:51 PM.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  14. #74534
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Berenstein Timeline
    Posts
    54,984
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    They really can't print a conclusion until the study is completed. And since it wasn't started until later, it won't finish sooner.
    Damn you federal government for actually taking the time to test these things rather than just do whatever is politically convenient! *shakesfist* /s

    Seriously though if there's a bright spot in this COVID shitshow it's that Katalin Kariko's work has managed to change the potential of modern vaccination for the better.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  15. #74535
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    32,318
    Well, there's more from that new book. One of the new books? Is there more than one?

    Kimberly Guilfoyle, Donald Trump Jr.'s girlfriend, who along with Trump Jr., Ivanka Trump and Eric Trump were present at the meeting, reportedly told the president that the crowd gathered to hear him speak was “reflecting the will of the people.”

    Senior White House officials Stephen Miller, Mark Meadows, Keith Kellogg and Eric Herschmann were also present in the room, according to the book.

    Ivanka Trump reportedly grew frustrated with the advice being given to her father and at one point said, “This is not right. It’s not right.”

    President Trump later called Pence, who was slated to oversee congressional certification of President Biden’s election win, and reportedly told him, “You don’t have the courage to make a hard decision.”

    According to the book, Pence had repeatedly attempted to explain that as vice president he did not the constitutional authority to block the certification of election results, as Trump wanted him to do.

    While listening to the phone call, Ivanka Trump reportedly said quietly to Kellogg, “Mike Pence is a good man.”

    “I know that,” Kellogg responded, according to the book, adding: "Let this ride. Take a deep breath. We’ll come back at it.”
    This is, again, groundwork for everyone to say "I was the only sane person in the WH" even though nobody actually did all that much. Ivanka whispering off-phone? Meaningless. Pence saying behind closed doors "I can't overthrow the government"? That's okay, but he didn't have the power so who cares. If he meant to stand up to Trump, he should have said publicly "Trump wants me to overthrow the goverment and I said no". What's the worst that could have happened? The election was already over, and Trump already sent a literal lynch mob to kill him.

    But, that's not the big quote of the day. It's time again for Guess the Speaker!

    What’s the point in having a convention or a political party more broadly if you can’t be bothered to define what it is you stand for? I found that contemptible
    "That could be literally anyone talking about the GOP."

    It's Tucker Carlson.

    "No fucking way."

    He gave an interview with TIME Magazine.

    In that interview, Carlson is flat-out asked if Biden won, and Carlson said Biden won a rigged election. Specifically, he said media and big tech censored the Republican Party, but he also said it was a lack of voter ID laws which, okay, if you can find how people voted illegally I'd back that play. We've looked. There wasn't any. And, yep, he hid behind "you can't prove there was fraud but you can't prove there wasn't therefore I'm right".

    But...

    He didn’t have much to say when I asked whether he thought the 45th President should run again. “Oh, I don’t know,” he said, as if he was bored even thinking about it. Enthusiasm for Trump, he suggested, was really just about conservative “dissidents” wanting to be “protected” from the left. He pointed to the fact that the party didn’t bother to develop a policy platform for the 2020 presidential election as evidence that Republicans had abdicated their political responsibilities. “That’s disgraceful, in my opinion,” he said. “What’s the point in having a convention or a political party more broadly if you can’t be bothered to define what it is you stand for? I found that contemptible.”
    First of all, I think he meant "deplorable".

    But then I'll remind everyone why there was no 2020 platform overhaul or update: they just said they were backing Trump.

    Carlson is a little too late taking offense to that, being a staunch and solid Trump supporter. This is the height of hypocrisy. The GOP takes the platform of "We'll do whatever Trump says" and Carlson says "The GOP lost because they didn't have a platform"? That's some hypocrite, gaslighting, blame-gaming bullshit right there.

    If the GOP had no platform other than "whateve Trump wants" then the lack of platform is Trump's fault. Blame Trump. (Carlson didn't, read the interview)

    Also, @Benggaul you might like this part, when asked if he'd gotten vaccinated, not only did Carlson refuse to answer, he reacted with offense. He compared it to being asked "do you have HIV?" and "what's your favorite sex position, and when were you last in it?"

    For the record, (a) no (b) the Reverse Graham Shower (c) last night, baby.

    Carlson spent the entire interview trying to deflect from points he couldn't counter/questions he couldn't answer, such as this:

    When I asked him why, for example, 23% of Republicans believe in the QAnon conspiracy theory, he immediately responded with a Tuckerist whataboutism. “What percentage of primary-voting Democrats believe that you can change your biological sex just by wishing it so?” he asked.
    but he forgot it wasn't his show. TIME Magazine has been at this for a fucking century and they don't hire incompetent interviewers. "He refused to answer this direct question" isn't doing Carlson any favors. In fact, it reads to me like the interview suspects he has been vaccinated, but doesn't want to admit it lest his fearmongered, conspiracy-injected audience hears it.

    Warning: Dad Joke

    Carlson knows that, if he ever said something sensible in his own echo chamber, he'd never hear the end of it

    But the big takeaway seems to be that Carlson, and the rest of the rabid fanbase (with or without cowboy hats) are looking for any excuse to make what happened to the Republican Party anything other than Trump's fault, despite due to their efforts the Republican Party becoming the Party of Trump. If we're lucky, the two will go feral and eat each other. More likely, the remaining classic Republicans and moderate conservatives will have to choose: flee the dying, zombiefied party like @Skroe or resigningly sigh and join the anti-logic anti-fact anti-truth dictator-in-training Trump crowd.

    Lucky for me, I don't have to worry about that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Adding this for fun: one of the murderous insurrectionists had their bail revoked.

    "What? They did more violence?"

    No...they hit on their parole officer, apparently.

    Probation officer Kendra Rennie testified Wednesday that Fellows had been "problematic" throughout their contact while he was released on bail. She said he had made sexual innuendos and frequently left her rambling, overly long voicemails. When he was asked to look for work, she said, he applied to Albany's FBI office, which she took to be sarcastic.

    One voicemail he left her on May 19, she said, referenced "the size of his genitalia and the performance of his genitalia."

  16. #74536
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I think you meant to say "Pence was lucky he wasn't lynched by the mob Trump sent to kill him".
    Well yes, but he will be lucky if he isn't arrested for being complicit in some of Trump's crimes.

  17. #74537
    Pit Lord D Luniz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    The Coastal Plaguelands
    Posts
    2,451
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    And the walking back of the "official" date of reinstatement of Trump has begun. Pretty soon, they will have to pay Blizzard for using Soon™.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgntp
    as their history with campaign music shows, they'll use it, without paying or permission.
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  18. #74538
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    32,318
    Once again it's time for Guess the Speaker!

    Both engines are out, the landing gear are stuck, we’re in an emergency situation. Our job is to land this plane safely and to do a peaceful transfer of power the 20th of January.
    "Hmm. This is more Milley, isn't it?"

    Correct. He also wasn't thrilled with actions he thought Trump would take that would start war with Iran, which after four years of predicting that, yeah, right there with you.

  19. #74539
    Pit Lord D Luniz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    The Coastal Plaguelands
    Posts
    2,451
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Hey, it's TR. Good news, we have a returning volunteer Trump supporter who can answer the 24-hour challenges. I'll give him some leeway with regard to the ones he missed, but there'll be others.

    I'm sure TR, who is an honest poster here for genuine discussion, will be happy to defend Trump for his words and actions. I mean, he wouldn't want to admit he's a drive-by shitposter, would he?

    You might want to start by looking into Trump's own generals preparing for a coup if Trump went crazy and tried to launch a nuke. I would recommend you read up on that -- it's going to come up. Shortly.
    He did admit that, then turned it into a "the mods are out to get me and you know it too" whine
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  20. #74540
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    32,318
    CNN reports with barely contained glee that some YouTube guy has created a PAC and collected $3.4 million by using billions of robocalls with spliced audio recordings of Trump, standing safely in a legal "grey area" by saying "donate now, not endorsed by Trump".

    "Won't the FEC take a dim view on that?"

    I mean, probably not? They waited until May of this year to go after the hush money from the National Enquirer. I think the guy's probaby safe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Trump goes on FOX News and claims none of the murderous insurrectionsts were armed with firearms.

    During an on-air conversation with Trump on July 11, "Sunday Morning Futures" host Maria Bartiromo twice broached the topic of whether guns were present during the attack at the Capitol.

    "They called it an armed insurrection, and yet no guns were seized," Bartiromo said before describing it as being among the "misinformation" spread about Trump’s presidency.

    Later, she repeated the assertion: "They continue to call this an armed insurrection," Bartiromo said. "And yet no guns were seized, Mr. President."

    "Right," Trump answered. "There were no guns whatsoever."

    Trump went on to describe the events of Jan. 6 by saying that "people with no guns walked down" to the Capitol, that the building’s doors were open, and that there was a "lovefest" between the Capitol police and the insurrectionists.
    This is, of course, false. It was highly documented with videos taken at the time and court records/charges filed, including "he had a gun on federal property and we took it when we arrested him".

    You know what, I think this calls for a 24-hour challenge. Not naming names, but anyone who doesn't provide some evidence that backs Trump's point of view will henceforth will be assigned to the "Trump was lying" category, and I will quote them as such until they speak up on the matter.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •