Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

By the way, it was mentioned, but I thought I'd cite, Barr says the ruling was incorrect.

The op--

Oh, he said it on FOX News.

The opinion, I think, was wrong, and I think the government should appeal it.

It's deeply flawed in a number of ways. I don't think the appointment of a special master is going to hold up, but even if it does, I don't see it fundamentally changing the trajectory.

I think the fundamental dynamics of the case are set. The government has very strong evidence of what it really needs to determine whether charges are appropriate.

I mean, at this point, between that and what @cubby just asked, Trump's DOJ is more interested in Trump being a criminal than Clinton being a criminal.

[Jastall]

They can assert the privilege and have it tried in court. The DoJ ... well, they tried to theorize such an assertation wasn't possible. Their loss.

Appeals exist, and this is also a reminder you still haven't sourced your own claim so far despite both me and others pressing you so I'll assume you're just inventing such a tradition to fit your argument now.

Besides, the idea that the FBI shouldn't have grabbed anything in case executive privilege applied is patently absurd. They had a mandate, they grab everything that remotely looks like it could fit the mandate, then filter out as they go afterwards, that's how it works in such a case. IF the privilege applies (big if as of now), they'd still have to grab the stuff and look at it, same for attorney-client privilege (albeit such documents would be of less interest to the FBI as a matter of course in this case).

[cubby]

They can assert the privilege and have it tried in court. The DoJ ... well, they tried to theorize such an assertation wasn't possible. Their loss.

In terms of the depth of executive privilege jurisprudence, yes. In terms of your specific citation, it's a very small addition.

Assertion of executive privilege isn't so simple, come on now.

Rule is that past executive cannot be so simply dismissed as having genuine claims of executive privilege. The current judge trying the dispute said as much. I suggest you read the order.

You can't Executive Privilege this issue away, regardless of past rulings. Trump was caught - that's a legal term for seen by LEO's violating a law - with classified documents in his possession as a private citizen - including some nuclear documents that CANNOT be declassified, regardless of Presidential order.

The rest of your arguments are just bluster. This is how Trump will be going to jail. The only issue Garland faces right now is how violent a reaction you and your ilk will have when the law is upheld.

[postman1782]

I read and responded to you. You said a Supreme Court case said the former president does not have executive privilege. I corrected you, from the case you cited. So as much as your ideology demands certain people "[suck] Trump's cock as much as he can," I suggest you stick to the record. Unless you wish to submit video evidence of the cock-sucking you're so enthusiastic about.

Then you didn't fucking understand it then. And I was right, the former president DOESN'T HAVE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. Only the current president does.

[cubby]

By the way, it was mentioned, but I thought I'd cite, Barr says the ruling was incorrect.

Oh, he said it on FOX News.

The opinion, I think, was wrong, and I think the government should appeal it.

It's deeply flawed in a number of ways. I don't think the appointment of a special master is going to hold up, but even if it does, I don't see it fundamentally changing the trajectory.

I think the fundamental dynamics of the case are set. The government has very strong evidence of what it really needs to determine whether charges are appropriate.

I mean, at this point, between that and what @cubby just asked, Trump's DOJ is more interested in Trump being a criminal than Clinton being a criminal.

If it's possible for Trump to go to jail, this is how it will happen. As you pointed out, even the GoP is ready to be rid of him - at least the sane portions of the GoP.

What worries me is that there will be no remittance for the horror and shame that Trump has wrought on the United States. AND, there are still millions that will not face reality, and believe him to not only be not guilty, but the legitimate 2020 winner.

[Breccia]

Besides, the idea that the FBI shouldn't have grabbed anything in case executive privilege applied is patently absurd.

Indeed. Trump supporters keep bringinging up Executive Privilege because they're thinking about the next crime Trump will be charged with. Trump, to use a recently-revealed legal term, was "caught".

[cubby]

Then you didn't fucking understand it then. And I was right, the former president DOESN'T HAVE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. Only the current president does.

He might understand, but his goal is obfuscation, either by design or ignorance, through the repetition of talking points fed to him by the people who would rather see the country burn than succeed via another political party's policy goals.

[Edge-]

https://archive.ph/zMQv6

A document describing a foreign government’s military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities, was found by FBI agents who searched former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence and private club last month, according to people familiar with the matter, underscoring concerns among U.S. intelligence officials about classified material stashed in the Florida property.

Some of the seized documents detail top-secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them. Only the president, some members of his Cabinet or a near-Cabinet level official could authorize other government officials to know details of these special access programs, according to people familiar with the search, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive details of an ongoing investigation.

Documents about such highly classified operations require special clearances on a need-to-know basis, not just top-secret clearance. Some special-access programs can have as few as a couple dozen government personnel authorized to know of an operation’s existence. Records that deal with such programs are kept under lock and key, almost always in a secure compartmented information facility, with a designated control officer to keep careful tabs on their location.

But such documents were stored at Mar-a-Lago, with uncertain security, more than 18 months after Trump left the White House.

If this is true this continues to place insane pressure on Trump for his intentional mishandling of some of the nations biggest secrets. And those of our allies.

[Breccia]

If this is true

I kinda hope not.

But hey, you and @cubby and @postman1782 would any of you call the US's military capabilies "Executive Privilege"? Because I don't think it qualifies.

[cubby]

Indeed. Trump supporters keep bringinging up Executive Privilege because they're thinking about the next crime Trump will be charged with. Trump, to use a recently-revealed legal term, was "caught".

They also keep bringing it up because it's a talking point being pushed by the GQP propaganda machine. Those talking points change as Trump's story changes. We'll see 'dang' now, and have in the past, change his argument based on the story Trump and his criminal ilk have pushed out.

There was an interesting quote from one of the books Woodward wrote about Trump. At one point during the ongoing scandals of Trump's Residency, he said "[we should put out a story about Ivanka, that should pull the focus away]". Because that's how he's lived his entire life, breaking the law, and then covering it up with more scandals.

It is, as always, horrifying.

- - - Updated - - -

https://archive.ph/zMQv6

A document describing a foreign government’s military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities, was found by FBI agents who searched former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence and private club last month, according to people familiar with the matter, underscoring concerns among U.S. intelligence officials about classified material stashed in the Florida property.

Some of the seized documents detail top-secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them. Only the president, some members of his Cabinet or a near-Cabinet level official could authorize other government officials to know details of these special access programs, according to people familiar with the search, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive details of an ongoing investigation.

Documents about such highly classified operations require special clearances on a need-to-know basis, not just top-secret clearance. Some special-access programs can have as few as a couple dozen government personnel authorized to know of an operation’s existence. Records that deal with such programs are kept under lock and key, almost always in a secure compartmented information facility, with a designated control officer to keep careful tabs on their location.

But such documents were stored at Mar-a-Lago, with uncertain security, more than 18 months after Trump left the White House.

If this is true this continues to place insane pressure on Trump for his intentional mishandling of some of the nations biggest secrets. And those of our allies.

Anyone else would already be arrested and held without bail, facing Espionage charges. Again, horrifying.

[Edge-]

would any of you call the US's military capabilies "Executive Privilege"? Because I don't think it qualifies.

I'm pretty sure Trump didn't bring back reports from Peter Navarro for some light reading, nor does the FBI care in the slightest about communications between the POTUS and their cabinet here. That's not what they're looking for, and that's very likely not what Trump brought back with him.

But hey, it's a talking point! It's just about the only possible talking point that Republicans have left, so you're going to need to pry it from their cold, dead hands.

[cubby]

I kinda hope not.

But hey, you and @cubby and @postman1782 would any of you call the US's military capabilies "Executive Privilege"? Because I don't think it qualifies.

Not only are they not covered by Executive Privilege, many of those documents cannot be declassified, even by the President. By law.

Executive Privilege is just the current smoke screen Trumpeteers are using in an intentionally obtuse effort to cover for the felonious dipshit.

[Breccia]

This is a good summary piece about the "special master" issue. Some of it is in the "I called it" camp: namely, that the judge doesn't seem all that convinced it'll help Trump; that there might not be a carbon-based life form Trump and Biden's DOJ agree on to check; and that the real issue with privilege is the FBI's filter team, looking through what Trump stole, finding Trump talking to his team about overthrowing the government. Even if conspiring to commit treason was, somehow, still privileged, Biden himself is still allowed to read it, and there is a crime exception. I cited that myself. And it wouldn't change the fact that Trump isn't allowed to keep the documents he stole.

If, as many suspect, Trump just randomly grabbed a bunch of things with his name on it to play Pretty Princess Dress Up, that doesn't make Trump innocent of inciting a murderous insurrection, just that the evidence wasn't in his basement. Evidence of his theft, was.

- - - Updated - - -

nor does the FBI care in the slightest about communications between the POTUS and their cabinet here

Well, see above, they might. If a police officer is executing a warrant for a bunch of cocaine and there's a gun sitting on the table in plain sight, that gun is now evidence too. The question may have to wait until later. But you're right -- the Executive Privilege issue doesn't apply to the FBI taking back what Trump stole.

[postman1782]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ear-documents/
@Breccia, I don't have a source besides this one, but with the Post being one of the most accurate sources in the world, everyone was right, he did have classified nuclear documents. I don't know how they got this info, but wow. I can't post the article, because paywall.

- - - Updated - - -

He might understand, but his goal is obfuscation, either by design or ignorance, through the repetition of talking points fed to him by the people who would rather see the country burn than succeed via another political party's policy goals.

Jesus fucking christ, he literally didn't read the opinion of the scotus, but claims he did.

- - - Updated - - -

I kinda hope not.

But hey, you and @cubby and @postman1782 would any of you call the US's military capabilies "Executive Privilege"? Because I don't think it qualifies.

Nope, that is literally shit that is so classified that anyone else, they would have been tried, convicted, and probably executed for it.

[cubby]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ear-documents/
@Breccia, I don't have a source besides this one, but with the Post being one of the most accurate sources in the world, everyone was right, he did have classified nuclear documents. I don't know how they got this info, but wow. I can't post the article, because paywall.

If true (and I agree with you re the Post's veracity) then Garland will probably focus his criminal indictment on these specific documents and legal violations. The case should be as clear and transparent as possible.
1) is having these documents in a private person's possession illegal?
2) did Donnie have them in his possession?
Done and done.

How they find an "impartial" jury is beyond me - even the measure used for Mob family prosecutions probably won't work.

Jesus fucking christ, he literally didn't read the opinion of the scotus, but claims he did.

Or, he did, and is purposefully being obtuse - to muddy the waters and push the lies and conspiracies that are central to the Trumpateers wellbeing.

[Breccia]

I can't post the article, because paywall.

Posting the entire thing, because paywall.

A document describing a foreign government’s military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities, was found by FBI agents who searched former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence and private club last month, according to people familiar with the matter, underscoring concerns among U.S. intelligence officials about classified material stashed in the Florida property.

Some of the seized documents detail top-secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them. Only the president, some members of his Cabinet or a near-Cabinet-level official could authorize other government officials to know details of these special-access programs, according to people familiar with the search, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive details of an ongoing investigation.

Documents about such highly classified operations require special clearances on a need-to-know basis, not just top-secret clearance. Some special-access programs can have as few as a couple dozen government personnel authorized to know of an operation’s existence. Records that deal with such programs are kept under lock and key, almost always in a secure compartmented information facility, with a designated control officer to keep careful tabs on their location.

But such documents were stored at Mar-a-Lago, with uncertain security, more than 18 months after Trump left the White House.

After months of trying, according to government court filings, the FBI has recovered more than 300 classified documents from Mar-a-Lago this year: 184 in a set of 15 boxes sent to the National Archives and Records Administration in January, 38 more handed over by a Trump lawyer to investigators in June, and more than 100 additional documents unearthed in a court-approved search on Aug. 8.

It was in this last batch of government secrets, the people familiar with the matter said, that the information about a foreign government’s nuclear-defense readiness was found. These people did not identify the foreign government in question, say where at Mar-a-Lago the document was found or offer additional details about one of the Justice Department’s most sensitive national security investigations.

The Washington Post previously reported that FBI agents who searched Trump’s home were looking, in part, for any classified documents relating to nuclear weapons. After that story published, Trump compared it on social media to a host of previous government investigations into his conduct. “Nuclear weapons issue is a Hoax, just like Russia, Russia, Russia was a Hoax, two Impeachments were a Hoax, the Mueller investigation was a Hoax, and much more. Same sleazy people involved,” he wrote, going on to suggest that FBI agents might have planted evidence against him.

A grand jury subpoena issued May 11 demanded the return of “all documents or writings in the custody or control of Donald J. Trump and/or the Office of Donald J. Trump bearing classification markings,” including “Top Secret,” and the lesser categories of “Secret” and “Confidential.”

The subpoena, issued to Trump’s custodian of records, then listed more than two dozen sub-classifications of documents, including “S/FRD,” an acronym for “Formerly Restricted Data,” which is reserved for information that relates primarily to the military use of nuclear weapons. Despite the “formerly” in the title, the term does not mean the information is no longer classified.

One person familiar with the Mar-a-Lago search said the goal of the comprehensive list was to ensure recovery of all classified records on the property, and not just those that investigators had reason to believe might be there.

Investigators grew alarmed, according to one person familiar with the search, as they began to review documents retrieved from the club’s storage closet, Trump’s residence and his office in August. The team soon came upon records that are extremely restricted, so much so that even some of the senior-most national security officials in the Biden administration weren’t authorized to review them. One government filing alluded to this information when it noted that counterintelligence FBI agents and prosecutors investigating the Mar-a-Lago documents were not authorized at first to review some of the material seized.

Among the 100-plus classified documents taken in August, some were marked “HCS,” a category of highly classified government information that refers to “HUMINT Control Systems,” which are systems used to protect intelligence gathered from secret human sources, according to a court filing. A partially unsealed affidavit said documents found in the boxes that were sent to the National Archives in January related to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. There was also material that was never meant to be shared with foreign nations

Okay it looks like the rest is stuff we already knew.

Bolded for emphasis.

Bolded and orange for a complete dismantling of the "Executive Privilege" defense. The FBI saw what they took and said "Holy shit, we shouldn't be allowed to breathe the same air as these files" and called in help immediately. It wasn't about Trump's lawyer, his medical records, or his passports.

[Edge-]

I can't post the article, because paywall.

https://archive.ph/zMQv6

Archive site is great for circumventing a lot of the paywalls. Someone already had this archived when I plugged it in. Doesn't work for every site, but it's pretty effective.

[postman1782]

Archive site is great for circumventing a lot of the paywalls. Someone already had this archived when I plugged it in. Doesn't work for every site, but it's pretty effective.

I will have to keep that in mind.

[Endus]

Posting the entire thing, because paywall.

Okay it looks like the rest is stuff we already knew.

Bolded for emphasis.

Bolded and orange for a complete dismantling of the "Executive Privilege" defense. The FBI saw what they took and said "Holy shit, we shouldn't be allowed to breathe the same air as these files" and called in help immediately. It wasn't about Trump's lawyer, his medical records, or his passports.

Uhhhh, information on a foreign power's military capabilities, including nuclear info?

1> Which nation, I wonder? Dollars to donuts it's probably Israel, given everything.
2> Can we turn him over to said nation for prosecution? I'm sure he'll fuckin' love their prisons and the complete lack of any possible political clout there.

[fwc577]

1> Which nation, I wonder? Dollars to donuts it's probably Israel, given everything.

So, are you saying that Trump possibly stole secrets regarding Israel's nuclear capabilities, which he likely sold/traded to Russia for something (maybe for handing over Kompromat or for a fat paycheck somewhere) and then Russia maybe sold that information to Iran who, in exchange, are now supplying Russia with drones?

Because if you're not saying it, then I'm saying that's my theory.