1. #78721
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Ehh, technically, no, it isn't;

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381

    "Treason", under US law, requires you be acting to benefit enemies of the state or levying war against the USA.

    But that's okay. There's another entry that fits;

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383

    "Rebellion or insurrection". Fun note; anyone providing any aid or comfort to any insurrectionist is also guilty of insurrection.

    Second fun note; both these charges mean that, when convicted, the perpetrator can't ever hold any position in the US government ever again. If they're a sitting member of Congress or even the current President, such a conviction would immediately remove them from office, and bar them from ever running again.
    wikipedia (I know, I know, hardly a good source) defines levying war as "Levying war means the assembly of armed people to overthrow of the government or to resist its laws." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaso...States#Federal

    I'd argue the jan 6 murderous insurrection fits the definition of an armed group of people aiming to overthrow the government.

    Ofcourse no one is actually going to be found guilty of treason but jan 6th comes about as close as you can get to actual legit treason against the state without being at war.
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2021-10-24 at 06:19 PM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  2. #78722
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    wikipedia (I know, I know, hardly a good source) defines levying war as "Levying war means the assembly of armed people to overthrow of the government or to resist its laws." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaso...States#Federal

    I'd argue the jan 6 murderous insurrection fits the definition of an armed group of people aiming to overthrow the government.

    Ofcourse no one is actually going to be found guilty of treason but jan 6th comes about as close as you can get to actual legit treason against the state without being at war.
    Hence the "technically", and the note about the precise wording of US law.

    After the Beer Hall Putsch in the Weimar Republic, Hitler went to prison for treason, for the reasons you're saying. That's why this is very much a technical distinction on a specific jurisdiction's legal terminology.

    But, being accurate on that terminology makes it easier to avoid having some bad-faith actor come in ignoring your point and saying it's not treason and therefore we shouldn't think it was illegal at all. They'll do it anyway, of course, but it's nice to have the technical details on your side too.


  3. #78723
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Hence the "technically", and the note about the precise wording of US law.
    Yeah, we're more discussing which name the horribly unethical, horribly immoral, completely deplorable action should be given. It's like the difference between slander and libel when both mean "lying in public to damage someone".

  4. #78724
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Yeah, we're more discussing which name the horribly unethical, horribly immoral, completely deplorable action should be given. It's like the difference between slander and libel when both mean "lying in public to damage someone".
    Yeah. I just don't like providing them even a shred of possible uncertainty they can use to pretend they have a valid counterpoint with.

    Like, it's insurrection. That's still illegal, still bars you from any federal public office forever, and still justifies locking every one of these fuckos away for up to 5 years, even just for driving family to attend the event, or not reporting said family members to the police when they knew what they'd done, or calling them "patriots" on television in the aftermath.

    If they want to come forward and seek a plea deal, we can talk about less than 5 years in prison. If they don't? Every goddamned one of them should be facing the full 5, and that's before we tack on additional charges for various other actions.

    If the USA's gonna be a police state with massive levels of imprisonment relative to other nations, the least you can do is punish this kind of shit severely, rather than harassing black kids over a bit of weed.


  5. #78725
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    harassing black kids over a bit of weed.
    I thought it was a bag of Skittles?

  6. #78726
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I thought it was a bag of Skittles?
    I mean, it's for anything, really. Sometimes just for being black and in a cop's sightline.

    Or in Tennessee, for literally whatever that one judge just makes up in her own stupid, racist fucking head. Literally; she's putting children in juvenile prison for "crimes" that don't exist. And she's still on the bench. And still doing it. It came to light, and nothing's been done.


  7. #78727
    I am Murloc! Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I thought it was a bag of Skittles?
    With Arizona Iced Tea. It's the two together that's dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  8. #78728
    Banned unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I mean, it's for anything, really. Sometimes just for being black and in a cop's sightline.

    Or in Tennessee, for literally whatever that one judge just makes up in her own stupid, racist fucking head. Literally; she's putting children in juvenile prison for "crimes" that don't exist. And she's still on the bench. And still doing it. It came to light, and nothing's been done.
    That article was fucking infuriating.

  9. #78729
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Like, the words... I don't even...
    I do.

    UPDATE: That same Florida doctor were thrown out of a FL Senate meeting for refusing to wear a mask.

    "Well surely he wasn't asked."

    He was, by a FL Senator who was there, who told them she had a serious medical condition. He still refused.

    It shouldn’t take a cancer diagnosis for people to respect each other’s level of comfort with social interactions during a pandemic. What occurred in Senator Polsky’s office was unprofessional and will not be tolerated in the Senate.
    "Of course some commie librul socialist would complain!"

    Actually that was the head of the FL Senate. A Republican.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Jan 6th committee went on Sunday news shows (well some of them did) and said

    1) The attack was premedidated
    2) Bannon was involved
    3) We don't know if 1) and 2) are connected because Bannon refuses to comply with the committee

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sen. Paul calls for Fauci to be fired for showing "poor judgement".

    No, really.

    "What poor judgement?"

    Getting COVID and going swimming in the Senate pool.

    "No no, Fauci."

    Oh, that would be funding research that created the COVID virus.

    "WHAT? Fauci did that?"

    Of course not. But Fauci claims he did.

    In the letter they acknowledge that yes, the viruses did gain in function, they became more dangerous. So they've created a virus that doesn't exist in nature to become more dangerous, that is gain of function.

    Now they try to justify it by saying well it was an unexpected result. I'm not sure I buy that. Think about it you take an unknown virus, you combine it with another virus and you get a super virus. You have no idea whether it gains functions or loses function, that's what the experiment is, but I don't know how anybody could argue that that's not gain of function research
    "Does he have any medical backing for that claim?"

    No. He basically said Fauci spliced a pig and elephant together and got the Alien vs. Predator: Requiem movie.

    "That doesn't make sense."

    Well, neither does what Paul said. Paul continues to push for "investigations" into how Fauci "lied" despite having only fiction to press charges.

    But then, that's the Party of Trump playbook, isn't it? Make up a wild accusation and then demand to "restore trust". Election fraud! Clinton had a stroke! Biden and Biden alone and nobody else in any way raised gas prices! We demand an investigation into our baseless claims and anyone who resists is a guilty criminal!

    "So...when's Trump taking the stand?"

    Oh fuck, no.

    - - - Updated - - -

    DeSantis bribes out-of-state unvaccinated cops to work in Florida.

    Yes, he's intentionally bringing in unvaccinated cops. On purpose. And paying them to relocate.

    DeSantis absolutely wants to kill every single human being in his own state.

  10. #78730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Most of the people holding now are going to lose their shirts based on what little planning and infrastructure this company has actually built up for the trump social media. Its going to be one of the worst product releases ever, that is if it ever does get released.
    I wish Trump were a bit more like Mike Lindell, because I'd love to see him hosting a cyber symposium of his own. But you know he's just putting his name on it and letting other people do the work and assume most of the risk, like usual.

  11. #78731
    @Breccia I’d say DeSantis is frustrated his state’s numbers are so low he’s importing people to raise that number. Remember, Covid has killed more cops than anything else in the last 1.5 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I wish Trump were a bit more like Mike Lindell, because I'd love to see him hosting a cyber symposium of his own. But you know he's just putting his name on it and letting other people do the work and assume most of the risk, like usual.
    I mean, he’s been holding regular rallies where he rants like a crackhead. The only difference between the two is Trump actually draws a decent sized crowd.

  12. #78732
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Today in "The Trump family is deplorable" Donnie Dum-Dum Jr is selling Alec Baldwin T-shirts.

    No, really.

  13. #78733
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Today in "The Trump family is deplorable" Donnie Dum-Dum Jr is selling Alec Baldwin T-shirts.

    No, really.
    Capitalism, ho!

    Why does someone so rich need to sell some shitty t-shirts?

    Also, whatever happened to civility and decorum?

  14. #78734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Today in "The Trump family is deplorable" Donnie Dum-Dum Jr is selling Alec Baldwin T-shirts.

    No, really.
    That's pretty terrible even by Trumpian standards. I can only imagine Alec is drowning in guilt and sadness for his role in the accident.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  15. #78735
    https://thehill.com/changing-america...cinated-police

    FL offering $5K bonuses to unvaxxed cops that move to the state.

    I guess they're paying a premium for cops who don't actually care about public safety. Kinda weird given the profession, but it's Florida so...I guess this is to be expected.

  16. #78736
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    Today in treason/insurrection/whatever you want to call directly attacking democracy news:

    Rolling Stone has talked to two people, and confirmed from a third, all of whom were Jan 6th organizers, that GOP lawmakers were 100% involved in the steps leading up to what would be the murderous insurrection. They at least named Greene, Gohmert Gosar and Chief of Staff Meadows. Wait, what?

    (checks worst timeline)

    Huh. Turns out, he actually did exist. Anyhow, yes this is the same Mard Meadows who was personally, specifically, and directly warned of violence at the rally we now know he helped organize, and did nothing.

    Both sources also describe Trump’s White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, as someone who played a major role in the conversations surrounding the protests on Jan. 6. Among other things, they both say concerns were raised to Meadows about Alexander’s protest at the Capitol and the potential that it could spark violence. Meadows was subpoenaed by the committee last month as part of a group of four people “with close ties to the former President who were working in or had communications with the White House on or in the days leading up to the January 6th insurrection.”
    Both sources Rolling Stone talked to have been talking to the Jan 6th Committee freely. As in "we have been granted immunity" level of freely. They are ratting everyone out.

    "Wait, don't immunity deals normally require proof, not just someone begging for their life?"

    I think so? @cubby can help. But since one is a rally organizer and one was an event planner, I get the feeling they have enough emails to back their story, including this one: one of the two says Gosar basically told them everyone involved was looking at a blanket pardon.

    “We would talk to Boebert’s team, Cawthorn’s team, Gosar’s team like back to back to back to back,” says the organizer.

    And Gosar, who has been one of the most prominent defenders of the Jan. 6 rioters, allegedly took things a step further. Both sources say he dangled the possibility of a “blanket pardon” in an unrelated ongoing investigation to encourage them to plan the protests.

    Our impression was that it was a done deal,” the organizer says, “that he’d spoken to the president about it in the Oval … in a meeting about pardons and that our names came up. They were working on submitting the paperwork and getting members of the House Freedom Caucus to sign on as a show of support.”

    The organizer claims the pair received “several assurances” about the “blanket pardon” from Gosar.

    “I was just going over the list of pardons and we just wanted to tell you guys how much we appreciate all the hard work you’ve been doing,” Gosar said, according to the organizer.

    The rally planner describes the pardon as being offered while “encouraging” the staging of protests against the election. While the organizer says they did not get involved in planning the rallies solely due to the pardon, they were upset that it ultimately did not materialize.

    “I would have done it either way with or without the pardon,” the organizer says. “I do truly believe in this country, but to use something like that and put that out on the table when someone is so desperate, it’s really not good business.”
    So, either the source is lying -- which, considering he told this to Congress, is a really fucking stupid idea -- Gosar is lying, or Trump changed his mind. I handwave the first option. Either of the remaining two ways, the Party of Trump left the murderous insurrectionists they helped organize towards violence out to dry. Which is also not smart, since yeah, they have emails and are ratting you out.

    "Well that's just one guy who--"

    Has evidence.

    "Maybe, but that's just one guy claiming it was Gosar. Surely there's nothing else indicating this very fine people on both sides did anything."

    There is.

    In another indication members of Congress may have been involved in planning the protests against the election, Ali Alexander, who helped organize the “Wild Protest,” declared in a since-deleted livestream broadcast that Gosar, Brooks, and Biggs helped him formulate the strategy for that event.

    I was the person who came up with the Jan. 6 idea with Congressman Gosar, Congressman Mo Brooks, and Congressman Andy Biggs,” Alexander said at the time. “We four schemed up on putting maximum pressure on Congress while they were voting so that — who we couldn’t lobby — we could change the hearts and the minds of Republicans who were in that body hearing our loud roar from outside.”

    Alexander led Stop the Steal, which was one of the main groups promoting efforts to dispute Trump’s loss. In December, he organized a Stop the Steal event in Phoenix, where Gosar was one the main speakers. At that demonstration, Alexander referred to Gosar as “my captain” and declared “one of the other heroes has been Congressman Andy Biggs.”
    "Well clearly these are both just bitter ex-employees, so to speak."

    No, they are both still full Trump supporters.

    "Well clearly they are only saying these cowardly words in private and never will have to in public."

    No, both expect to testify publicly. And, just so we're clear, angrily.


    "Well if they had such concerns, why did they storm the *cough* peacefully take a tour inside the Capitol as peaceful tourists do?"

    They didn't.

    “The reason I’m talking to the committee and the reason it’s so important is that — despite Republicans refusing to participate … this commission’s all we got as far as being able to uncover the truth about what happened at the Capitol that day,” the organizer says. “It’s clear that a lot of bad actors set out to cause chaos. … They made us all look like shit.”

    And Trump, they admit, was one of those bad actors. A representative for Trump did not respond to a request for comment.

    “The breaking point for me [on Jan. 6 was when] Trump starts talking about walking to the Capitol,” the organizer says. “I was like. ‘Let’s get the fuck out of here.’ ”

    “I do kind of feel abandoned by Trump,” says the planner. “I’m actually pretty pissed about it and I’m pissed at him.”
    "Well at least that toned-down, even-headed language means they don't feel completely buttf--"

    The organizer offers an even more succinct assessment when asked what they would say to Trump.

    “What the fuck?” the organizer says.
    "Thanks, Rolling Stone."

    Not only do both of these sources clearly feel betrayed by Trump -- big surprise, I know -- they are both testifying and very likely have turned over records. We're seeing more and more that the reason the Party of Trump didn't want to find out the truth behind the murderous insurrection, is because they already knew it -- and they're guilty.

    "Wait, isn't Gosar from Arizona?"

    Yes.

    "Wasn't he all-in on the Maricopa recount?"

    Yes.

    "So, he's a serial insurrectionist, then?"

    Yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Also, whatever happened to civility and decorum?
    Oh, that's only for them being called out on their shitty behavior. That's how freedom of speech works, right? You can say anything, but nobody is allowed to criticize you? Including Trumptok where you can't criticize Trumptok?

    - - - Updated - - -

    The title of this OP ED is "
    Is Kim Jong Un angling for nuclear talks on his terms?
    "

    I have an answer: "What makes him think it would work?" Trump is no longer in office. He's back to square one. Biden can't be bribed by fast-food hamburgers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yet another Republican indicted on campaign finance violation. Just a state senator from Tennessee but it sure shows a pattern.

  17. #78737
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Today in treason/insurrection/whatever you want to call directly attacking democracy news:

    Rolling Stone has talked to two people, and confirmed from a third, all of whom were Jan 6th organizers, that GOP lawmakers were 100% involved in the steps leading up to what would be the murderous insurrection. They at least named Greene, Gohmert Gosar and Chief of Staff Meadows. Wait, what?

    (checks worst timeline)

    Huh. Turns out, he actually did exist. Anyhow, yes this is the same Mard Meadows who was personally, specifically, and directly warned of violence at the rally we now know he helped organize, and did nothing.



    Both sources Rolling Stone talked to have been talking to the Jan 6th Committee freely. As in "we have been granted immunity" level of freely. They are ratting everyone out.

    "Wait, don't immunity deals normally require proof, not just someone begging for their life?"

    I think so? @cubby can help. But since one is a rally organizer and one was an event planner, I get the feeling they have enough emails to back their story, including this one: one of the two says Gosar basically told them everyone involved was looking at a blanket pardon.



    So, either the source is lying -- which, considering he told this to Congress, is a really fucking stupid idea -- Gosar is lying, or Trump changed his mind. I handwave the first option. Either of the remaining two ways, the Party of Trump left the murderous insurrectionists they helped organize towards violence out to dry. Which is also not smart, since yeah, they have emails and are ratting you out.

    "Well that's just one guy who--"

    Has evidence.

    "Maybe, but that's just one guy claiming it was Gosar. Surely there's nothing else indicating this very fine people on both sides did anything."

    There is.



    "Well clearly these are both just bitter ex-employees, so to speak."

    No, they are both still full Trump supporters.

    "Well clearly they are only saying these cowardly words in private and never will have to in public."

    No, both expect to testify publicly. And, just so we're clear, angrily.


    "Well if they had such concerns, why did they storm the *cough* peacefully take a tour inside the Capitol as peaceful tourists do?"

    They didn't.



    "Well at least that toned-down, even-headed language means they don't feel completely buttf--"



    "Thanks, Rolling Stone."

    Not only do both of these sources clearly feel betrayed by Trump -- big surprise, I know -- they are both testifying and very likely have turned over records. We're seeing more and more that the reason the Party of Trump didn't want to find out the truth behind the murderous insurrection, is because they already knew it -- and they're guilty.

    "Wait, isn't Gosar from Arizona?"

    Yes.

    "Wasn't he all-in on the Maricopa recount?"

    Yes.

    "So, he's a serial insurrectionist, then?"

    Yes..
    To me, and I posted in the Insurrection thread (not with this much fantastic detail though), this develop is what we would call in the legal field a game changer. Previously, we've had deniability, that there was no coordinated organization by planners and Members of Congress and White House.

    This development changes the entire narrative (see also lie). If the emails and sources back the claims, this is how a case for treason and insurrection is made. There are statements that Mark Meadow (Trump's Chief of Staff) was involved in the planning, then we are in real trouble.

    We are in trouble as a country because 74,000,000+ people won't "believe" this. And yet it's objective evidence, now, that we had planning before hand with promises of Pardons after the fact.

    This. Is. Very. Bad. We are in trouble because it's solid case to make against organizers and Members of our government. If the entire investigation isn't ratcheted up and taken to a new level, we will continue to suffer as a law and order country.

  18. #78738
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post

    The title of this OP ED is "
    Is Kim Jong Un angling for nuclear talks on his terms?
    "

    I have an answer: "What makes him think it would work?" Trump is no longer in office. He's back to square one. Biden can't be bribed by fast-food hamburgers.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Generally less fast food will bribe him and more like the Japanese men in the Chinpokomon episode of South Park. Constantly telling Trump his penis is so big and that North Korean penis is so small and boom you got Trump eating out of your hand.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Capitalism, ho!

    Why does someone so rich need to sell some shitty t-shirts?

    Also, whatever happened to civility and decorum?
    Because if you haven't noticed they really aren't all that rich. His family double lies on all their properties to raise value for high earning properties while paying low taxes on failing properties which are one in the same. Wonderfully though the chickens have come home to roost for the Trump clan with hopefully criminal charges for them all for tax fraud. With a heaping helping of total bankruptcy since no bank will lend to them anymore.

  19. #78739
    Well, now Trump pissed off the Cowboys. Not the football team.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgntp

    Cowboys for Trump founder Couy Griffin, who is facing charges in connection with the U.S. Capitol riot, has turned on the former president in a conference speech for abandoning January 6 rioters and failing to deliver on a campaign promise.

    "We supported President Trump because of his fight for justice as well. And for four years we cried, 'Lock her up. Lock her up. Lock her up.' We know she's a criminal. What did the president tell us? 'If I was in charge of the law, you'd be in jail,'" Griffin said Sunday at a QAnon conference in Las Vegas, Nevada.

    "Mr. President, you've been in charge of the law for four years," he added. "At the end of your four year time, the only ones locked up were men like me, and others like me, that have stood by the president the strongest."
    I always found it funny that nobody who supports Trump will ever answer my question of "If Trump really gave a damn about those who supported him on Jan 6th, why didn't he just pardon them all instead of a bunch of people who stole and scammed from people?"

    Still waiting for an answer.

  20. #78740
    I love everything about it.

    Believing the obvious lies.
    Fawning adoration of a wannabe authoritarian.
    Believing Trump "is the law" as POTUS and can do what he wants.
    Being surprised that Trump abandoned people who weren't of use to him.

    You love to see it.

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