Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[gondrin]

We want to be very careful here because there is an argument to be made that they’re political prisoners and political prosecutions and it’s not entirely baseless. I’m not saying I think that’s the case, but the actions we take regarding these rioters need to be more than above board. So yes, their state of mind absolutely matters.

And I’m sorry but was there an attempted murder charge somewhere in there that I missed? We’re certainly paying a lot of attention to how the representatives, senators, and police felt, and it certainly seems reasonable that they felt they were under attack. But from the viewpoint of the rioters, was that the intent? Because I’d have thought there’d be some kind of charges indicating that by now if it were the case.

First off, to be a political prisoner, you would have to be jailed for your viewpoints. That would like if Ted Cruz or Rand Paul said something about not liking Biden's policies and he had them jailed. I would be right outside of that jail protesting against Biden then even though I don't like Ted Cruz or Rand Paul as it would be a massive issue. This is something that Trump did actively look into doing to reporters for reporting things he didn't like.

Second, as I stated in that post, the government has the right to use deadly force against anyone that breaks into a secure facility WITHOUT warning. Most times they won't. Even if they ask you to leave, most times you'll just be arrested and go from there. But if you resist, if you continue to go forward with your actions, they are authorized to use deadly force against ANY intruder, no explanations needed. This is true of military bases, federally sensitive areas, local police stations and the like.

Think of this, the rioters over the summer that ransacked the police stations could have been shot while in the middle of doing so and the police would have been justified for doing it.

The intent of the rioters was to stop the count from going through. They thought it was a few states with some funny numbers. However, much like if you took a friend to someplace and he decided to rob it without telling you and you then drive him somewhere, you would ALSO been held for that crime. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse for breaking it.

Question I always have for people who even remotely try to excuse the events there or downplay it is this:

If this were 2017 and a bunch of left wing zealots decided to ransack the Capital building screaming "Hang Mike Pence!!!!" for the sole purpose of trying to overthrow a legitimately elected president, would you be saying the same thing if the events played out the same way(someone got shot and killed, multiple police got injured or killed)? Would you be saying those people are political prisoners? I know I sure wouldn't. I would still call them terrorists and insurrectionists.

Because that is what they are.

[Nastard]

I think few people believe the election was ACTUALLY stolen. It's just the same bullshit sports fans pull when their team loses and they blame it on the ref conspiring against their team even when there's no evidence of it. Whatever it takes to deny the reality that your team sucks and was beaten by a superior opponent. Then, they can fool themselves into believing that it wasn't that they backed the wrong pony, but they WOULD have won if not for all the cheating. So not only do they still have the superior team despite the loss but they're also poor victims of an oppressive system. This is why the argument "they thought they were doing the right thing" falls flat. Everyone's in on the joke.

[Ivanstone]

'History is written by the victors' is more than just a glib aphorism, it plays out all the time.

You know one place where it didn't play out?

The United States of America.

The North decided to play nice with the South after the Civil War was over and the South started to re-write history. The "Lost Cause" is one of history's most pernicious lies and its effects continue to this day. You can draw a straight line from Reconstruction all the way to January 6th.

[cubby]

We want to be very careful here because there is an argument to be made that they’re political prisoners and political prosecutions and it’s not entirely baseless. I’m not saying I think that’s the case, but the actions we take regarding these rioters need to be more than above board. So yes, their state of mind absolutely matters.

Pushing that position, even "entertaining" that idea, is on the same thought level as "an argument to be made that the earth is flat".

And I’m sorry but was there an attempted murder charge somewhere in there that I missed? We’re certainly paying a lot of attention to how the representatives, senators, and police felt, and it certainly seems reasonable that they felt they were under attack. But from the viewpoint of the rioters, was that the intent? Because I’d have thought there’d be some kind of charges indicating that by now if it were the case.

It is interesting that we haven't had seen felony murder charges, as at least one federal officer was killed, along with a trump supporter. Here is a good summary of the federal felony murder statute as it applied to the Jan 6 Capital Riot (I looked the author up before posting, and she knows her stuff). It's as dull and boring to most people as all legal articles can be, so here's the summary:

[F]elony murder charges are definitely on the table for at least some of the people who stormed the Capitol. But it remains to be seen how broadly the rule can be applied to the rest.

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Which is why I said believed. They’re wrong of course, but you have to couch their actions in what their mindset was at the time. This is pretty established legal precedent for determining how serious a crime is or even if one has been committed at all.

I did not say they were attempting a coup. In fact they felt they were preventing a coup. Kind of the opposite.

The Rioters intent would have the same logic as a murderer justifying their actions by claiming to be helping to solve for climate change. Intent is am important element in crimes, however, not all intent carries the weight to change a charge. This is that case here.

[Endus]

The Rioters intent would have the same logic as a murderer justifying their actions by claiming to be helping to solve for climate change. Intent is am important element in crimes, however, not all intent carries the weight to change a charge. This is that case here.

A lot of people struggle with the idea that "an opinion that informed their decision to act that way" is what's generally described, under the law, as things like "motive" and "intent". It's pretty much never a defense. It's the equivalent of saying "hey, my wife cheated on me, and I can't let another man have her; I HAD to kill her". Yeah, that's an "opinion". A "point of view". A murderous one that describes the killer's motive and explains why and how he acted criminally, not an argument he did not act criminally.

[Breccia]

Once again, it is not a good day to be a member of Team Trump.

1) Steve Bannon faces legal issues as we all know. He's due to be dragged before Congress, either to testify or face contempt charges, his choice. Which is probably why he just took a loan on a $1.5 million estate linked to one of his nonprofits. Yes, Bannon has a nonprofit that at once point had a $1.5 million house attached to it, it was legal, go figure. No, not the nonprofit he was arrested for defrauding, a different one. This is one where he works with China. Er, kind of, he apparently left...look, it all makes no sense but it's in the article, Bannon at one point had an estate he took a loan against.

Had.

Bannon sougth the loan with a property he no longer owns. The estate was sold off Nov 2020 for a loss and...like I said, the whole thing makes no sense.

This is just a loan application of course. The loan could be denied for any number of reasons, from "you don't own the collateral" to "you're an insurrectionist and going to jail".

2) Tucker Carlson and FOX News discuss Viagra as a COVID treatment.

No, really.

To be fair, we at least know it's not horse dewormer or bleach. But he discussed the story based on a nurse doing a study on one patient. Hey, at this point America is looking hard for a cure, but if you look for a cure longer than four hours, you might need a vaccine.

3) Newsweek also reports how Trump spent his Jan 6th. He spent some of it golfing with Graham -- how appropriate, the guy who cheats on all his wives golfing with the guy whose wife I'm banging in the shower -- and then watching Biden's speech. Newsweek uses the term "fuming".

The reason he is so fixated on the so-called stolen election is that he still can't believe he lost to that guy. He thinks he's feeble and incompetent and believes Biden's first year has demonstrated that.

-- a source close to Trump

It doesn't matter if he believes it or not, he still lost

-- Breccia

4) Dustin Thompson and his lawyers are arguing in court that Wood, Giuliani, and Trump should all be subpoena'd in his case.

"Oh, is this either NY investigation into his fraud, or are they prosecutors in some other trial?"

Thompson is one of the murderous insurrectionists.

Considering the significant roles these witnesses play in the legal and political communities, and the evasiveness that some have historically shown in the face of court orders, Defendant submits that appointment of the U.S. Marshals Service is necessary in order to effectuate his right to compulsory process and ensure that the same is accomplished expeditiously

--the insurrectionist's lawyer filed this in court

I mean...it should work but won't. "So-and-so told me to do it" seems like a pretty good reason to bring someone to the stand...but Trump might literally rather die.

5) As I previously guessed, Raw Story agrees that Pence wants to testify, but fears backlash. And of course by "backlash" I mean "killed by Trump supporters". Incidentally, their state of mind won't matter. They could be convinced Pence is a coniferous tree, and they'd still face murder charges. Of course, if they're that delusional to be berift of objective facts or context, they might plead insanity.

[Beefhammer]

They had guns, bombs, molotov cocktails, thousands of rounds of ammo, and literally an arsenal in a fucking hotel that was close to the capitol building. To say they were poorly armed, is bullshit.

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Nope, if I were a cop inside there, there would have been hundreds more dead. They are nothing but fucking terrorists that were looking to kill elected officials.

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Don't forget the bullhorn lady that was directing terrorists on how to find lawmakers. She was giving detailed directions to lawmakers and how to get to them.

Yeah, hes just another conservaturd just full of shit.

[bladeXcrasher]

Once again, it is not a good day to be a member of Team Trump.

1) Steve Bannon faces legal issues as we all know. He's due to be dragged before Congress, either to testify or face contempt charges, his choice. Which is probably why he just took a loan on a $1.5 million estate linked to one of his nonprofits. Yes, Bannon has a nonprofit that at once point had a $1.5 million house attached to it, it was legal, go figure. No, not the nonprofit he was arrested for defrauding, a different one. This is one where he works with China. Er, kind of, he apparently left...look, it all makes no sense but it's in the article, Bannon at one point had an estate he took a loan against.

Had.

Bannon sougth the loan with a property he no longer owns. The estate was sold off Nov 2020 for a loss and...like I said, the whole thing makes no sense.

This is just a loan application of course. The loan could be denied for any number of reasons, from "you don't own the collateral" to "you're an insurrectionist and going to jail".

2) Tucker Carlson and FOX News discuss Viagra as a COVID treatment.

No, really.

To be fair, we at least know it's not horse dewormer or bleach. But he discussed the story based on a nurse doing a study on one patient. Hey, at this point America is looking hard for a cure, but if you look for a cure longer than four hours, you might need a vaccine.

3) Newsweek also reports how Trump spent his Jan 6th. He spent some of it golfing with Graham -- how appropriate, the guy who cheats on all his wives golfing with the guy whose wife I'm banging in the shower -- and then watching Biden's speech. Newsweek uses the term "fuming".


-- a source close to Trump


-- Breccia

4) Dustin Thompson and his lawyers are arguing in court that Wood, Giuliani, and Trump should all be subpoena'd in his case.

"Oh, is this either NY investigation into his fraud, or are they prosecutors in some other trial?"

Thompson is one of the murderous insurrectionists.


--the insurrectionist's lawyer filed this in court

I mean...it should work but won't. "So-and-so told me to do it" seems like a pretty good reason to bring someone to the stand...but Trump might literally rather die.

5) As I previously guessed, Raw Story agrees that Pence wants to testify, but fears backlash. And of course by "backlash" I mean "killed by Trump supporters". Incidentally, their state of mind won't matter. They could be convinced Pence is a coniferous tree, and they'd still face murder charges. Of course, if they're that delusional to be berift of objective facts or context, they might plead insanity.

Biden's had the best first year economy by almost every metric than the last 7 administrations. If that makes him incompetent, what does Trump think thst makes himself? LOL

[Mekh]

2) Tucker Carlson and FOX News discuss Viagra as a COVID treatment.

This will probably amount to nothing, but it's actually at least not the most stupid idea I've heard regarding treatment. Covid causes circulatory problems and clots and IIRC, Viagra started out as pills for that, before the side effect became the real draw. But it's also not more logical than an aspirine treatment.

[Kathandira]

Biden's had the best first year economy by almost every metric than the last 7 administrations. If that makes him incompetent, what does Trump think thst makes himself? LOL

I'm not good at keeping up with the economic metrics. Are the numbers comparing 2020 to 2021? Or is this a measure of the passed few decades?

[bladeXcrasher]

I'm not good at keeping up with the economic metrics. Are the numbers comparing 2020 to 2021? Or is this a measure of the passed few decades?

The first years of the last 7 administrations, we are talking over 40 years. This is also a metric on just how terrible Trump fucked the economy as well.

[Breccia]

it's actually at least not the most stupid idea I've heard regarding treatment.

Just want to point out how low of a bar that is. If serious studies show there's a benefit, I mean, that's fine with me. I just don't expect Carlson to be the first to find a new treatment...unless he just tries random shit dozens or hundreds of times and confirmation biases.

[Mekh]

Just want to point out how low of a bar that is. If serious studies show there's a benefit, I mean, that's fine with me. I just don't expect Carlson to be the first to find a new treatment...unless he just tries random shit dozens or hundreds of times and confirmation biases.

Oh, I agree completely.

[Kathandira]

The first years of the last 7 administrations, we are talking over 40 years. This is also a metric on just how terrible Trump fucked the economy as well.

Thanks!

I ask because Biden inherited a rebounding economy as we were opening businesses up again after a long shutdown. I could see that as a reason for it. In this case, I think looking at his first year isn't going to be reliable as a metric of how he is doing.

Unless the numbers take that into account.

[bladeXcrasher]

Thanks!

I ask because Biden inherited a rebounding economy as we were opening businesses up again after a long shutdown. I could see that as a reason for it. In this case, I think looking at his first year isn't going to be reliable as a metric of how he is doing.

Unless the numbers take that into account.

If his build back better agenda was passed it was likely to continue. When Manchin and Semena rat fucked it, the projections were revised down a few percentage points.

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Donald Trump dialled Fox hosts into Oval Office meetings, report says

Feels like something that is obvious, and everyone just knows already, but wtf...

And Fox have the balls to complain about literally any other media organisation and their "control" over things.

Like you said, obvious, given the text messages we know Hannity sent Trump in the lead up to his Autocoup.

[Kaleredar]

This will probably amount to nothing, but it's actually at least not the most stupid idea I've heard regarding treatment. Covid causes circulatory problems and clots and IIRC, Viagra started out as pills for that, before the side effect became the real draw. But it's also not more logical than an aspirine treatment.

The most logical prevention of all would, of course, be getting the damn vaccine.

A version of which is made by Pfizer, who make viagra. So if they’re nefariously poisoning or microchipping people for whatever reason Via the vaccine, could do the same with viagra.

[Poopymonster]

The most logical prevention of all would, of course, be getting the damn vaccine.

A version of which is made by Pfizer, who make viagra. So if they’re nefariously poisoning or microchipping people for whatever reason Via the vaccine, could do the same with viagra.

M Night Shamalamadingdong plot twist: The chips were in the horse dewormer.

[Kathandira]

If his build back better agenda was passed it was likely to continue. When Manchin and Semena rat fucked it, the projections were revised down a few percentage points.

Then impressive indeed = D

[Edge-]

And Fox have the balls to complain about literally any other media organisation and their "control" over things.

Gotta stay on message and on brand.

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https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/10/polit...nvs/index.html

An online media network that promotes election and coronavirus-related conspiracy theories is soliciting donations and telling donors their contributions will be tax-deductible -- even though its foundation's tax-exempt status has been revoked by the IRS.

The Worldview Weekend Broadcast Network -- which has given a platform to conspiracy theorist Mike Lindell and other right-wing figures who have pushed falsehoods about the 2020 election -- collects donations through a nonprofit organization, the Worldview Weekend Foundation, which they say funds some of its operations.

The IRS revoked the foundation's tax-exempt status in May after it failed to file tax returns for three consecutive years, according to the agency's records. That means that donors who give money to the foundation can't deduct those contributions from their taxes unless the IRS reinstates its status.

But more than seven months later, the organization is still actively soliciting donations and telling potential donors their contributions will be deductible. This week, a large pop-up ad on the website declared that "your tax deductible contribution is vital to continue operations," while a banner ad urged supporters to "make your end of the year tax deductible donation!"

The network asks for donations in a form at the bottom of every page on its website, which states three times that contributions are "100% Tax-Deductable" (sic). And its audio and video broadcasts and social media posts often include similar requests for donations and claims about deductibility.

The grift never ends.

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https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3v3...nazism-fascism

A Republican Indiana state senator took a moment to question last week whether teachers would be crossing some sort of boundary by having a position on Nazism and fascism in their classrooms and stressed the need to be “impartial.”

The comments—which Sen. Scott Baldwin has since backtracked—came during a Wednesday committee hearing regarding legislation Baldwin co-authored, which would block the teaching of “certain concepts that divide and stereotype people into groups based on sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, national origin or political affiliation,” like many similar proposals around the country. A section of the legislation would also bar teachers from affecting “student’s attitudes, habits, traits, opinions, beliefs, or feelings” when teaching certain subjects, according to the Washington Post.

During the hearing, a history teacher, naturally, brought up that his classroom is currently learning about fascism and “the rise of Nazism,” according to the Star.

“I'm just not neutral on the political ideology of fascism,” said the teacher, Matt Bockenfeld, according to the Star. “We condemn it, and we condemn it in full, and I tell my students the purpose, in a democracy, of understanding the traits of fascism is so that we can recognize it and we can combat it.”

Baldwin clarified–sort of.

“I have no problem with the education system providing instruction on the existence of those isms,” he said. “I believe that we've gone too far when we take a position on those isms .… We need to be impartial.”

“We just provide the facts,” Baldwin said. “The kids formulate their own viewpoints.”

Baldwin later told the Indianapolis Star he’d been unclear in his comments and said that it’s fine to teach kids that Nazism and fascism are, indeed, bad.

“When I was drafting this bill, my intent with regard to 'political affiliation' was to cover political parties within the legal American political system. In my comments during committee, I was thinking more about the big picture and trying to say that we should not tell kids what to think about politics,” Baldwin said.

He continued: “Nazism, Marxism and fascism are a stain on our world history and should be regarded as such, and I failed to adequately articulate that in my comments during the meeting. I believe that kids should learn about these horrible events in history so that we don't experience them again in humanity.”

Once again, Republicans continue to have issues around discussing whether Nazi's are good, bad, or whether we need to treat them as ideological equals and respect them even if we disagree with them.

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https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...crats-n1287252

WASHINGTON — House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy said Monday that if Republicans win control of House in the midterm elections and put him in charge, he would remove some high-profile Democratic members from their committee roles.

"The Democrats have created a new thing where they're picking and choosing who could be on the committee," McCarthy, R-Calif., said in an interview with the conservative outlet Breitbart. "Never in the history have you had the majority tell the minority who could be on committee."

Add another Republican threatening to burn things down for no reason.

McCarthy, upset that many in his caucus have been removed from Committee's as a result of their own grossly unprofessional behavior that's unbecoming of a member of Congress, is just openly threatening to remove Democrats if Republicans take power. Who? AOC, Swalwell, Schiff, you know, anyone that Republicans really don't like.

Note the difference, this isn't for anything they've specifically done - he singles out Omar on Foreign Affairs because...uh...he's a racist piece of shit but that's expected - but rather purely out of retaliation.

Once again, as always, the Republican party does not have any coherent ideology underpinning it and it's a political part about power and grievance and little more.

[Endus]

Once again, Republicans continue to have issues around discussing whether Nazi's are good, bad, or whether we need to treat them as ideological equals and respect them even if we disagree with them.

Speaking as a teacher, the idea that teachers should be expected to stick to just the facts of issues like "fascism" and "racism" is intentionally abusive horseshit. It's an attempt to harm students, to deny them basic fucking education.

There's a whopping fuckin' big difference between a teacher explaining the evils of fascism and a teacher punishing ideological differences. Here's a hot tip; if you can make a legitimate, well-defended argument about fascism being "good, actually", as a teacher, I'll mark it accordingly. But I can tell you right now, I seriously doubt you can make such an argument and have it be legitimate and well-defended, because the conclusion is horseshit. I've questioned a teacher's position on things, and gotten marked positively, and given additional readings I should consider (because this was at high school/first-year post-secondary levels, where your teachers know you know fuck-all). And yeah; I was probably wrong about a lot of shit. And it wasn't baity abusive shit like "fascism/racism is good, actually".

Also, they tried to make an argument opposed to petty bigotries, and emphasizing that teachers need to be fair and supportive of students regardless of race, religion, sex, gender, orientation, etc. Which, yeah. But none of those have clear factually-derived positions that those things are "bad". The same isn't true of various ideologies, and that's why "ideology" is never a protected class. As for "political affiliation", students don't have political affiliations, outside of a pretty narrow slice of Grade 12 students who've turned 18 in an election year in time to vote. If you're not of age, you don't have any political affiliation yet, and if kids start questioning their parents' political views as a result of their education, that's not something that should be seen as worrisome, in and of itself. It's only an issue if it's because of blind indoctrination by teachers; if their parents are blindly partisan, then their kids questioning that is what education looks like.