Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

He cannot call executive privilege retroactively after being president.

And, just like that magical declassifying telepathy bullshit he tried earlier, simply saying "privilege" doesn't make it so during his tenure, either.

Of course, that's of limited context anyhow. Trump is trying to classify what kind of documents he stole. But he still stole them. Whether or not the FBI reads them doesn't really matter at this point.

[tehdang]

The items cannot be both covered by executive privilege and attorney client privilege at once, unless you believe the AG is the President's personal law counsellor for some reason. Leaving of course aside the fact that if it IS protected by executive privilege, it more than likely belongs to whoever holds the office, not everyone who once held the office.

For us both understanding each other, you know what the judge meant when she crossed from attorney-client privilege to executive privilege? When she said "the Court is notconvinced that similar concerns with respect to executive privilege should be disregarded in themanner suggested by the Government?"

News flash: he isn't president. He lost. Get over it.

It would be hard for any president to receive unfiltered advice if their advisers are subject to exposure the second the president leaves. This is an obvious abrogation of executive privilege as a concept.

It has already been ordered that he cannot claim executive privilege, he isn't the fucking president. This will be appealed and should be overturned.

No such order exists.

Going after criminals is now "overreach." I learn something new and stupid everyday.

DoJ running roughshod over separation of powers doctrine isn't new. Claiming this is identical to "going after criminals" is kinda new, I guess.

They're not protected from the government getting them the fuck back from the criminal that stole them. Again, why did Trump steal nuclear secrets? You never answered this.

The FBI has to observe the law when inspecting seized documents. Now, a special master will do the job they failed to do. I think you should save your energy for when these process contentions are over.

[Breccia]

The FBI has to observe the law when inspecting seized documents.

Funny story: they did. Remember, they were looking for things Trump stole from the WH. Their filter team already removed the rest. Executive Privileged documents don't belong to Trump, so even if the FBI said "hey, let's read every single word of every single page" it would not change the fact that Trump stole documents, and the FBI found them.

In other words, you keep admitting Trump is a criminal. We agree.

[Kaleredar]

For us both understanding each other, you know what the judge meant when she crossed from attorney-client privilege to executive privilege? When she said "the Court is notconvinced that similar concerns with respect to executive privilege should be disregarded in themanner suggested by the Government?"

It would be hard for any president to receive unfiltered advice if their advisers are subject to exposure the second the president leaves. This is an obvious abrogation of executive privilege as a concept.

No such order exists.

DoJ running roughshod over separation of powers doctrine isn't new. Claiming this is identical to "going after criminals" is kinda new, I guess.

The FBI has to observe the law when inspecting seized documents. Now, a special master will do the job they failed to do. I think you should save your energy for when these process contentions are over.

Your contention here seems to be that you assume that the contents of those folders included things that were basically "for Trump's eyes only" and that, because he was the executive at the time he saw them, he can still lay some sort of "executive privileged" to owning them, because Biden might "use them nefariously" or some partisan drek.

That's not how this works.


Here's a fucking news flash: The transition of Presidential power isn't supposed to be some "team sport victory" where you're not supposed to "see the other side's secrets for the next round." The office of the presidency is SUPPOSED to flow seamlessly between presidents. That Trump DIDN'T do that for Biden because Trump is a spiteful fuck does not mean that is the norm, and the transition of presidential power and the flow of who lays ownership to presidential documents is not going to suddenly be reinterpreted because Trump is a sore loser with paranoid supporters such as yourself.

Every president before Trump managed to do this flawlessly, and national security was not "compromised" because of it.

When Trump is uniquely the subject of all of these "unprecedented actions" taken against a former president, maybe it's because he's an unprecedentedly bad actor in the office of the presidency in all of these things, and not that some great conspiracy has come to weigh on uniquely him.

[Dontrike]

DoJ running roughshod over separation of powers doctrine isn't new. Claiming this is identical to "going after criminals" is kinda new, I guess.

For someone that claims to hate bias so much you sure do have a ton of it for Trump, almost like you're a hypocrite, especially if you believe he's not a criminal. Why would he steal classified and top secret documents again? You've never explained it.

The FBI has to observe the law when inspecting seized documents. Now, a special master will do the job they failed to do. I think you should save your energy for when these process contentions are over.

Yeah yeah, the FBI is only bad when it goes after your Trumpy bear. Shouldn't you be using Truth Social right now? At least there everyone believes the lies you spew.

[Breccia]

That's not how this works.

Indeed.

While even our resident Trump supporters admit he's a criminal (not that they have a choice, but it's still kind of them to reflect reality) I keep wondering...what, exactly, was Trump trying to do by claims of privilege?

How Executive Privilege works is hardly a secret anymore, but there's really no option that helps Trump here.

1) We've all been over plenty of times, Trump has a real problem asserting privilege while not in the White House. Worse, for him at least, Trump appointed Kavanaugh to SCOTUS, but Kavanaugh has personally argued that the public should have a very hard time reading former President Bush's records. Mar-a-Lago's staff is "the public". Kavanaugh is likely going to take a dim view on Trump stealing WH documents and keeping them in a hotel basement.

2) There is no angle anyone could possibly use to claim Biden can't read Trump's documents. You know what would stop that? Trump stealing them and lying about it.

3) Also, if you read literally everything written on former Presidents' privilege, you'd notice there's a crime exception. Biden can waive a former President's privilege, if it interferes with his duty leading the Executive Branch. For example, if privilege is stopping the DoJ from seeing evidence of a crime. Thanks, Nixon!

4) Also, Trump has now said in public he was taking the items for his library. Normally NARA does that, so taking them is counterproductive. Trump might have meant his own private Trump library, but, um, why would he claim privilege on items he was going to put in public? Trump's defenses are contrary to each other.

5) Also, Trump claims he declassified them. I'm at a loss to explain how something is declassified and yet privileged.

6) As I've also mentioned, Trump removed a bunch of files from their folders and, best case scenario, the FBI found them anyhow. If you take documents out of their protective folder that says "Don't read the contents" you can't expect the FBI to respect those instructions, because you removed those instructions.

7) And the big one, of course, is still that items covered by privilege are still not the property of private civilian Donald Trump. Even if the FBI read them, which again would be completely understandable because Trump more or less put them out in public, that doesn't change the fact that their very presence in his house is the crime.

Hey @cubby if I stole your briefcase filled with your clients' files, and you called the police on me, could I tell the cops with the warrant at my house "Wait, you can't take those files, because they're privileged"?

[postman1782]

No such order exists.

The fuck it doesn't. https://www.lawfareblog.com/trump-lo...tive-privilege

This is even about the National Archives as well. This was the Supreme Court saying the former president, does not have executive privilege. Only the current president can claim executive privilege.

[Flarelaine]

The fuck it doesn't. https://www.lawfareblog.com/trump-lo...tive-privilege

This is even about the National Archives as well. This was the Supreme Court saying the former president, does not have executive privilege. Only the current president can claim executive privilege.

The catch here is that Trumpsters believe Trump is the current president.

[P for Pancetta]

Any other person would've been long on death-row for the crimes committed. This whole process is a joke.

[tehdang]

Funny story: they did. Remember, they were looking for things Trump stole from the WH. Their filter team already removed the rest. Executive Privileged documents don't belong to Trump, so even if the FBI said "hey, let's read every single word of every single page" it would not change the fact that Trump stole documents, and the FBI found them.

The filter team failed to remove documents potentially protected by executive privilege in clear contradiction of past supreme court precedent. They invented a novel legal theory as to why they didn't need to. That one crashed and burned.

In other words, you keep admitting Trump is a criminal. We agree.

You'll have to update your understanding of 'reserving judgement' one of these days.

Your contention here seems to be that you assume that the contents of those folders included

Stopping you right here. I make no assumptions. I speak of what has been introduced at court and examined by judges. The DoJ was negligent in its filter team. This negligence invited the appointment of a special master and temporary pause in its investigation.

The DoJ may have legal theories of criminality that they wish to advance. We shall see those when they're required to prove it at court. Not with these incessant media leaks and rumors.

For someone that claims to hate bias so much you sure do have a ton of it for Trump, almost like you're a hypocrite, especially if you believe he's not a criminal. Why would he steal classified and top secret documents again? You've never explained it.

Yes yes we all must pronounce citizens guilty prior to indictment on charges. I love the new era of partisanship.

Yeah yeah, the FBI is only bad when it goes after your Trumpy bear. Shouldn't you be using Truth Social right now? At least there everyone believes the lies you spew.

I know the judge's order was inconvenient, but really you should start getting on board with "I think he's guilty, I think you should think he's guilty at this moment in time, but what you say has grounding in the facts of the case."

It would, you know, avoid having to call judges ruling on process (not criminality, mind you) partisan or hacks or all that stuff. The more you have to call court decisions and supreme court rulings "lies," the less people will believe you have good insight into what's going on.

The fuck it doesn't. https://www.lawfareblog.com/trump-lo...tive-privilege

This is even about the National Archives as well. This was the Supreme Court saying the former president, does not have executive privilege. Only the current president can claim executive privilege.

Uhh, wrong.

Here's a reminder. Trump failed in his exertion of executive privilege in that case because the privileged communication at issue was the narrow subject of a special congressional committee pursuant to its lawful exercise of power. Secondly, and importantly, Trump asserted his executive privilege, and no action was possible on the covered documents until it had been denied by the high court. Bad instructions to filter teams denies him that right in the current case.

But as long as we're in the argument-by-links phase, here's one.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/...be-into-chaos/

The Justice Department has not yet commented as of this writing, but it seems certain that prosecutors will seek a reversal of Cannon’s order from the Eleventh Circuit — specifically, to the extent the district judge (a) concluded that Trump, as a former president, may retain an executive privilege of confidentiality that can be successfully asserted against the executive branch of the incumbent president and (b) suspended the ongoing criminal investigation until a special master can be appointed and has a meaningful opportunity to review the apparently thousands of documents seized.

When a salient point of law is unclear, the responsible course for prosecutors is to flag the issue for the court and get a ruling before taking controversial actions. Instead, in seeking the search warrant, DOJ advised Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart that the filtering process that would be implemented in connection with documents seized in the search would screen only for attorney-client privileged documents, not executive privileged documents. The latter category is apt to be considerably more expansive. It does not appear that DOJ alerted Reinhart to the possibility that Trump could have a colorable executive-privilege claim, and there’s no indication that Reinhart raised the question on his own.

Gee whillickers, you may get one, or even two, court rulings on exactly this point of contention. All you have to do is hold your horses a tiny bit. And, maybe, avoid dismissing such matters outright, since they're the subject of court decisions and likely appeals. You could even avoid calling judges dumb by implication, in their court orders that don't dismiss possible executive privilege claims outright.

The catch here is that Trumpsters believe Trump is the current president.

I've been saying this is about executive privilege claims by the former president from the outset. Maybe this is one voice against calling me a Trumpster? Nah, I bet it'll get reduced to "some Trumpsters" or "most Trumpsters."

[Breccia]

The filter team failed--

You do not know what the filter team removed. Your entire post is premised with outright guesswork, with no facts to back it up. SCOTUS has never ruled on a case like this -- there has never been a case like this. So, that part is an outright lie on your part.

But thanks once again for admitting Trump stole government property, which is a crime. Honestly, you don't need to keep doing that. The first time was enough.

- - - Updated - - -

It occurs to me that some of the defenses we're seeing from Trump and the rabid fanbase are so, well, outlandish, because they're looking at the wrong crime. The FBI executed a search warrant because NARA asked them to get back the material Trump stole. They were not looking for the Jan 6th committee. Maybe privilege will help there, maybe it won't, but that's not the issue right now.

The issue right now is, Trump stole government property (including SCI) that he's not allowed to have. Whether or not it's privileged doesn't change that part. Trump's supporters are defending him against the next crime, because they know they're going to need to.

There is no defense against this current crime. The FBI left Mar-a-Lago with government property Trump stole. Trump's flailing defenses include "the FBI planted stuff on me for my library" none of which makes sense, but the Executive Privilege bit is only relevant for his role in other crimes -- such as leading a murderous insurrection.

[Gorsameth]

They ran out of ways to defend Trump actually having the documents so they are running to find anything else to use as a distraction.
I don't even get why the filter team looking at documents under potential Executive Privilege is relevant unless Trump supporters expect some of the stuff the FBI took to be used in other cases running against Trump.

The contents of the documents is not relevant to the current FBI action, Trump having them at all is what matters. The filter team only needed to separate official government files, regardless of their content, from Trumps personal effects.

[Endus]

Yes yes we all must pronounce citizens guilty prior to indictment on charges. I love the new era of partisanship.

The premise of being held innocent until proven guilty in a court of law is a principle that only ever applies to actual court proceedings. It mandates you get a trial to convict, before you're sentenced. That's it. That's all it means.

It doesn't mean a suspect can't be arrested and held in a jail cell until trial.

It doesn't mean a suspect's property can't be searched for evidence of a crime.

It doesn't mean no investigation of that suspect and their compatriots can be done.

It doesn't mean anyone outside the courts themselves can't form an opinion as to their culpability, and express that opinion publicly; it necessarily falls short of defamation because the very fact of an investigation into such demonstrates that there's justifiable reason to believe they might have done the thing. If it's enough for authorities to investigate, it's more than enough for private citizens to express opinions.

[Draco-Onis]

It would be hard for any president to receive unfiltered advice if their advisers are subject to exposure the second the president leaves. This is an obvious abrogation of executive privilege as a concept.

ROFLMAO he isn't president any advisor he has doesn't matter, he doesn't have privilege anymore and his advisors are not with the current president. You right winger sure do love crime and hate the police how ironic.

No such order exists.

The supreme court has said so and Joe Biden you know the current president who gets to decide executive privilege have already said so.

- - - Updated - - -

They ran out of ways to defend Trump actually having the documents so they are running to find anything else to use as a distraction.
I don't even get why the filter team looking at documents under potential Executive Privilege is relevant unless Trump supporters expect some of the stuff the FBI took to be used in other cases running against Trump.

The contents of the documents is not relevant to the current FBI action, Trump having them at all is what matters. The filter team only needed to separate official government files, regardless of their content, from Trumps personal effects.

I think Lindsey Graham said the position of reich wingers perfectly Trump in and out of office is above the law in their opinion.

[Gorsameth]

"Laws for you, not for me" is a core tenant of the GOP

[Breccia]

They ran out of ways to defend Trump actually having the documents so they are running to find anything else to use as a distraction.

To give Trump what little credit he's due, if a document really is Executive Privilege, because it refers to him setting or following WH policy, it should not be part of the Jan 6th investigation.

Problem for Trump is, his re-election is not WH business. Like, end of story, point over. How states vote is out of his tiny hands. How the House/Senate votes is out of his tiny hands. Those discussions, and any discussions about how to change those (*cough* starting a lynch mob *cough*) are not privileged for the Jan 6th committee.

Of course, the subpoena that Trump violated that led to this FBI raid isn't that. NARA found out Trump stole stuff and he refused to give it back, leading to an entirely different set of broken laws, that not even the rabid fanbase can counter. Trump is just objectively guilty, especially if the documents are Executive Privileged.

[bladeXcrasher]

This is "I can shoot someone on the street and my supporters wouldn't care"...minus the shooting in the street.

[Breccia]

Well, enough about even Trump supporters admitting Trump is guilty of crimes. Let's talk about, I dunno, DWAC? Let's just check the stock price and HOLY FAT ORANGE FUCK it dropped 17% almost instantly.

What happened? It was a holiday weekend, nothing happens on holiday weekends!

Well..something did, apparently. The most reasonable story is that DWAC's vote to extend the deadline happened and failed. The deadline to purchase is still Sept 8, but there may be some legalese mumbo jumbo I can't predict that gets in the way.

DWAC's initial stocks sold for $10, and are currently $20.

"That's good!"

But remember, the price almost instantly spiked to over $100 and was over $25 all the way up until last week. Literally anyone who wasn't in on the ground floor lost money on this deal.

"That's bad."

Plus, the SEC investigation will not end just because they called the merger off.

"That's go...wait, are we not doing the Simpsons yoghurt thing?"

And also, if/when the merger fails, Trump doesn't get that billion in cash (well, his share of it...wait, is he on the board or not?) he would have used to keep himself above water paying loans. He also remains pretty much the sole owner of a knock-off Chinese Twitter account with fewer fans than an Ohio sports franchise.

There is a special shareholder meeting in an hour, apparently. I expect we'll see the answers soon. DWAC has no reason to drop below $10, should they liquidate, they have to pay back the initial investment...and eat any other operational losses.

Doing business with Donald Trump has proven, time and again, to be a good way to lose money. The people buying into DWAC knew what they were doing. I have no sympathy, no empathy, no sadface for them.

CyberTrump 2077 lost, get over it.

[Edge-]

The filter team failed to remove documents potentially protected by executive privilege in clear contradiction of past supreme court precedent.

I do not believe the precedent was set with the potential documents being evidence of crimes. That's the rub here, most other instances where issues of privilege have come up weren't directly related to federal criminal investigations.

- - - Updated - - -

This is "I can shoot someone on the street and my supporters wouldn't care"...minus the shooting in the street.

This test already happened when Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face "accidentally" while on a hunting trip. Even the guy he shot in the face still supported him.

- - - Updated - - -

CyberTrump 2077 lost, get over it.

Just catching up on this news now.

I missed this from Trump though -



So like...cool? He's rich so...take the company private? Why do so via mergers and investor backing when he could have just done it himself?

I feel like once upon a time we were worried about Trump leaving the White House to start a media empire. And that those concerns, while potentially valid given his mastery of the manipulation of media, were unfounded for one key reason. Trump is unable to actually start or run successful companies that can't extensively use shady tactics and engage in things like overvaluing property for loan purposes and then undervaluing it for tax purposes.

IN OTHER NEWS: https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/06/polit...gia/index.html

Oh look, more Trump folks engaged in wrongdoing related to voting.

A Republican official in GA escorted two Trump operatives into a election office...and in a coincidence on that same day the voting system there was breached.

Just a total coincidence.

And as a reminder: Republicans are guilty of literally everything they continue to accuse Democrats of.

[Breccia]

Why do so via mergers and investor backing when he could have just done it himself?

Come on, we both know the answer to that.

Trump is lying.