Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

We're starting to get more info on the attacks. Specifically, a group called American Oversight sued to have some public documents released, including some call logs from Rosen (acting AG) and handwritten notes. Apparently he at least called Pence, possibly asking if Trump's loyal supporters had killed him yet.

Speaking of, Scott Fairlamb is one of the murderous insurrectionists who--

"I'm getting sick and tired of you calling such peaceful tourists ugly names!"

-- being one of the first to break down the barricade, incited others to violence, and punched a cop in the face. Fairlamb's 41-month sentence seems pretty weak sauce to me, but he also might have plead out. And it's the longest prison sentence for any of the murderous insurrectionists to date, probably because it's the first to involve a conviction for physical violence.

Although, and I think @cubby has mentioned this topic, the famous QAnon Shaman left a death threat on a note in Pence's office. Looking forward to seeing how that turns out.

[postman1782]

We're starting to get more info on the attacks. Specifically, a group called American Oversight sued to have some public documents released, including some call logs from Rosen (acting AG) and handwritten notes. Apparently he at least called Pence, possibly asking if Trump's loyal supporters had killed him yet.

Speaking of, Scott Fairlamb is one of the murderous insurrectionists who--

"I'm getting sick and tired of you calling such peaceful tourists ugly names!"

-- being one of the first to break down the barricade, incited others to violence, and punched a cop in the face. Fairlamb's 41-month sentence seems pretty weak sauce to me, but he also might have plead out. And it's the longest prison sentence for any of the murderous insurrectionists to date, probably because it's the first to involve a conviction for physical violence.

Although, and I think @cubby has mentioned this topic, the famous QAnon Shaman left a death threat on a note in Pence's office. Looking forward to seeing how that turns out.

Did you see the most recent announcement about Pence? I don't know if it was posted here yet, but apparently Pence and his aides' badges were disabled the morning of January 6th, when they were trying to evacuated the capitol building when the insurrection was happening. Meaning they were stopped from trying to even leave the building. They literally hid basically in a loading dock of the capitol building, where the Whitehouse photographer has pictures of it. And in the book "I Alone Can Fix It", he didn't want to get in the car with the secret service that were protecting him, because if he did, he would never come back that day to do his constitutional duty to throw the fat orange bastard out.

https://hillreporter.com/report-penc...offices-117343
https://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrote/...offices-117343

[Breccia]

Did you see the most recent announcement about Pence?

No, and I'm not sure I believe that. Disabling someone's keycards would leave a "paper" trail. Not even Trump would be that catastrophically stupid.

[PhaelixWW]

No, and I'm not sure I believe that. Disabling someone's keycards would leave a "paper" trail. Not even Trump would be that catastrophically stupid.

There's a "perfect" call transcript with the President of Ukraine that would like a word.

[Kaleredar]

Did you see the most recent announcement about Pence? I don't know if it was posted here yet, but apparently Pence and his aides' badges were disabled the morning of January 6th, when they were trying to evacuated the capitol building when the insurrection was happening. Meaning they were stopped from trying to even leave the building. They literally hid basically in a loading dock of the capitol building, where the Whitehouse photographer has pictures of it. And in the book "I Alone Can Fix It", he didn't want to get in the car with the secret service that were protecting him, because if he did, he would never come back that day to do his constitutional duty to throw the fat orange bastard out.

https://hillreporter.com/report-penc...offices-117343
https://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrote/...offices-117343

Trump wanting to have Pence actually killed, rather than it being a chant picked up by Trump's followers, would surprise me.

Trump needed a scapegoat; a dead scapegoat is a martyr, and a martyr he can't really make work for him if it was his followers that did the killing. And one of Trump's faithful killing a republican politician, instead of just their idle threats? That would put McConnell's hackles up for sure, and likely all the other non-trumper GOP as well.

I don't doubt that some of the people there really wanted to hang Pence. I don't doubt that Trump's crew had some hand in planning the whole insurrection (they seem just the right level of shrewd/stupid to semi-cladestinely plan such a thing, but nonetheless be dumb enough to think such a thing would actually accomplish anything.) But Trump wanting Pence actually killed and working towards that goal, personally, instead of just wanting the much easier and more useful ability to blame him for everything? I remain skeptical.

[Edge-]

https://hillreporter.com/report-penc...offices-117343
https://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrote/...offices-117343

No clue who runs that Twitter account, but until I see some kind of verification from trusted media I'm fairly skeptical of this.

The access badges worked that morning before the mob entered the capitol, but once Pence was removed from the chamber floor, their badges no longer worked. Access was restored later that night after the threat was over.

F to doubt.

That's a very tiny window, and given all the confusion at the time I'm beyond skeptical that they could have taken action that quickly.

[Kaleredar]

Have to agree with you here. The Democrats SUCK when it comes to messaging. It's like they are trying to come up with stuff that will preemptively lose what is the correct position by poisoning the well with the worst possible messaging and imagery possible.

I wouldn't change it to Pro-Diverse History or History Equality or anything like that, I would call it flat out what it is. I would rename it to something like "Accurate History" or "Un-whitewashed history" or "True History".

Give it a name that is accurate and as nonpartisan as possible. Even though many of those sound like Republican doublespeak between what they say and what they do, but the fact that they give them such names is WHY they get as much traction because while they are doing the exact opposite, the name describes something people WANT.

I chose the ones I did because they, importantly, sound pleasant. If a name sounds pleasant, the person against it has an uphill battle refuting it because optically it sounds like they're against something good, and they have to explain why it's not good.

That said, I hear about CRT far, far more from right-wingers decrying it as the worst thing ever than from people actually espousing it. It's just that the poor term makes it easy to be rebranded as a boogeyman.

Republicans don't even know what CRT actually is, hence why you could change the name and none of the actual educational tenants would have to shift one iota. But like I said, "critical race theory" sounds vague and scary, so they can simply be against it by name alone. Change that name and then, suddenly, they'd have to explain why they're against "equality in history" and other niceties, while also being at the great detriment of not even knowing why they're against the thing.

I would love to have a conversation with the people deciding these names and figure out if they are doing this shit intentionally in the hopes of losing these issues while pretending they are fighting for them or are they honestly this inept at it like an elementary school kid naming his online avatar.

I don't know who coined the phrase, but it, like "defund the police" is something that sounds like it was developed with controversy in mind. It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable in its naming because it asks people to ask uncomfortable questions.

And like I said, that might stroke the interests of academics musing over such things and the realms of tumblr and reddit trying to get a rise out of people, but its a terrible marketing strategy. Trying to engage in a conversation with somebody with "well you see Critical Race theory is actually about..." or "no no no, defund the police actually means..." means you're already fighting an uphill battle. If you need to explain what you're actually selling, you've already failed at selling.

Republicans are fiendishly shrewd when it comes to naming things. They didn't name it the "pro-we get to tell women what to do with their bodies" movement, they called it the "pro-life movement." It wasn't the "increase of government surveillance and suspension of habeas corpus for immigrants act," it was the "patriot act."

Now, to be fair, in a rare exercise of good naming judgement on the part of the left, supporters of a woman's right to choose wisely went with the name pro-choice. Can you imagine if they had named it the "pro-abortion" movement? They'd have gone nowhere.

Naming matters. Controversial naming, or naming that requires an explanation, makes it very difficult to get mass support.

[postman1782]

No, and I'm not sure I believe that. Disabling someone's keycards would leave a "paper" trail. Not even Trump would be that catastrophically stupid.

Well, knowing that if Trump was going to follow the constitution, instead of Trump, it would not surprise me. Which is something that could very possibly be in the stuff that Trump is trying to stop from going to the Committee.

[DarkTZeratul]

Honestly “critical race theory” is a terrible name. The word “race” is pre-loaded with all kinds of connotations that usually make Americans adverse to engaging with it.

The phrase itself also isn’t particularly indicative of what it is even about; offhand it sounds like it could just as easily be about some eugenics nonsense as what it’s actually about, which is pretty much the exact opposite.

Rename “critical race theory” to something like “pro-diverse history” or “history equality,” change nothing else about it, and you’ve got an academic movement way easier to drum up support for. Because unfortunately the sales appeal of a movement can be just as important in gaining support as the actual content of the movement itself.

Having a controversial or provocative sounding movement might sound good to academics who conceive of such movements, but things like this are really about marketing when it comes to the broader public. It’s the exact same reason why “defund the police” has had a hard time catching on. Poor choice of naming.

You're falling for Republican propaganda in assuming Critical Race Theory is some kind of movement, or a broad spectrum of teaching, or really anything big and sweeping at all. It isn't any of that stuff. It's a very narrow, specific concept taught to students studying applicable fields in higher education, such as criminal justice. There's no failing of messaging here because unlike, for example, "Defund the Police," it was never meant to BE a message at all until the Republicans blew it up into a straw boogieman that they could attack for political points.

As to the name itself, it's basically just Critical Theory applied specifically to racial matters, so...

[Breccia]

Which is something that could very possibly be in the stuff that Trump is trying to stop from going to the Committee.

Still not buying it.

One, I'd like to think that any career WH security, when told to turn off Pence's keycards, would not only say "fuck you" but would immediately tell the military. Or, wait till Jan 21 and say "this is what he said, I have proof, here it is"

Two, I don't think that kind of security stuff is in the National Archives.

If this is true, I hope we get proof. But I'll wait instead of taking it on face value.

[Kaleredar]

You're falling for Republican propaganda in assuming Critical Race Theory is some kind of movement, or a broad spectrum of teaching, or really anything big and sweeping at all. It isn't any of that stuff. It's a very narrow, specific concept taught to students studying criminal justice in higher education. There's no failing of messaging here because unlike, for example, "Defund the Police," it was never meant to BE a message at all until the Republicans blew it up into a straw boogieman that they could attack for political points.

It's being rolled into a term used to attack educational curriculum that teaches about the history of race and systemic bias all around. And it's something, frankly, that democrats and progressives need to get ahead of in their messaging.

People can cite calling that CRT as an "untrue meaning," people can cite it as unfair, people can cite it as inapplicable, that doesn't stop or change what the GOP is trying to do to it, and with it, in their messaging.

[cubby]

We're starting to get more info on the attacks. Specifically, a group called American Oversight sued to have some public documents released, including some call logs from Rosen (acting AG) and handwritten notes. Apparently he at least called Pence, possibly asking if Trump's loyal supporters had killed him yet.

Speaking of, Scott Fairlamb is one of the murderous insurrectionists who--

"I'm getting sick and tired of you calling such peaceful tourists ugly names!"

-- being one of the first to break down the barricade, incited others to violence, and punched a cop in the face. Fairlamb's 41-month sentence seems pretty weak sauce to me, but he also might have plead out. And it's the longest prison sentence for any of the murderous insurrectionists to date, probably because it's the first to involve a conviction for physical violence.

Although, and I think @cubby has mentioned this topic, the famous QAnon Shaman left a death threat on a note in Pence's office. Looking forward to seeing how that turns out.

Fairlamb did plead out. The evidence was so piled up against him that even the judge said it was a good thing he had, because no jury would have acquitted him.

The QAnon Shaman is currently trying to get out of responsibility for his planned actions by claiming mental insanity. We'll see how that goes.

[Breccia]

The QAnon Shaman is currently trying to get out of responsibility for his planned actions by claiming mental insanity.

"Your Honor, the proof that I was mentally insane is that I thought Trump won the election."
"...and your defense for bringing a fucking spear to the raid?"
"It had 'agility' on it."

[YUPPIE]

not sure if this is more for trump or insurrection thread, but they're going in hard on qanon shaman guy. 4 years of prison possibly.

[Fugus]

I chose the ones I did because they, importantly, sound pleasant. If a name sounds pleasant, the person against it has an uphill battle refuting it because optically it sounds like they're against something good, and they have to explain why it's not good.

Making them sound pleasant plays into their thing about Liberals being crybabies who can't handle the truth too. And they can try to spin "Pro-Diversity" into meaning "Anti-White", same with History Equality.

But having a flat out, impartial words like Accurate and Un-WhiteWashed and True gets much harder for them, it doesn't come off as happy which they can spin as panzy or the fear factor stuff. They would largely just try and ignore it if they could. Because it would be short and to the point where it says what it does and doesn't sugar coat it.

Watching them try to explain how Accurate and Un-Whitewashed is a bad thing is an even bigger uphill climb for them.

I don't know who coined the phrase, but it, like "defund the police" is something that sounds like it was developed with controversy in mind. It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable in its naming because it asks people to ask uncomfortable questions.

And like I said, that might stroke the interests of academics musing over such things and the realms of tumblr and reddit trying to get a rise out of people, but its a terrible marketing strategy. Trying to engage in a conversation with somebody with "well you see Critical Race theory is actually about..." or "no no no, defund the police actually means..." means you're already fighting an uphill battle. If you need to explain what you're actually selling, you've already failed at selling.

Republicans are fiendishly shrewd when it comes to naming things. They didn't name it the "pro-we get to tell women what to do with their bodies" movement, they called it the "pro-life movement." It wasn't the "increase of government surveillance and suspension of habeas corpus for immigrants act," it was the "patriot act."

Now, to be fair, in a rare exercise of good naming judgement on the part of the left, supporters of a woman's right to choose wisely went with the name pro-choice. Can you imagine if they had named it the "pro-abortion" movement? They'd have gone nowhere.

Naming matters. Controversial naming, or naming that requires an explanation, makes it very difficult to get mass support.

The Pro-Choice name was really good, if this was a more recent thing, I dread the name they would have chosen. The naming that republicans do is party why I chose my naming conventions for CRT as it matches there greatly and gives them a much harder target to drag down, it's not touchy feely and its not some shock value BS, its short to the point and hard to argue against based on the name so they would have to go on the merits (And lie about them).

With CRT, the double standard I see is aw-inspiring, watched the same people talking about being against teaching CRT are also the ones trying to keep confederate statues because it is part of their history. Try to explain how the confederate statues shouldn't be destroyed but should be in a museum with the history around it is exactly the same reason why we should teach CRT and watch their mental processes grind to a halt trying to differentiate the two in attempts to not sound racist or that they are trying to whitewash their history.

[Breccia]

4 years of prison possibly.

Most insanity pleas fail. And I'd like to believe that, if they try "I did it but I'm insane" they have lost any plea deal they might have gotten by admitting under oath they are guilty. This guy came prepped and ready, everyone saw him, there are pictures, he wrote a death threat to Pence and left it on his desk. If he's found insane, he needs to be committed. EDIT: I think that's actually a mandate, "insanity" does not mean "you get to go free"

- - - Updated - - -

A federal judge denies Trump's motion to delay--

"Stop posting that!"

I will when it stops happening! Yes, this is yet another one.

In his renewed motion, despite the fact that he requests essentially the same relief as in his original preliminary injunction motion, Plaintiff has not advanced any new facts or arguments that persuade the court to reconsider its November 9, 2021, Order.

The court’s analysis previously rejecting Plaintiff’s requested relief is thus equally applicable here: Plaintiff is unlikely to succeed on the merits of his claims or suffer irreparable harm, and a balance of the equities and public interest bear against granting his requested relief.

[Breccia]

Literally just spinning tires hoping to delay the inevitable at this point.

I posted before but will say again, I don't know what would drive SCOTUS to do anything useful at this point. It'd be contrary to their recent ruling history and I haven't seen anything in Trump's arguments that has had any chance at all. The only reason he's not being laughed out of the UN, sorry, laughed out of the bedrooms, sorry again, laughed out of court is the attack on democracy isn't funny.

And just to be clear: even if there was no murderous insurrection, Trump using WH privileges on campaign actions should still be actionable. Ordering Executive Branch officials to shut down a fair, legal election you lost should at least be an ethics violation even if the crowd didn't do anything.

[Breccia]

Federal judge overturns Texas mask mandate ban. That's a triple negative?

U.S. District Judge Lee Yeakel wrote in the ruling that the Americans with Disabilities Act overrides Abbott's order issued earlier this year prohibiting government entities in the state, including public schools, from requiring masks.

You do not have the right to endanger other people's health because you want to.

[Gorsameth]

His abuses of the office surely warrant a full review of policies with regards to crimes committed while in office. It’s clear impeachment isn’t an effective deterrent, maybe criminal prosecution will help prevent this shit going forward.

It wouldn't. Because it would have to be federal and then your asking the President to prosecute himself.

[Huehuecoyotl]

No comment from dribbles that the UK growth is now the worst in the G7? That our recovery from the massive downturn caused by Covid is lagging behind France, Germany and Italy?

I wonder how we could be different from those countries? Why have we recovered less well? Could it possibly be.....Brexit?

Yes. Yes it could. And it is.

Not long ago dribbles and the moronic burner were crowing about how our GDP was outstripping the EU. Ignoring the fact that we'd dropped further than any of them, so we had a lot further to go to get back to pre-Covid levels. They were also cheerleading how strong the pound was, which apparently showed that Brexit was going well.

Now GDP is slowing, we're falling further behind our competitors and the pound is dropping against the Euro. Whiich, by their "logic" means that Brexit is now going badly. Sadly all the burner posts have become dust in the wind. So we don't have anything concrete to point and laugh at. Not that it would make any difference; we know Brexiteers will ignore facts that don't fit their world view. Even their own words or the words of other Brexiteers can be hand-waved away if they don't fit the current story.

Really, it's 1984 come to life with Brexiteers. What the Brexit Party tells you is the truth, even if you have to ignore the evidence of your own eyes.