Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Endus]

Kids will always ask awkward questions. It's part of them being kids and should be expected. What matters is how you handle it, and Crenshaw failed spectacularly. He was the adult in the conversation.

It's not like it was a hard question to handle, either, and speaks volumes about his character.

Another important point is the idea that if you can't explain an opinion to a 10 year old well enough for that child to understand you, you don't actually understand your own belief well enough to express anything about if confidently, in public. Crenshaw knew he couldn't explain this, so he immediately went into attack mode. To a 10-year-old.

Especially since (without getting into the weeds on religious discussion here), holding up your personal faith as unquestionable like that is a form of idolatry and wouldn't be considered theologically defensible in any Christian theology class I'm aware of. As someone who actually has invested in some (minor, as in a college minor) post-secondary theology study. He's not just an asshole because he's being abusive to a kid, he's demonstrating a self-defeating lack of actual faith, by demanding no one "question" it. If you can't defend the holding of faith when challenged, you don't have faith, you have a thin veneer of belief that you've never invested a whit of effort into informing or understanding. It's performative, empty nonsense, nothing more.

Pre-emptive note that's as deep as I'm willing to go on the subject here on these forums, because of the rules (and I'm being careful to keep it pretty broadly on the relatively neutral concept of "faith" itself, rather than specific religious principles or citations that would invite rule-breaking discussion). If you really want to have at me over this, send a PM.

[Edge-]

Another important point is the idea that if you can't explain an opinion to a 10 year old well enough for that child to understand you, you don't actually understand your own belief well enough to express anything about if confidently, in public. Crenshaw knew he couldn't explain this, so he immediately went into attack mode. To a 10-year-old.

Hard disagree on the bold. I don't think he knows this, definitely not actively. It's just that "attack mode" is literally the default for the current conservative movement in the US. Everything is a war/battle. Every interaction is an arena of combat. There are only winners and losers, and if you're not a winner than the only alternative is that you're a loser. It doesn't matter who your foe is, real or fictional, child or adult, you're either first or you're last.

This is a pretty constant theme throughout conservatism in the US, from lawmakers to "mainstream" news/pundits like Carlson to the vanguard of the extreme right and folks like Jones and Bongino.

There's no "turning it off", because that's how they perceive and interact with the world. Crenshaw unintentionally admitted as much last year when talking about grifters like Greene and Gaetz - https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12...ters-backlash/

I mean in the conservative movement. Lie after lie after lie. Because they know something psychologically about the conservative heart. We’re worried about what people are gonna do to us, what they’re gonna infringe upon us.

When that's your starting point, every interaction must be inherently combative.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Hard disagree on the bold. I don't think he knows this, definitely not actively. It's just that "attack mode" is literally the default for the current conservative movement in the US. Everything is a war/battle. Every interaction is an arena of combat. There are only winners and losers, and if you're not a winner than the only alternative is that you're a loser. It doesn't matter who your foe is, real or fictional, child or adult, you're either first or you're last.

This is a pretty constant theme throughout conservatism in the US, from lawmakers to "mainstream" news/pundits like Carlson to the vanguard of the extreme right and folks like Jones and Bongino.

There's no "turning it off", because that's how they perceive and interact with the world. Crenshaw unintentionally admitted as much last year when talking about grifters like Greene and Gaetz - https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12...ters-backlash/



When that's your starting point, every interaction must be inherently combative.

It isn't necessarily just a Conservative thing (and I'm trying desperately not to go "both sides" centrist here). The fact is, any political system that is set up as winner takes all, two sides, ends up as a zero sum game. It's competitive, because it literally is "I win, you lose". That's why this style of politics is so toxic, both in the US and the UK.

If you have a better system, that encourages a LOT of different political parties, then you can grow up as a society and move towards cooperative political processes. I have this idea, I need to persuade enough of my colleagues from different parties that it's a good idea, and if I succeed in that, the idea can proceed. I "team up" with other parties on a case by case basis. And I don't oppose for the sake of it, because I need to support ideas that the people that are voting for me would also support. Because if I don't, they might decide my party isn't the one for them, and move to another.

Both our countries desperately need some form of PR. Because the systems we have are driving us backwards.

[Edge-]

The fact is, any political system that is set up as winner takes all, two sides, ends up as a zero sum game.

I'm not specifically talking about political races and whatnot. I'm talking about everything, including a response to a question from a 10 year old girl. It's a zero-sum game. You either win that battle or you lose it, because those are the only two options available when you frame your reality as a perpetual and all-expansive arena of combat.

It's very much not a "both sides" thing since you don't see this kind of routine behavior from "the left", much less as widespread as we see it amongst conservative politicians, "news media", pundits, influencers etc. etc.

[DarkTZeratul]

It's very much not a "both sides" thing since you don't see this kind of routine behavior from "the left", much less as widespread as we see it amongst conservative politicians, "news media", pundits, influencers etc. etc.

Hell, we didn't even see this kind of behavior as much from most of the "old guard" Conservatives like John McCain.

[Edge-]

Hell, we didn't even see this kind of behavior as much from most of the "old guard" Conservatives like John McCain.

There were some crumbs of it but no, this is not part of the "traditional" conservative mindset in the US. This is very much part of the modern conservative movement, which defines itself by being in a constant state of combat.

[AntiFascistVoter]

To be fair, Crenshaw has gotten used to getting the upper hand on bad interviewers. The beltway obviously need more 10-year-olds to ask questions.

[Edge-]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ntifa-1286664/

One of Trump's Proud Bois, the guy that got shot in the leg the other year, got pinched. Not for the Capitol riot, but for a felony assault with a few other charges in Washington.

And Oregon wants to extradict him to face 8 more felony charges, plus a few more misdemeanors.

Toese was booked into the Thurston County, Washington, jail system on Jan. 5 and is being held not far from the state Capitol. He faces three Washington state charges: Assault in the third degree, a felony, as well as obstructing a law enforcement officer and criminal trespass in the second degree, both gross misdemeanors.

Toese is also being held for extradition to Oregon on a warrant for a litany of serious charges, including three counts of assault in the second degree, three charges of assault in the third degree, two charges of riot — all felonies — as well as two charges of criminal mischief, and two unspecified weapons charges.

I guess he'll be "standing by" for a while.

[gondrin]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ntifa-1286664/

One of Trump's Proud Bois, the guy that got shot in the leg the other year, got pinched. Not for the Capitol riot, but for a felony assault with a few other charges in Washington.

And Oregon wants to extradict him to face 8 more felony charges, plus a few more misdemeanors.



I guess he'll be "standing by" for a while.

And since those are state charges, no pardoning him. I figure he will definitely be somebodies boi in prison.

[Edge-]

And since those are state charges, no pardoning him. I figure he will definitely be somebodies boi in prison.

Not like Trump is in any position to pardon anyone to begin with. Or that he pardoned any of them when he could have.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/...ing-in-oregon/

THEY FOUND ANOTHER INSTANCE OF VOTER FRAUD!!!

Monte Sereno Councilwoman Rowena Turner was convicted of illegal voting last October in Oregon circuit court after allegations that she voted in both California and Oregon for years gained public attention in 2020.

The Republican councilwoman, along with her husband Ahval Turner and son Sean Edward Turner, pleaded “no contest” to charges of illegal voting during the November 2018 general election in Josephine County, Ore., where she owns a vacation home.

Elections records show Turner has been a registered voter in California since at least 1990, when she changed her party affiliation from Democrat to Republican. Documents show she was also registered to vote in Oregon in 1999 after purchasing property in Grants Pass, and voted there in more than a dozen elections from 2004 to the 2020 primary election.

Turner maintains that she is innocent and considers her dual voting lawful.

“I believe I did nothing wrong,” she said in a written statement to this newspaper. “But fighting the charge would have meant spending a year or more in court, with all the concomitant expense.”

Why does it always seem to be Republicans who are engaged in wilfull voter fraud?

[Poopymonster]

There were some crumbs of it but no, this is not part of the "traditional" conservative mindset in the US. This is very much part of the modern conservative movement, which defines itself by being in a constant state of combat.

If they can't have their real war, they're always on edge to fight someone so they can look American Tough(tm).

[Endus]

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/...ing-in-oregon/

THEY FOUND ANOTHER INSTANCE OF VOTER FRAUD!!!



Why does it always seem to be Republicans who are engaged in wilfull voter fraud?

"She considers her double voting lawful".

Well, it's not. And you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. And stating otherwise is just admitting to willful intent, not providing a defense.

[Poopymonster]

And since those are state charges, no pardoning him. I figure he will definitely be somebodies boi in prison.

I hope Wolfgang Cutler keeps him warm at night.

[Nurasu]

I was concerned all this talk about the stolen election would just encourage Republicans to try to cheat more, but since they're already cheating their asses off I guess there's no use worrying.

[Breccia]

So she’s not guilty because she owns land in both places and was voting on behalf of her property.

This reminds me of a meme just after Biden was elected, expressing concern because Biden was elected by about 0.5% of the land in the USA.

Land doesn't vote.

[Edge-]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...ensus-pressure

Good news is that Biden is trying to protect the Census from political fuckery.

Why am I posting this here?

The documents, made public through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by the Brennan Center for Justice and first reported by The New York Times, showed alarm bells going off within the Census Bureau about efforts by political appointees in the Commerce Department to interfere with the count.

“The department is demonstrating an usually, high degree of engagement in technical matters, which is unprecedented relative to the previous censuses,” said a September 2020 email from Ron Jarmin, who was the Census Bureau’s deputy director, to other top agency officials.

Remember when Wilbur Ross repeatedly lied to Congress about his and his departments involvement with the Census, including on if they had any involvement in trying to get the citizenship question added?

I do.

And Wilbur Ross doesn't seem like he's in prison, or even charged with perjury. Hell, he's not even indicted.

I guess when you lie about being a billionaire that means you actually get treated like a billionaire and laws don't apply to you.

[Odinfrost]

Yep, the GOP is just of the opinion it should be more of a factor than people.

The GOP is of the opinion that anything that would easily let them win should be more than a factor than people. So most things. They wouldn't hesitate to make voting rules as such that people have as many votes as the number in their bank account.

[Breccia]

Trump gives up the pretense and just flat-out begs for more time, sobbing like a little girl.

Trump’s lawyers told the Supreme Court that the House committee probing the Jan. 6 attack would suffer no harm if the justices delayed the transfer of Trump administration records to congressional investigators.

The bold assertion came amid an ongoing legal clash between Trump and the House panel over whether a trove of records that investigators say would shed light on the deadly Capitol riot is covered by the former president’s assertion of executive privilege.

Trump’s attorneys, in their latest filing, pushed back on the committee’s claim that a protracted legal fight threatens to undermine its work.

“Respondents will not be harmed by delay,” Trump attorneys wrote, referring to the House panel. “Despite their insistence that the investigation is urgent, more than a year has passed since January 6, 2021. Years remain before the next transition of power.”

“The Committee and the Court have time to make a swift but measured analysis of these important issues and make sure that in the rush to conduct its investigation, the Committee does not do irreparable structural damage in the process,” they added.

I'm just going to assume prosecutors pointed out "it took a year because Trump fought every inch of the way".

Maybe I missed it, but there doesn't appear to be a legal reason for this latest call for a delay. Just "I don't want the world to know about all that stuff I did".

He has a lot to be worried about. Eric Trump just had his phone records subpoena'd so Trump's own can't be far away. In addition, the National Archives are looking at every single page and turning over what they feel isn't covered by Trump's ridiculous, baseless lawsuits.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm. Well. This is interesting.

Attorney General James Takes Action to Force Donald J. Trump, Donald Trump, Jr., and Ivanka Trump to Comply with Ongoing Investigation Into Trump Organization’s Financial Dealings

New York Attorney General Letitia James today took legal action to compel Donald J. Trump, Donald Trump, Jr., and Ivanka Trump to appear for sworn testimony as part of the office’s ongoing civil investigation into the Trump Organization’s financial dealings. The motion to compel filed today seeks a court order enforcing testimonial subpoenas issued to Donald J. Trump, Donald Trump, Jr., and Ivanka Trump, as well as the production of documents held by Donald J. Trump. As the papers filed today make clear, each of the individuals was directly involved in one or more transactions under review. Earlier this month, the Trumps filed a motion to quash these interviews, and the papers filed today by the Attorney General oppose that motion.

Since moving to compel the testimony of Eric Trump in August 2020, the Office of the Attorney General (OAG) has collected significant additional evidence indicating that the Trump Organization used fraudulent or misleading asset valuations to obtain a host of economic benefits, including loans, insurance coverage, and tax deductions. While OAG has not yet reached a final decision regarding whether this evidence merits legal action, the grounds for pursuing the investigation are self-evident. The OAG filed today’s motion to get necessary testimony and evidence from high-ranking corporate personnel with close involvement in the events under investigation to determine, among other things, their relevant knowledge about those events.

“For more than two years, the Trump Organization has used delay tactics and litigation in an attempt to thwart a legitimate investigation into its financial dealings,” said Attorney General James. “Thus far in our investigation, we have uncovered significant evidence that suggests Donald J. Trump and the Trump Organization falsely and fraudulently valued multiple assets and misrepresented those values to financial institutions for economic benefit. The Trumps must comply with our lawful subpoenas for documents and testimony because no one in this country can pick and choose if and how the law applies to them. We will not be deterred in our efforts to continue this investigation and ensure that no one is above the law.”

(a bunch of stuff follows)

Donald J. Trump, Donald Trump, Jr., and Ivanka Trump do not dispute that they were each properly served with subpoenas calling for their testimony. At the outset, Donald J. Trump offered no objection to that portion of his subpoena seeking the production of documents. To the contrary, on December 3, 2021, while leaving open the question of whether he would appear for testimony and objecting to the document return date of December 17, 2021, counsel for Mr. Trump agreed to produce responsive documents in advance of his testimony.

Today’s motion to compel was submitted under New York state’s Executive Law § 63(12), which gives OAG broad powers to investigate fraud and illegality in the conduct of business.

Shots. Fired.

The release goes on to say more about how Trump lied to insurers, the IRS, his banks, or some combination of the three. We all know he told the IRS one thing, insurers another, and possibly a third to banks to get loans -- possibly fraudulently. That's old news, and probably still illegal. There are bits here I, at least, hadn't seen before:

• Misstated objective facts, like the size of Mr. Trump’s Trump Tower penthouse;
• Miscategorized assets outside Mr. Trump’s or the Trump Organization’s control as “cash,” thereby overstating his liquidity;
• Misstated the process by which Mr. Trump or his associates reached valuations, including deviations from generally accepted accounting principles in ways that the statements did not disclose;
• Failed to use fundamental techniques of valuation, like discounting future revenues and expenses to their present value, or choosing as “comparables” only similar properties in order to impute valuations from public sales data;
• Misstated the purported involvement of “outside professionals” in reaching the valuations; and
• Failed to advise that certain valuation amounts were inflated by an undisclosed amount for brand value.

Also, it looks like his accountants ratted him out told the truth under due process of law as required.

This looks like a black-and-white case of "Trump will need to testify". I admit, it's possible he's not guilty -- some lineup of loopholes that allowed him to exploit the system without actually committing a crime, perhaps. But the NY AG is clearly not going to just allow this to be handwaved with anything less than proof.

There's plenty of smoke. It's time to see the liar liar pants on fire.

EDIT: For more on the topic, if you're into legal filings, here's thirty-five pages of stuff. It appears to be an extension of prosecutor's arguments in direct rebuttal of Trump's attempts to dismiss under the heading of "I don't want to admit all that stuff I did".

- - - Updated - - -

Giuliani and Powell subpoena'd.

In addition to Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer and a ringleader of the group, the panel subpoenaed three others who played central roles in his effort to use the courts, state legislatures and Congress to try to overturn his defeat.

Jenna Ellis drafted a memo on how Mr. Trump could invalidate the election results by exploiting an obscure law. Sidney Powell, a lawyer who worked on many of the lawsuits with Mr. Giuliani, ran an organization that raised millions of dollars based on false claims that election machines were rigged. Boris Epshteyn pursued allegations of election fraud in Nevada and Arizona and is said to have participated in a call with Mr. Trump on the morning of Jan. 6, “during which options were discussed to delay the certification of election results,” the committee said.

“The four individuals we’ve subpoenaed today advanced unsupported theories about election fraud, pushed efforts to overturn the election results or were in direct contact with the former president about attempts to stop the counting of electoral votes,” Representative Bennie Thompson, Democrat of Mississippi and the chairman of the committee, said in a statement.

Giuliani is claiming that he wasn't asked nicely before being subpoena'd. That's false, of course. Even if Schiff going on TV and saying it directly into the camera was somehow not enough, or the subpoena to Kerik, one of Giuliani's closest aides, he's known since February this was a realistic result, plus his fellow WH staffers...oh. Right. Plus his fellow people working in the White House have been subpoena'd right and alt-right. We've been discussing them for months. You'd have to be so senile black liquid is literally pouring out of your skull to not see this coming.

[Endus]

I'm just going to assume prosecutors pointed out "it took a year because Trump fought every inch of the way".

Maybe I missed it, but there doesn't appear to be a legal reason for this latest call for a delay. Just "I don't want the world to know about all that stuff I did".

There's a simple reason.

If he can hem and haw and delay and stall until 2024, there's every chance he or an ally might get elected President, and pardon him and his family for whatever crimes they may have committed. You think Trump won't give himself a blanket pardon on Day 1 if he were re-elected?

Hell, he can theoretically run for President from prison, though he can't make campaign stops from a prison cell.

These are all delay tactics, because 2024 is all that really matters. If he can hit the target and win in 2024, all this is pointless.

[Kaleredar]

There's a simple reason.

If he can hem and haw and delay and stall until 2024, there's every chance he or an ally might get elected President, and pardon him and his family for whatever crimes they may have committed. You think Trump won't give himself a blanket pardon on Day 1 if he were re-elected?

Hell, he can theoretically run for President from prison, though he can't make campaign stops from a prison cell.

These are all delay tactics, because 2024 is all that really matters. If he can hit the target and win in 2024, all this is pointless.

For the January 6th commission maybe. But for state crimes (like in New York, which appears to be moving quite efficiently,) he’d still be fucked. He can’t pardon or be pardoned out of those.