Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[gondrin]

Well, according to the judge who assigned the Special Master, they cite "reputational harm" as the reason. Forgetting that the reputation that Trump has, outside of his extremist base, is of a big, whiney thin-skinned bitch. That has always been a thing. He even admits to it on an old CNN interview about the Trump Casino.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...23072969385a37

Judge cites 'reputational harm' to Trump in ordering a Mar-a-Lago special master and pause in probe

Afederal judge who ordered the appointment of a special master to review documents seized in last month's search of Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago beach club, repeatedly expressed concerns about the unprecedented nature of the law enforcement action, indicating that the ruling was necessary to promote a perception of fairness.

U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon ruled that Trump's position as a former president meant the seizure of documents carried a stigma "in a league of its own" and that any future indictment "would result in reputational harm."

Cannon, who also called for a temporary halt to the federal inquiry until a document review is completed, asked Trump's team and the government to submit potential candidates for the special master role by Sept. 9.

The decision raised several issues for the investigation into potential violations of the Espionage Act or obstruction of justice:

Although Cannon's decision came nearly a month after the Aug. 8 search, she voiced concern about maintaining a "perception of fairness."

Cannon ruled that Trump's position as a former president meant the seizure of documents carried a stigma and that any indictment "would result in reputational harm of a decidedly different order of magnitude."

Cannon's concern echoed Russia special counsel Robert Mueller's reasoning in refusing to decide whether to charge Trump with obstruction of justice in that investigation because he wouldn't have had a forum to defend himself.

National security lawyers said defense lawyers would be "salivating" over the decision because it favored defendants.

Will the Justice Department appeal? A department spokesman said the government is reviewing the decision.

Here is what we know about Cannon's ruling and its implications:

Federal judge cites need to promote 'fairness' in DOJ investigation
Throughout her ruling Cannon acknowledged the high profile nature of the investigation and the intense "public interest" as factors in her decision.

“Plaintiff ultimately may not be entitled to return of much of the seized property or to prevail on his anticipated claims of privilege,” the judge wrote. “That inquiry remains for another day. For now, the circumstances surrounding the seizure in this case and the associated need for adequate procedural safeguards are sufficiently compelling to at least get Plaintiff past the courthouse doors.

“A commitment to the appearance of fairness is critical, now more than ever,” she said.

For the same reasons, Cannon determined that the government’s own team of screeners, which sorted the documents that may represent privileged attorney communications, was not adequate in a case of this magnitude.

The judge said Trump’s team had established the possibility of “irreparable injury,” saying there was a risk that the government’s team “will not adequately safeguard Plaintiff’s privileged and personal materials in terms of exposure to either the Investigative Team or the media.”

"As a function of Plaintiff’s former position as President of the United States, the stigma associated with the subject seizure is in a league of its own," Cannon wrote. "A future indictment, based to any degree on property that ought to be returned, would result in reputational harm of a decidedly different order of magnitude."

“Plaintiff has shown, all in all, that the public and private interests at stake support a temporary enjoinment on the use of the seized materials for investigative purposes, without impacting the Government’s ongoing national security review,” Cannon wrote. “As Plaintiff articulated at the hearing, the investigation and treatment of a former president is of unique interest to the general public, and the country is served best by an orderly process that promotes the interest and perception of fairness.”

Legal experts said the decision seemed "very sympathetic" to Trump. Carl Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond, said he expects the Justice Department to appeal the ruling, but that the litigation will "greatly delay" the investigation.

"I think that the judge seems very sympathetic to Trump in nearly all of her rulings and much more so than for other defendants similarly situated," Tobias said. "She also seems to overstate the unprecedented nature of the case and understate the unprecedented nature of Trump’s behavior with national security and national defense documents.

Bradley Moss, a national-security lawyer, said the ruling seems written for Trump alone.

"This is Cannon making a special exception to the case law just for Trump," Moss said in a tweet. "Criminal defense lawyers will be salivating over this analysis but every other judge will reject using it because this is meant for Trump and Trump alone."

Renato Mariotti, a former federal prosecutor, agreed that defense lawyers would cite Cannon’s decision because it represented a “significant” shift to defendants.

“Every defendant suffers massive reputational damage from an indictment," Mariotti said in a tweet. "I agree that we will cite this case law in other criminal cases, because if you take it at face value, it is a significant shift to the defense."

David Weinstein, a former federal prosecutor, said the judge appeared to be moved by an intent to “ensure a level playing field and the appearance of integrity within the ongoing investigation.”

“This is a temporary win for the former President and one that, after the review by the special master, could turn into an overall loss.,” Weinstein said.

“While this also puts a pause on the use of this information in DOJ’s ongoing criminal investigation, it does not stop the evaluation of other evidence by the DOJ or their presentation to the grand jury,” he said. “Realistically, given the upcoming elections in November and DOJ’s internal policy on announcing indictments within 60 days of an election, it was unlikely that any significant charges related to this search would have been released before the end of November.”

The Justice Department did not immediately signal whether it would appeal the ruling.

"The United States is examining the opinion and will consider appropriate next steps in the ongoing litigation.” Justice spokesman Anthony Coley said.

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Bet you 20 bucks it was just Don Jr in the back half of a Halloween costume.

Well, Don Jr is a horses ass a lot of the time. However, I'll go with Eric.

[Paranoid Android]

Well, according to the judge who assigned the Special Master, they cite "reputational harm" as the reason. Forgetting that the reputation that Trump has, outside of his extremist base, is of a big, whiney thin-skinned bitch. That has always been a thing. He even admits to it on an old CNN interview about the Trump Casino.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...23072969385a37



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Well, Don Jr is a horses ass a lot of the time. However, I'll go with Eric.

In my short post the judge really is a hack. A Trump appointee with Federalist stamp. Basically tried to make the argument for Trump's incompetent lawyers.

From what I read it's once more unprecedented for giving a President immunity. The DOJ has to stop everything. That's nuts. Now they have to find special master who has classified clearance (this could be frightening). Most say a delay at best, but always have caution.

[Poopymonster]

In my short post the judge really is a hack. A Trump appointee with Federalist stamp. Basically tried to make the argument for Trump's incompetent lawyers.

From what I read it's once more unprecedented for giving a President immunity. The DOJ has to stop everything. That's nuts. Now they have to find special master who has classified clearance (this could be frightening). Most say a delay at best, but always have caution.

I'm sure Mueller would be fine to jump in. After all, did he not " I DID NOTHING WRONG THEY FOUND NOTHING WRONG WITCH HUNT NO COLLUSION INNOCENT BUT HER EMAILS I AM BESTEST BOY"?

Sounds like he's be the perfect impartial person to look into it, probably has the clearance to do so also.

[Breccia]

The biggest problem for Trump is finding a special master now with Top Secret clearance.

Indeed, it's worse than that. Both Team Trump and the DoJ have been asked to make a list, by Friday I thinK? The DoJ list will have hundreds of names by (checks watch) four hours ago.

Who will Trump nominate? Seriously, who would he pick, that both has a clearance, and also isn't yet on his hit list? I don't know if the judge is willing to put a direct Trump ally on this, that's grounds for instant appeal, but even if she was, who's left?

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"the ruling was necessary to promote a perception of fairness"

Giving her some credit, I actually believe that. Trump is fucked, but every single lifeline must be thrown, just so the public can see them fail, that's how fucked he is.

The judge must know Executive Privilege only applies on things Trump wasn't allowed to take, and lawyer-client won't be in government files. She's at least seen the list of items if not the items themselves. Even if she wants to abuse her power and help Trump, the best way for that to happen is for Trump to get an appeal, one step closer to SCOTUS. Trump will file regardless, so basically, everything else she does is crossing every T and dotting every I.

[postman1782]

Well, according to the judge who assigned the Special Master, they cite "reputational harm" as the reason. Forgetting that the reputation that Trump has, outside of his extremist base, is of a big, whiney thin-skinned bitch. That has always been a thing. He even admits to it on an old CNN interview about the Trump Casino.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...23072969385a37



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Well, Don Jr is a horses ass a lot of the time. However, I'll go with Eric.

I have a feeling that this will be appealed and should be overturned, because its 100% bullshit.

[tehdang]

So Trump prevails on his claim for special master, and the government is punished for failing to screen for documents potentially protected by executive privilege, and mishaps in the filter review process ("at least two instances in which members of the Investigative Team were exposed to material ... designated as potentially privileged material"). I expected the citation of Nixon ever since the government made the absurd claim that nothing was potentially subject to executive privilege. She cites it here.

The DoJ better slow down and not overreach in future. Trump is entitled to make executive privilege claims, which isn't the same as eventually succeeding on those claims. The DoJ made unforced errors on passports and attorney-client privileged documents. Time to pay the piper on that one.

DoJ: Judge, we already screened this shit. We have 520 pages of potentially privileged material. This is unneccessary.
Judge: You already admitted to two times you screwed up, so don't tell me the process was adequate. We're interested in an impartial review of all that got swept up in the raid, not least of which is the public perception. And you dummies, you didn't follow court precedent on executive privilege, so there must be a second review for that reason as well.

https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.ne...asterOrder.pdf

[Ripster42]

I don't see a big problem with appointing a special master. DoJ is still going to get all relevant material. This isn't the only evidence they've got. I expect the people from the DoJ who are working on the case are going to spend the time war gaming different scenarios and will have blocked out briefs waiting to fill in the blanks, while all the while gathering more info through whatever investigative sources weren't disclosed when the judge had them release the redacted affidavit (as well as hoovering up all his fake tweets for more evidence of consciousness of guilt).

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The DoJ better slow down and not overreach in future. Trump is entitled to make executive privilege claims, which isn't the same as eventually succeeding on those claims. The DoJ made unforced errors on passports and attorney-client privileged documents. Time to pay the piper on that one.
]

I can make executive privilege claims. Doesn't matter as the current executive is the one who has to actually enforce it. Trump claiming executive privilege means jack shit.

[Breccia]

the government made the absurd claim that nothing was potentially subject to executive privilege.

If it is covered by Executive Privilege, then it's WH property, not Trump's, and if Trump had it in his basement he's guilty of a crime.

Thank you for admitting Trump is guilty of stealing WH property. I'm legit surprised you came around so quickly, considering he hasn't officially been charged yet. I thought you'd hold out at least until the cuffs clinked closed.

[tehdang]

I can make executive privilege claims. Doesn't matter as the current executive is the one who has to actually enforce it. Trump claiming executive privilege means jack shit.

I expected the citation of Nixon ever since the government made the absurd claim that nothing was potentially subject to executive privilege. She cites it here.

It's in past Supreme Court precedent, cited in her order. It's also common sense that advisors would not give the president their real advice, if they knew a rival administration could seize and publish it afterwards if it were embarrassing in some policy areas.

Also, maybe your real issue is executive privilege in itself. You may not think the president's advisors should have confidentiality in their advice to him, in office or immediately after office.

If it is covered by Executive Privilege, then it's WH property, not Trump's, and if Trump had it in his basement he's guilty of a crime.

The Supreme Court refused to rule out one president asserting executive privilege over an incumbent president. Because, do you really want Republicans sifting through everything someone told Biden just because they took control of the White House (hence DoJ) and seized it in a raid? Those are privileged communications, and ought to be tested in court to the situations where that privilege may be overridden.

Thank you for admitting Trump is guilty of stealing WH property. I'm legit surprised you came around so quickly, considering he hasn't officially been charged yet. I thought you'd hold out at least until the cuffs clinked closed.

I have adopted a wait-and-see attitude, in view of the selective DoJ leaks and recent history, and you can review my past posts on the subject if you're confused.

[Breccia]

Trump claiming executive privilege means jack shit.

Well not, it's admission of guilt. Trump saying items were covered by privilege means they belong to the WH, not to Trump. It's just like tehdang admitted oddly out of character.

[Edge-]

It's also common sense that advisors would not give the president their real advice, if they knew a rival administration could seize and publish it afterwards if it were embarrassing in some policy areas.

This is absolutely unhinged thinking and not the type of thing that presidents have ever, or would ever traditionally do. Not even as partisanship increased.

This requires such a level of hyperpartisanship to the point where you're willing to put the entire nation at risk over petty politics that I'm struggling to believe you view this as common sense. There is no history of this that I'm aware of, nor any evidence to view this as anything more than the position of a deeply paranoid and untrustworthy hyperpartisan.

This is, "Government fundamentally cannot function this way." levels of thinking. Privilege isn't required for this, it's simply being a god-damned professional. Your job is to run the country, not abuse your position for petty partisan gain. I guess this kind of behavior has been normalized a lot more by Republicans than I'd thought.

Also, maybe your real issue is executive privilege in itself. You may not think the president's advisors should have confidentiality in their advice to him, in office or immediately after office.

I mean sure, but I'm not sure why there's concern the FBI would be leaking this unless you're on team #DefundTheFBI or something. Thus far the only complaints of their behavior largely rests on, "They executed a lawful search warranted signed off on by a judge, and a Trump-nominated judge at that. Following both a voluntary request for documents return as well as a subsequent subpoena for their return." which I'd argue is fairly suspect if you put literally anybody else as the subject of said raid in that circumstance.

Reportedly they've already reviewed it and I haven't seen any news about leaks. Almost as if they are professionals or something.

[Breccia]

I mean sure, but I'm not sure why there's concern the FBI would be leaking this unless you're on team #DefundTheFBI or something

Indeed, it's more projection. The only person worried about the FBI leaking top secret and SCI is the person who stole it himself.

[tehdang]

This is absolutely unhinged thinking

This is why such documents are protected by executive privilege as a concept. As a bulwark against rival administrations, or Congress, or ordinary litigants, compelling testimony that might make presidential advisors think twice about offering their real advice.

Your assertion that professionals wouldn't do such a thing is a cute concept, but not rooted in anything solid.

I mean sure, but I'm not sure why there's concern the FBI would be leaking this unless you're on team #DefundTheFBI or something. Thus far the only complaints of their behavior largely rests on, "They executed a lawful search warranted signed off on by a judge, and a Trump-nominated judge at that. Following both a voluntary request for documents return as well as a subsequent subpoena for their return." which I'd argue is fairly suspect if you put literally anybody else as the subject of said raid in that circumstance.

Reportedly they've already reviewed it and I haven't seen any news about leaks. Almost as if they are professionals or something.

That operation has published photos, has leaked to news organizations about what was sought and the classification levels involved, amongst a host of other issues. The executive should maintain some level of privacy in communications with his advisors from when he was president, and such documents should be preserved against any investigative team seizing troves of documents and reading them. When the DoJ somehow forgot the Nixon decision, and failed to identify and sequester potentially protected documents, they were begging a judge to put them back in their place.

It's like attorney-client privilege; sure, someone like you might see Sainted FBI Agents as being above using attorney-client communications to aid their prosecutions of attorney or client, or leak to the media to win the PR battle, but I prefer legal protections. I would've thought the examples of J Edgar Hoover and James Comey (office of the inspector general report on Comey leaking memos, and taking copies of classified documents) would've been enough of a history of misconduct in the DoJ.

I thought the roughshod manner they neglected exec privilege showed they had no desire to indict him. Why else jeopardize an investigation with materials subject to exclusion and contamination of the case? Neglect or no intent to actually charge. They're aware of supreme court precedent regarding both executive privilege and attorney client privilege. And oopsie.

[Jastall]

This is why such documents are protected by executive privilege as a concept. As a bulwark against rival administrations, or Congress, or ordinary litigants, compelling testimony that might make presidential advisors think twice about offering their real advice.

Your assertion that professionals wouldn't do such a thing is a cute concept, but not rooted in anything solid.

That operation has published photos, has leaked to news organizations about what was sought and the classification levels involved, amongst a host of other issues. The executive should maintain some level of privacy in communications with his advisors from when he was president, and such documents should be preserved against any investigative team seizing troves of documents and reading them. When the DoJ somehow forgot the Nixon decision, and failed to identify and sequester potentially protected documents, they were begging a judge to put them back in their place.

It's like attorney-client privilege; sure, someone like you might see Sainted FBI Agents as being above using attorney-client communications to aid their prosecutions of attorney or client, or leak to the media to win the PR battle, but I prefer legal protections. I would've thought the examples of J Edgar Hoover and James Comey (office of the inspector general report on Comey leaking memos, and taking copies of classified documents) would've been enough of a history of misconduct in the DoJ.

I thought the roughshod manner they neglected exec privilege showed they had no desire to indict him. Why else jeopardize an investigation with materials subject to exclusion and contamination of the case? Neglect or no intent to actually charge. They're aware of supreme court precedent regarding both executive privilege and attorney client privilege. And oopsie.

The items cannot be both covered by executive privilege and attorney client privilege at once, unless you believe the AG is the President's personal law counsellor for some reason. Leaving of course aside the fact that if it IS protected by executive privilege, it more than likely belongs to whoever holds the office, not everyone who once held the office.

[masterhorus8]

This is why such documents are protected by executive privilege as a concept. As a bulwark against rival administrations, or Congress, or ordinary litigants, compelling testimony that might make presidential advisors think twice about offering their real advice.

Your assertion that professionals wouldn't do such a thing is a cute concept, but not rooted in anything solid.

That operation has published photos, has leaked to news organizations about what was sought and the classification levels involved, amongst a host of other issues. The executive should maintain some level of privacy in communications with his advisors from when he was president, and such documents should be preserved against any investigative team seizing troves of documents and reading them. When the DoJ somehow forgot the Nixon decision, and failed to identify and sequester potentially protected documents, they were begging a judge to put them back in their place.

It's like attorney-client privilege; sure, someone like you might see Sainted FBI Agents as being above using attorney-client communications to aid their prosecutions of attorney or client, or leak to the media to win the PR battle, but I prefer legal protections. I would've thought the examples of J Edgar Hoover and James Comey (office of the inspector general report on Comey leaking memos, and taking copies of classified documents) would've been enough of a history of misconduct in the DoJ.

I thought the roughshod manner they neglected exec privilege showed they had no desire to indict him. Why else jeopardize an investigation with materials subject to exclusion and contamination of the case? Neglect or no intent to actually charge. They're aware of supreme court precedent regarding both executive privilege and attorney client privilege. And oopsie.

News flash: he isn't president. He lost. Get over it.

[Breccia]

The items cannot be both covered by executive privilege and attorney client privilege at once

This statement is objectively, factually correct.

Trump is most likely claiming privilege because he doesn't have any actual defense. Anything covered by Executive Privilege, Trump shouldn't have taken, and the FBI should have taken back. Anything covered by lawyer-client isn't evidence of any crimes and has already been separated out by the FBI who has no need of it.

[Draco-Onis]

News flash: he isn't president. He lost. Get over it.

I think that's the giant size hole in this whole executive privilege bullshit Trump is claiming, only the executive aka Biden the current president can use it. He cannot call executive privilege retroactively after being president.

[postman1782]

So Trump prevails on his claim for special master, and the government is punished for failing to screen for documents potentially protected by executive privilege, and mishaps in the filter review process ("at least two instances in which members of the Investigative Team were exposed to material ... designated as potentially privileged material"). I expected the citation of Nixon ever since the government made the absurd claim that nothing was potentially subject to executive privilege. She cites it here.

The DoJ better slow down and not overreach in future. Trump is entitled to make executive privilege claims, which isn't the same as eventually succeeding on those claims. The DoJ made unforced errors on passports and attorney-client privileged documents. Time to pay the piper on that one.

DoJ: Judge, we already screened this shit. We have 520 pages of potentially privileged material. This is unneccessary.
Judge: You already admitted to two times you screwed up, so don't tell me the process was adequate. We're interested in an impartial review of all that got swept up in the raid, not least of which is the public perception. And you dummies, you didn't follow court precedent on executive privilege, so there must be a second review for that reason as well.

https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.ne...asterOrder.pdf

It has already been ordered that he cannot claim executive privilege, he isn't the fucking president. This will be appealed and should be overturned.

[Endus]

Because, do you really want Republicans sifting through everything someone told Biden just because they took control of the White House (hence DoJ) and seized it in a raid?

Yes.

If they're doing so out of malice, they'll just make shit up anyway.

If there's an actual issue of misconduct, that should come out.

It shouldn't matter who's in the White House, or when.

The moment a President leaves office, there is no purpose for their having any form of "Executive Privilege" that cannot be countermanded trivially by the sitting President. They're no longer the head of the Executive. They no longer have that privilege, and the current President should have full access. It's absolutely fucking baffling that anyone would argue otherwise.

For people who supposedly hated kings, you sure did everything you could to make sure the President acted exactly like one, rather than just a normal democratic head of state.

[Dontrike]

The DoJ better slow down and not overreach in future.

Going after criminals is now "overreach." I learn something new and stupid everyday.

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This is why such documents are protected by executive privilege as a concept.

They're not protected from the government getting them the fuck back from the criminal that stole them. Again, why did Trump steal nuclear secrets? You never answered this.