1. #80481
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Yes yes we all must pronounce citizens guilty prior to indictment on charges. I love the new era of partisanship.
    For someone that hates bias you sure do have a fuck ton of it for Trump, especially when you ignore countless evidence. You may want to go to your eye doctor if you're having trouble seeing it.

    I know the judge's order was inconvenient, but really you should start getting on board with "I think he's guilty, I think you should think he's guilty at this moment in time, but what you say has grounding in the facts of the case."
    I think you should get on board with Trump having dozens upon dozens of classified documents for months and months, even had his lawyer lie about giving them all back, kept them for even longer and suddenly many of those documents have gone missing.

    There's no other way to look at it. Maybe there would be if you red hats could come up with an actual reason Trump had those documents for so long that you and your orange messiah didn't change 50 minutes later because excuse #45 didn't get it done.

    It would, you know, avoid having to call judges ruling on process (not criminality, mind you) partisan or hacks or all that stuff. The more you have to call court decisions and supreme court rulings "lies," the less people will believe you have good insight into what's going on.
    I didn't know you were part of the Supreme Court, but I do know that you have no idea about anything that happened.

    You're literally this guy. Willing to ignore everything, believing Trump is innocent, just because you hitched your dumb ass wagon to an even more stupid horse.
    Last edited by Dontrike; 2022-09-07 at 03:37 AM.

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  2. #80482
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    This OP ED is by a former federal prosecutor who lays out the case that Trump's lawyers just flat-out failed.

    I'll summarize, you can read the whole thing on your own, but a lot of it is what we knew.
    1) Trump doesn't listen. Yeah, you knew that'd be on the list. Trump didn't just ignore his lawyers however, he also ignored NARA -- which Presidents don't do, hence, why they don't get their house tossed.
    2) This should have been cut off far earlier. NARA can't make arrests. They had to refer to the DoJ because Team Trump wasn't cooperating. No good lawyer would have let it get that far.
    3) Why would anyone hand over some, but not all, of the stolen documents? That's just dumb!
    4) There's something called an "act of production" that could have been used here. Basically, if you have something illegally, handing it to the cops is basically a confession. But you can ask for an immunity deal to hand it over in exchange for not being arrested for handing it over. Trump didn't do that.
    5) Once it was passed from NARA to the FBI, Team Trump should have grovelled for mercy, because that subpoena was an indication they meant business. Oddly enough, the FBI did Team Trump a solid by saying "look, just give it all back and we'll call it even" and that's when Bobb said they had, and she was wrong. Either she lied or was misled, and hiding government records from the FBI is a crime.
    5a) Oh, and if Bobb is charged, she can't represent Trump anymore. This would be easy to do if she knows Trump lied to her.
    6) Also, you should never tell the FBI "we gave you everything, and don't look in the storage room".
    7) Trump should have gotten a third party to do the search. If someone with clearance, and a lawyer, was given free reign of Mar-a-Lago and collected everything they found, it wouldn't be on Trump if they missed something.
    8) And finally, Trump making fifty different contradictory excuses in public isn't helping anyone. The FBI has already responded to public pressure twice, both times it backfired horribly for Trump. Seconds after calling the missing records as trivial as overdue library books, we find it's hundreds of pages of government secrets that we now believe contains nuclear info.

    Trump has bought his way out of trouble by throwing large numbers of lawyers at weak, terrified, unpaid employees. Their skill level wasn't a factor. It is now. Trump should be ready to take that phone call from Biden where he's told "You have one chance for me to hold the FBI back until 2025, and that's for you to leave politics". Which I still think is a solid option.

  3. #80483
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Trump has bought his way out of trouble by throwing large numbers of lawyers at weak, terrified, unpaid employees. Their skill level wasn't a factor. It is now. Trump should be ready to take that phone call from Biden where he's told "You have one chance for me to hold the FBI back until 2025, and that's for you to leave politics". Which I still think is a solid option.
    The first and only remark Biden had on the matter is that he has nothing to do with it. He's going to let Trump hang himself with his own idiocy, and never look back.

  4. #80484
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    WaPo reports that Steve Bannon is prepared to surrender to NYState.

    So, remember We Build The Wall (not Trump, by the way, the one who promised to build the Wall) that Bannon was involved in and was a huge scam? Trump pardoned him for it. The federal investigation, therefore, hit a snag.

    NYState, of course, doesn't have that problem. Turns out they got his bank records. Bannon took $1 million of what he told NY donors was going to the Wall, then kept it.

    Oh, and this is the funny part: Trump pardoned Bannon. Trump did not pardon Bannon's co-conspirators.

    "Surely these brave patriots were acquitted of all charges!"

    They plead guilty. Thanks, FOX News! You'll notice they plead out in April, so, they've had time to have a nice, quiet chat with their lawyers and state/federal prosecutors about their friend Bannon who someone escaped unscathed while they all got...uh...

    (checks news)

    Hmm. They haven't been sentenced yet, but they seem to be looking at 5 years, down from 46. So, yeah, I think they're going to turn on Bannon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    The first and only remark Biden had on the matter is that he has nothing to do with it. He's going to let Trump hang himself with his own idiocy, and never look back.
    In public, yes. I still believe Biden could make a backroom deal with Trump. No charges in exchange for silence.

    But...I admit, as we see more and more evidence pile up, I'm less and less sure that'll happen. The DOJ, without hands-on by Biden, seem to have an airtight case. Trump had the documents, that's not even disputed by Trump. There's no reasonable defense shown yet that would allow Trump to take them without anyone knowing about it, and then keeping them afterwards. And no, the FBI didn't plant them -- Trump said so himself, he said he wanted them for his library and declassified them.

  5. #80485
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Archive site is great for circumventing a lot of the paywalls. Someone already had this archived when I plugged it in. Doesn't work for every site, but it's pretty effective.
    https://12ft.io/ Apparently this also works for getting around paywalls. Just slap the link in the website, and it gets around most of them.

  6. #80486
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    WaPo reports that Steve Bannon is prepared to surrender to NYState.

    So, remember We Build The Wall (not Trump, by the way, the one who promised to build the Wall) that Bannon was involved in and was a huge scam? Trump pardoned him for it. The federal investigation, therefore, hit a snag.

    NYState, of course, doesn't have that problem. Turns out they got his bank records. Bannon took $1 million of what he told NY donors was going to the Wall, then kept it.

    Oh, and this is the funny part: Trump pardoned Bannon. Trump did not pardon Bannon's co-conspirators.

    "Surely these brave patriots were acquitted of all charges!"

    They plead guilty. Thanks, FOX News! You'll notice they plead out in April, so, they've had time to have a nice, quiet chat with their lawyers and state/federal prosecutors about their friend Bannon who someone escaped unscathed while they all got...uh...

    (checks news)

    Hmm. They haven't been sentenced yet, but they seem to be looking at 5 years, down from 46. So, yeah, I think they're going to turn on Bannon.
    Bannon was indicted, but hadn't been prosecuted before he was pardoned so double jeopardy wouldn't apply right? I do recall you guys getting rid of that over in NY.
    And accepting the pardon would leads to him accepting guilt for the crime right? Also since he accepted guilt, and the pardon, he can't plead the fifth, right? If anything I suspect a good amount of the pardon aspect can be used against him. Sorry for all the questions but oh man, I love this.

  7. #80487
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Bannon was indicted, but hadn't been prosecuted before he was pardoned so double jeopardy wouldn't apply right?
    Trump pardoned Bannon for crimes he hadn't been convicted of yet. I don't know if it's technically double jeopardy, but he can't be convicted for a crime he was pardoned for.

    Bannon will claim that his acceptance was done just to stick it to the commie librul Deep State, as he is saying now. He will claim it wasn't admission of guilt. It won't matter, the evidence against him looks pretty damning. Let's not forget, his three co-conspirators plead guilty. Bannon doesn't need to admit guilt, they did it for him.

    Bannon's in trouble, maybe "he's fucked" level of trouble, but since NYState has his bank records and looks disfavorably on Trump allies who defraud charities, he has a tough choice coming.

    He could also plead out. Yes, he's claiming this is all a massive partisan hack, and admission of guilt would push that shit back in.

    But the other option is "fight an angry and determined NYState who has enough evidence to convict". There might be a loophole waiting somewhere, and I'm not an expert enough to see it coming. Other than that, he's going to be ground into powder.

  8. #80488
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Bannon was indicted, but hadn't been prosecuted before he was pardoned so double jeopardy wouldn't apply right? I do recall you guys getting rid of that over in NY.
    And accepting the pardon would leads to him accepting guilt for the crime right? Also since he accepted guilt, and the pardon, he can't plead the fifth, right? If anything I suspect a good amount of the pardon aspect can be used against him. Sorry for all the questions but oh man, I love this.
    More specifically, the pardon only works on federal crimes. So the state charges are fair game. But yeah, I'll be curious to see how the whole accepting a pardon works in regards to that, too.
    9

  9. #80489
    Though when I tried to put the WP article in, it just gives an internal error, dunno if they are overrun right now, or if it just doesn't work.

  10. #80490
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Trump pardoned Bannon for crimes he hadn't been convicted of yet. I don't know if it's technically double jeopardy, but he can't be convicted for a crime he was pardoned for.

    Bannon will claim that his acceptance was done just to stick it to the commie librul Deep State, as he is saying now. He will claim it wasn't admission of guilt. It won't matter, the evidence against him looks pretty damning. Let's not forget, his three co-conspirators plead guilty. Bannon doesn't need to admit guilt, they did it for him.

    Bannon's in trouble, maybe "he's fucked" level of trouble, but since NYState has his bank records and looks disfavorably on Trump allies who defraud charities, he has a tough choice coming.

    He could also plead out. Yes, he's claiming this is all a massive partisan hack, and admission of guilt would push that shit back in.

    But the other option is "fight an angry and determined NYState who has enough evidence to convict". There might be a loophole waiting somewhere, and I'm not an expert enough to see it coming. Other than that, he's going to be ground into powder.
    I think he's gonna fight this to the end, he won't fight well, but I suspect he'll want to drag his feet and keep this going as long as he can, while plugging whatever on his podcast is my guess. Even if he doesn't really put up anything really resembling much of a legal argument in the actual court itself much the same way he did with the Congressional subpeona charges, and it's nearly as much a slam dunk as that one was as you've nicely laid out. Oh and I love that this is state so fully televised as well. Will have to stock up on the popcorn.

  11. #80491
    Now that news broke of nuclear and military intelligence, I just had a little time of reflection on how many potential crimes Trump has done just during his Presidency.

    Donald Trump has been credibly accused of committing at least 48 criminal offenses while president or campaigning for the presidency.

    CREW created a table and list of potential crimes in link.

    Staggering indeed. Not all these Trump has been charged and of course some have been closed and exonerated I guess. Shocking part this doesn't include anything with the classified Mar a Largo documents that broke this summer.

    Just my retrospective on how much/many crimes this person has potentially committed as President. These are not jaywalking crimes either. Attempts to steal an election, incite an insurrection and now the removal or stealing of classified documents with some incredibly dangerous charges such as selling classified and possibly outing spies.
    Democrats are the best! I will never ever question a Democrat again. I LOVE the Democrats!

  12. #80492
    One thing to remember, if you're thinking that Trump would be too stupid to know what to steal; his handlers sure as shit knew what they needed him to steal. What if what he took wasn't random at all, but stolen to order? Or a portion of it was stolen to order, and the handlers told him to steal a bunch of random other stuff to obfuscate?

    This feels like a stable door moment. Because Trump would have wanted to get paid quick, which means the relevant information is already gone.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  13. #80493
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    One thing to remember, if you're thinking that Trump would be too stupid to know what to steal; his handlers sure as shit knew what they needed him to steal. What if what he took wasn't random at all, but stolen to order? Or a portion of it was stolen to order, and the handlers told him to steal a bunch of random other stuff to obfuscate?

    This feels like a stable door moment. Because Trump would have wanted to get paid quick, which means the relevant information is already gone.
    I don't know... Given the staggering level of incompetence that always comes to light when talking about Trump and those he surrounds himself with, I'm not really willing to assume that he has "handlers" who know what the hell they're doing any more than he does.

  14. #80494
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    So, are you saying that Trump possibly stole secrets regarding Israel's nuclear capabilities, which he likely sold/traded to Russia for something (maybe for handing over Kompromat or for a fat paycheck somewhere) and then Russia maybe sold that information to Iran who, in exchange, are now supplying Russia with drones?

    Because if you're not saying it, then I'm saying that's my theory.
    My money isn't on Russia, it's on the Saudis or another Middle Eastern country for many moneys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Hmm...I wonder what the justification will be for this one from the MAGAts. "They weren't our country's nuclear secrets, so it doesn't matter!"
    "He's allowed to have them, he's still President." seems more their style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  15. #80495
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    One thing to remember, if you're thinking that Trump would be too stupid to know what to steal; his handlers sure as shit knew what they needed him to steal. What if what he took wasn't random at all, but stolen to order? Or a portion of it was stolen to order, and the handlers told him to steal a bunch of random other stuff to obfuscate?

    This feels like a stable door moment. Because Trump would have wanted to get paid quick, which means the relevant information is already gone.
    By the time Trump left the white house all the "handlers" had resigned or been fired, the "adults" in the room didn't last long. I don't know if you remember but at the end he had surrounded himself with just lapdogs like Meadows.

  16. #80496
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Bannon was indicted, but hadn't been prosecuted before he was pardoned so double jeopardy wouldn't apply right? I do recall you guys getting rid of that over in NY.
    And accepting the pardon would leads to him accepting guilt for the crime right? Also since he accepted guilt, and the pardon, he can't plead the fifth, right? If anything I suspect a good amount of the pardon aspect can be used against him. Sorry for all the questions but oh man, I love this.
    For the bolded: The supreme court issued a ruling that stated this, but it's not clear it that ruling applies to all pardons or just specifically to the pardon in the case that was under review. Up in the air, but given the way pardons have been used by presidents in the past to free innocent people, likely not.

    For the italicized: No. Pardons only work for federal crimes, and, as he still faces liability at the state level, he's still in criminal jeopardy, can still plead the 5th.

    For the underlined: If prosecutors try to use it against him, I'm going to guess we'd see the case before SCOTUS on appeal. They likely have enough evidence to convict w/out bringing up the pardon at all, so there's no reason to bring legal ambiguity into the trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  17. #80497
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    My money isn't on Russia, it's on the Saudis or another Middle Eastern country for many moneys.
    Very reasonable guess, what with Saudi dictator MBS "investing" $2 billion in Kushner's company, over the objections of Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund management, while bragging about the secret info Kushner gave him to aid his crackdown on disloyal members of the ruling family of Arabia. The Saudi dictatorship is also hosting a series of golf tournaments at Trump golf clubs (with complimentary 9/11 lies by Trump) - I haven't seen records on how much they're paying, but Trump claims its worth billions because of the PR value. (Trump lies about such things reflexively, but its also possible he's covering himself against future discovery of gross overpayment.)

    Fun bonus fact:If Kashoggi or any of MBS' other victims exposed by Kushner and Donald were US intelligence assets, they're potentially facing the death penalty for that (in addition to facing it if they trafficked nuclear weapons data).
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  18. #80498
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    1> Which nation, I wonder?
    Could well be the simple answer: Russia, so Vlad would know what leaks to plug.

  19. #80499
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    My money isn't on Russia, it's on the Saudis or another Middle Eastern country for many moneys.

    - - - Updated - - -



    "He's allowed to have them, he's still President." seems more their style.
    lol, on a facebook post, one amusing answer I got (and please excuse my language as I'm quoting verbatim);
    because he doesn't answer to corrupt fucktards.

  20. #80500
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    If prosecutors try to use it against him, I'm going to guess we'd see the case before SCOTUS on appeal.
    It is exactly because of this, that I doubt the prosecutors will bring it up. They have enough evidence already -- his bank accounts and his co-conspirators who all plead guilty, admitting what they did was a crime under oath. While that was a federal court and, therefore, they didn't take a deal to testify against Bannon (probably...) the jury will have to face the question "why was Bannon, who took $1 million from a charity and kept it for himself, somehow the only person who didn't knowingly commit a crime?"

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