1. #80701
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    People kept protesting that I was in the wrong,
    Because for the last two weeks you have been surprisingly wrong on near everything you stated from your whataboutism about Hillary's buttery males to Trump being allowed to steal national secrets because some bullshit "privilege" and at no point have you answered why he took them, kept them, kept them some more, and likely still keeping some secrets, with the added likelihood of him copying and/or selling some.

    It's astonishing that you've kept this marathon of "alternate facts" going for so long, but it's tiring. The reason why people say you're wrong is because you've been wrong, the whole time. What don't you get?

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  2. #80702
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Considering my many posts on the subject, I'd like to hear from you in the affirmative or the negative that the DoJ should've treated the seized documents as being potentially protected by both executive privilege and attorney-client privilege. Alternatively, tell me if you think the DoJ was wrong and hasty to have disregarded such possible concerns considering Supreme Court precedent on the matter?

    I'm afraid further questions on related topics will have to wait until someone in these parts acknowledges DoJ error. It's a rather simple point that has no real influence on future findings by a judge in court, or even a possible indictment by Trump. If every member is willing to die on the hill of no process mistake whatsoever, future answers may be futile for the same issue.
    You should probably try to understand what the Supreme Court actually said. If the documents have any executive privilege it is because of the current executive Joe Biden. Not a civilian aka Trump. A civillian, aka Donald Trump, cannot exert executive privilege. And the DoJ absolutely should seize those kind of documents documents from a civilian, aka Trump.

    As someone who is currently 10 feet away from my significant other who is an attorney and is familiar with both privilege and the ethics exam attorneys have to take before the bar attorney client privilege is not this magical protection that means the FBI cannot seize the documents while executing a lawful search warrant. There is also a review process to protect documents that are covered and the documents are kept away from those in charge of the prosecution and the criminal investigation. If Trump didn't want his attorney-client related documents seized don't you think he probably shouldn't have mixed them in with classified/Top secret documents that are the property of the US government?

    I don't get to wrap a murder weapon in an attorney-client privileged document and then claim the FBI conducted their search wrongfully when they seize it. Which is basically what you are saying. He also could have complied with the multiple times he was asked nicely to return them instead of forcing a lawful warrant to be issued and volunteered to return the classified documents he stole. That would have been a great way to protect his sensitive communications with his legal teams. Even better than not mixing them in with classified US government secrets forcing the FBI to determine which documents were ones Trump took illegally and which were his.


    The FBI is quite literally following standard procedure here to review seized documents for possible conflict. And Trump is attempting to abuse the law and block it. Also remember communication regarding the furtherance of a crime makes a document no longer protected. Hope his attorneys have good attorneys! More than one lawyer dumb enough to work for Trump has had to lawyer up because of unlawful conduct done at the behest of Trump.


    You keep arguing a process mistake and yet demonstrating you don't know the process.

  3. #80703
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'd like to hear from you in the affirmative or the negative that the DoJ should've treated the seized documents as being potentially protected by both executive privilege and attorney-client privilege.
    Before said privileges were asserted, or after? Because the former's a ridiculous expectation.

    And if you only mean after, said claims are still up for consideration and review. If it's determined those claims are faulty, they won't be abided by, for obvious reasons. And it isn't Trump or his defense team who get to make that determination, or contribute to it in any respect whatsoever.


  4. #80704
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    "
    Honest question.

    Do you have a learning disability? You seen incapable of taking in new information? Maybe you need to see a specialist.

  5. #80705
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/13/p...vit/index.html

    A newly unsealed version of the affidavit that federal investigators used to secure a search warrant for Mar-a-Lago revealed some previously unknown details about the classified materials that former President Donald Trump gave to the Justice Department under subpoena in June.

    The less-redacted version of the previously released affidavit was unsealed Tuesday by a federal judge in Florida.

    It was previously known that Trump's lawyers provided one envelope to investigators, which contained 38 unique documents with classification markings, according to court filings. But the newly lifted redactions in the search warrant affidavit indicate that some of those classified files contained markings for "HCS, SI and FISA," according to court filings made public on Tuesday.

    These classification markings indicate that the documents were connected to extremely sensitive government programs. "HCS" refers to human sources, or spies, that often work with the CIA. "SI" refers to signals intercepts that are typically handled by the National Security Agency. And "FISA" refers to domestic surveillance and wiretaps related to counterintelligence.

    These new revelations confirm for the first time that documents related to these sensitive programs were returned to the US government as part of the June subpoena. Previous court filings indicated that when Trump voluntarily returned 15 boxes of materials to the National Archives in January, they contained 184 classified documents, including some with the same HCS, SI and FISA labels, as well as other classification markings.

    Most of the information in the newly unsealed document has already been publicly disclosed, but the less-redacted version of the affidavit provides some new details about the investigation.
    Seriously, are we ever going to find all the classified documents Trump stole? I doubt it at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://thehill.com/policy/national-...cation-claims/

    “Plaintiff principally seeks to raise questions about the classification status of the records and their categorization under the Presidential Records Act (“PRA”). But plaintiff does not actually assert—much less provide any evidence—that any of the seized records bearing classification markings have been declassified,” the Justice Department wrote in its latest brief.

    “Such possibilities should not be given weight absent plaintiff’s putting forward competent evidence.”
    Note regarding the whole hubbub about assertion executive privilege...Trump hasn't actually done that. He's just hinted at it vaguely. So once again, this matter is silly and largely settled. There's really nut anything to debate. Further -

    Even if plaintiff had declassified any of these records while he was president—a proposition that plaintiff does not specifically assert in any of his filings in these proceedings, in a sworn declaration, or through any evidence—any record bearing classification markings was necessarily created by the government and, therefore, is not plaintiff’s personal property,” they write.
    None of the classified materials belong to Trump, they belong to the US government.

  6. #80706
    Trump embraces QAnon’s ‘Storm is coming’ meme in wild Truth Social spree

    QAnon’s “The storm is coming” meme as he went on a “retruthing” spree on his social media website Truth Social.

    The “storm” is a conspiracy theory that eventually Mr Trump will release his secret plan to defeat the deep state and MAGA opponents and sweep back into power.

    It is at this moment that the deep state’s leaders are arrested and sent to Guantanamo Bay, according to research on QAnon.

    -------
    Posted for amusement.

  7. #80707
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Trump embraces QAnon’s ‘Storm is coming’ meme in wild Truth Social spree

    QAnon’s “The storm is coming” meme as he went on a “retruthing” spree on his social media website Truth Social.

    The “storm” is a conspiracy theory that eventually Mr Trump will release his secret plan to defeat the deep state and MAGA opponents and sweep back into power.

    It is at this moment that the deep state’s leaders are arrested and sent to Guantanamo Bay, according to research on QAnon.

    -------
    Posted for amusement.
    Yo, didn't one of those nutters just try to off their whole family, including their dog, and almost succeed?

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1569492668756987905

    Having trouble keeping track of all the political and criminal investigations into Trump? Don't worry, I am too, there are a lot. Like, a lot.

    Sean Hannity has our backs though, he covered every investigation currently going on into Trump and Trump's campaign/companies as well as some members of his administration like the use of private email by his daughter and son-in-law.

  8. #80708

  9. #80709
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Note regarding the whole hubbub about assertion executive privilege...Trump hasn't actually done that.
    Yeah, I think until we see actual evidence that Trump did anything other than think "Executive Privilege" any attempts to use Executive Privilege as a defense, that's you @tehdang , will be summarily handwaved. Trump can, at any time, go under oath about declassifying and/or privilege. Until he does, what he says on his Chinese knock-off Twitter is not evidence.

  10. #80710
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    My dear sir, you are continuing to argue that seven justices of the Supreme Court was nincompoops on the subject of executive privilege and "government property" in 1977. You've given no shred of evidence to why they're wrong, and you've barely acknowledged their arguments to why you're wrong, so I must ask again

    if you think Nixon was president,

    and if you admit he was not president in 1977,

    and what your theory is that Supreme Court justices argued and dissented about a case that you declare had no business being anything but 9-0 for reason of "he CAN'T CLAIM executive privilege." Do you have any intention to discuss your theories to why you find Nixon vs GSA to be so obviously wrongly argued? Any at all? Why didn't the Supreme Court give a one-liner answer to the tune of "Of course he can't assert it" instead of "he retains it, naturally, but let's discuss the details of competing claims?"
    Again, you were wrong. He can't claim executive privilege over documents that aren't fucking his. All of the classified material is the property of the US Government, not Trump. And again, Trump already lost an executive privilege claim this year that stated he doesn't have it anymore.

  11. #80711
    Old God AntiFascistVoter's Avatar
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    Ken Starr is dead!
    • Former Trump defense lawyer.
    • President of Baylor University, ousted after 40+ women brought rape complaints against the football team.
    • Former Epstein Lawyer
    • Former Blackwater Lawyer
    • Former Pro-Prop 8 Lawyer
    • Former Whitewater Investigator You heard this one before, the GOP launches a circus like investigation into the Clintons. Finds no actual wrong doing involving Whitewater. Caught Clinton in a lie about something totally banal.
    • Pappy Bush wanted to nominate him to SCOTUS .... Bush nominated David Souter instead.



    Gee how this lifetime GOP goon fell into Trump's orbit is a total mystery. It's like it's been the same GOP from Nixon all along.

    Liza Minnelli outlives Ken Star!
    Last edited by AntiFascistVoter; 2022-09-13 at 11:30 PM.
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  12. #80712
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit Halloween Voter View Post
    Ken Starr is dead!
    • Former Trump defense lawyer.
    • President of Baylor University, ousted after 40+ women brought rape complaints against the football team.
    • Former Epstein Lawyer
    • Former Blackwater Lawyer
    • Former Pro-Prop 8 Lawyer
    • Pappy Bush wanted to nominate him to SCOTUS .... Bush nominated David Souter instead.



    Gee how this lifetime GOP goon fell into Trump's orbit is a total mystery. It's like it's been the same GOP from Nixon all along.

    Liza Minnelli outlives Ken Star!
    Don't forget, he was the dumbass that tried to prosecute Clinton.

  13. #80713
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit Halloween Voter View Post
    Ken Starr is dead!
    • Former Trump defense lawyer.
    • President of Baylor University, ousted after 40+ women brought rape complaints against the football team.
    • Former Epstein Lawyer
    • Former Blackwater Lawyer
    • Former Pro-Prop 8 Lawyer
    • Former Whitewater Investigator You heard this one before, the GOP launches a circus like investigation into the Clintons. Finds no actual wrong doing involving Whitewater. Caught Clinton in a lie about something totally banal.
    • Pappy Bush wanted to nominate him to SCOTUS .... Bush nominated David Souter instead.



    Gee how this lifetime GOP goon fell into Trump's orbit is a total mystery. It's like it's been the same GOP from Nixon all along.

    Liza Minnelli outlives Ken Star!
    It was oral, not...wait....nevermind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  14. #80714
    Hey did you know Trump is a grifter? That all the money he has raised is likely going to him and his family directly? Shocking I know.

    Trump's PAC faces scrutiny amid intensifying legal probes

    So the short story is Trump has raised over $115 million, which is more than both parties have atm and almost none of the funds have gone to Republican candidates.


    Save America is set up as a “leadership PAC” designed to allow political figures to fundraise for other campaigns. But the groups are often used by would-be candidates to fund political travel, polling and staff as they “test the waters" ahead of potential presidential runs. The accounts can also be used to contribute money to other candidates and party organizations, helping would-be candidates build political capital.
    I love this definition of this PAC, which seems normal that any politician can do. Must be nice to raise money to buy loyalty and what nots. I love our political system!

    It’s unclear how much of that money went to legal fees for staffers after a congressional committee started investigating the origins of the attack. But at least $1.1 million has been paid to Elections LLC, a firm started by former Trump White House ethics lawyer Stefan Passantino, according to campaign finance and business records. An additional $1 million was paid to a legal trust housed at the same address as Passantino’s firm. Passantino did not respond to a request for comment Monday night. Payments have also been made to firms that specialize in environmental regulation and real estate matters.
    Undoubtedly Trump is using money to pay people so he doesn't need to pay them. Yet, more true, is Trump paying someone and taking a kickback. I can guess that $1.1 million only some went to that person, but most went back to Trump. This is the way...of the mob.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  15. #80715
    The Lightbringer tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    magical protection that means the FBI cannot seize the documents while executing a lawful search warrant.
    I never said these documents cannot be seized. Remember that documents subject to attorney client privilege were also seized, and the DoJ admitted to two errors in screening these from the investigative team by the taint team.

    There is also a review process to protect documents that are covered and the documents are kept away from those in charge of the prosecution and the criminal investigation. If Trump didn't want his attorney-client related documents seized don't you think he probably shouldn't have mixed them in with classified/Top secret documents that are the property of the US government?
    I never faulted the review process as a process in itself. I say that documents potentially protected by executive privilege should have been gathered and sequestered by the taint team, pending a ruling from a court on them.

    I don't get to wrap a murder weapon in an attorney-client privileged document and then claim the FBI conducted their search wrongfully when they seize it. Which is basically what you are saying. He also could have complied with the multiple times he was asked nicely to return them instead of forcing a lawful warrant to be issued and volunteered to return the classified documents he stole. That would have been a great way to protect his sensitive communications with his legal teams. Even better than not mixing them in with classified US government secrets forcing the FBI to determine which documents were ones Trump took illegally and which were his.
    I have never said the entire raid was wrong because the taint team made a mistake. It goes only to establish that the DoJ was overhasty, and perhaps a special master is needed to do a second look-over on seized documents. Secondly, I've never relied on Trump's actions or nonactions to form my conclusions. He could've done and said a million things to make it easier on himself, but in trademark fashion he makes his condition worse. It doesn't give the DoJ license to ignore Supreme Court precedent in the operation of their taint teams.

    The FBI is quite literally following standard procedure here to review seized documents for possible conflict.
    They failed to screen for a possible conflict. That is what this is about. Imagine if they'd taken pains to look at documents possibly subject to executive privilege, but ignored any such case for attorney-client privilege.

    And Trump is attempting to abuse the law and block it. Also remember communication regarding the furtherance of a crime makes a document no longer protected. Hope his attorneys have good attorneys! More than one lawyer dumb enough to work for Trump has had to lawyer up because of unlawful conduct done at the behest of Trump.
    I've never been in it to defend Trump's behavior. But don't ask me to ignore reading the Miranda rights to an obviously-guilty drug dealer, just because you have some idea of his chance in court. Capiche?

    You keep arguing a process mistake and yet demonstrating you don't know the process.
    Ask the attorney sitting nearby if he or she has read the legal argument of Judge Aileen Cannon in the major court order citing what I also cited. Is her Juris Doctor magna cum laude just an impressive counterfeit, or maybe the US Attorney's office for the Southern District of Florida only hires attorneys with no clue about legal privileges? Before I even posted here, an attorney-made-judge spoke on the worrying lapses in the filter review process (pages 15, 16, 17, and 18 of the order on my PDF).

    All this "wrap a murder weapon in an attorney-client privileged document" makes me think you're really all about the "the FBI used a process, therefore the process was well-observed and free of errors." I hardly need to remind you, given your statements, that a special master review, whether warranted or not, can conclude, at worst, that the DoJ did spectacularly well after looking at it in a second review. Secondarily, "conducted their search wrongfully" is too vague a description of failing to properly screen material that has already been seized. This is the process of reviewing material from a lawfully executed search warrant. I've never stated nor intend to defend Trump's statements on the search or his conflicting statements in general.
    Last edited by tehdang; 2022-09-13 at 11:52 PM.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  16. #80716
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I never said--
    Entire post handwaved. Until Trump says he either declassified and/or invoked privilege under oath, or until we get the standard documentation that he did either, your entire pointless point for the last eight days is now pointlesser. Please post constructively.

    - - - Updated - - -

    FOX News finally gets around to the wave of subpoenas and phone seizures, giving me a CNN point.

    Then, they talk about the warrant that was now slightly more unsealed. I don't know that we've seen a lot of this.

    One newly unsealed portion of the affidavit revealed that Trump, in addition to the original 15 boxes of records provided to the National Archives and Records Administration, produced additional documents bearing classification markings in response to a grand jury subpoena.

    "Since the FIFTEEN BOXES were provided to NARA, additional documents bearing classification markings, which appear to contain NDI and were stored at the PREMISES in an unauthorized location, have been produced to the government in response to a grand jury subpoena directed to FPOTUS’s post-presidential office and seeking documents containing further classification markings stored at the PREMISES and otherwise under FPOTUS’ control," the unsealed portion of the affidavit states.

    Another newly unredacted section details what a May 24 subpoena was seeking, including "any and all documents or writings in the custody or control of Donald J. Trump and/or the Office of Donald J. Trump bearing classification markings."

    Another unsealed portion states that lawyers for the Justice Department also sent Trump’s lawyer a letter that "permitted alternative compliance with the subpoena by ‘providing any responsible documents to the FBI at the place of their location’ and by providing from the custodian a ‘sworn certification that the documents represent all responsive records.’"
    So, yes, that last bit? Trump's rabid fanbase will claim that Trump was complying because of, heh, Alternative Compliance.

    But!

    The unsealed affidavit also revealed that an extension was "granted for compliance with the subpoena," which originally was set for May 24. On June 3, "three FBI agents and DOJ counsel arrived at the premises to accept receipt of the materials."
    Yeah, that time was up. Also:

    "The letter further stated that if no responsive documents existed, the custodian should provide a soon certification to that effect," the affidavit continues.
    That...could be a typo? Anyhow, that'd be the Bobb thing, I'm sure.

    There's nothing in the newly-unsealed part which helps Trump at all.

    EDIT: Oh, and as predicted, GOP sources are trying to spin this as "Trump returned more documents than previously reported". Um, he didn't return them all, so that part's irrelevant. That's like a guy saying "Your Honor, I just found a list of 100 more cars I didn't steal, you should let me off for the one I did".
    Last edited by Breccia; 2022-09-14 at 12:09 AM.

  17. #80717
    https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/...25291199217667
    https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/s...47934849634306

    Lindell stopped at a Hardee's in Minnesota and apparently got surrounded by the FBI and confiscated his phone. And told him not to tell anyone, so of course he's telling everyone he possibly can.

    Which he runs all his business on? And he doesn't have a computer? That doesn't seem like a smart business move to have your entire business empire running off a single point of failure.

    But what do I know, I don't own a pillow-empire.

  18. #80718
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And told him not to tell anyone
    Um...I don't think the FBI does...that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oath Keepers demand "special master" for their trial.

    "On what grounds?"

    Trump did it.

    "No, on what legal grounds?"

    One of the most cost-effective methods for managing and dispensing discovery of such a massive volume is to engage a special master to help manage discovery. Special masters can promote efficiency in discovery, the phase of litigation that is most likely to break down and cause delays to case resolution.
    "...no really, on what legal grounds?"

    None. The judge handwaved it like a tehdang post.

  19. #80719
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    But what do I know, I don't own a pillow-empire.
    To be fair, I'm not sure Lindell does any more either;

    https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota...to-have-closed


  20. #80720
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To be fair, I'm not sure Lindell does any more either
    Ouch.

    Also, this TheHill piece covers some old ground.

    Remember this?

    The government’s stance assumes that if a document has a classification marking, it remains classified irrespective of any actions taken during Trump’s term in office
    The DOJ's counterfiling seems to be aimed at this with pointy sticks.

    Plaintiff principally seeks to raise questions about the classification status of the records and their categorization under the Presidential Records Act. But plaintiff does not actually assert—much less provide any evidence—that any of the seized records bearing classification markings have been declassified.

    Such possibilities should not be given weight absent plaintiff’s putting forward competent evidence.
    There is nothing but Trump's non-oath word that any declassification, or PRA status, exists. So one of three things will happen.

    1) Trump can provide such evidence, which still won't help him much. Anything that's not submitted in the court should not be considered as evidence. And there is a standard chain of documentation for anything WH, which Trump's thoughts don't fulfill.

    2) Trump can't, his once bitten twice shy lawyers refuse to say under oath there is, and Trump's argument is discarded

    3) The judge gives it to Trump anyhow, handing the DoJ an instant appeal.

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