1. #81221
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    And again you fail to understand the basics here, well you do but you are just a forum troll peddling disinformation. trump never had ownership of those documents even while he was president. They were always property of the government. He also cannot just declassify shit by thinking about it. He never went through the proper process to declassify anything that was recovered, and much of what was recovered, is not subject to declassification.

    I have had property seized, but it was property I owned. trump never owned those documents, so they were recovered.
    You started with
    Well you must since you use seized, which would assert those documents were Trumps property and not that of the governments
    I made no such implication by using seize, which only implies possession, not ownership. See, for example, improper seizures (evaluating an act that doesn't imply legal ownership, but must be evaluated), or synonym "confiscate" or the meaning of the clause "take possession of."

    I never made an ownership claim, so please respond to whatever poster that comes by and makes that claim. You're either trolling on semantics, or not reading the posts you're responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    No, you were whining about the first amendment
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Biden's level of control of executive documents while he is in the executive office does not bother anyone.
    Sorry if I don't want legal rights and privileges subject to analysis at who it bothers. First Amendment protected speech bothers an absolute ton of people
    I'm using the First Amendment of an example of the dangers in asserting something wrong or right based on whom it bothers. Any whining you detect is purely fictitious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    you even believe Trump could declassify documents with his mind
    I don't believe it, nor ever said it.

    that he retains the powers reserved only for presidents after he has left office is all we need to see to know that you want him to have absolute power.
    He retains the ability to make that assertion, until a judge says otherwise. One just did for the subset of documents that were found to be classified. None have yet for the other twelve thousand. The DOJ acted as if it were the judicial branch with the ability to render court judgments, and now a special master is appointed to do that process for them.

    If you really think this has bearing on absolute power, maybe take a little time to reconsider the actual gravity on forcing investigators to wait a little longer to complete a review of documents it seized. Absolute power isn't a fair description of a prosecutorial delay of months. Unless you're really, really anxious.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  2. #81222
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    He retains the ability to make that assertion
    I can assert something is classified. But I can't actually do it. Trump also cannot remove classification while out of office. Which is why your following line about the judge is a lie. You are lying.

    You are also lying about the DOJ acting as the judiciary. The documents were classified, no record exists they were ever declassified, therefore, they were doing their executive office job. You are lying about that, too.

    Also, Trump has yet to say anything about the record under oath. The DOJ have. So it doesn't matter what you say about Trump's ability anyway, because Trump is not using that ability. In fact, he was asked to demonstrate he used that ability, and he refused. So not only are you lying, your lies are irrelevant.

    Stop lying.

  3. #81223
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    He retains the ability to make that assertion, until a judge says otherwise. One just did for the subset of documents that were found to be classified. None have yet for the other twelve thousand. The DOJ acted as if it were the judicial branch with the ability to render court judgments, and now a special master is appointed to do that process for them.

    If you really think this has bearing on absolute power, maybe take a little time to reconsider the actual gravity on forcing investigators to wait a little longer to complete a review of documents it seized. Absolute power isn't a fair description of a prosecutorial delay of months. Unless you're really, really anxious.
    A judge already has said that Trump doesn't have that assertion. He only has that option if he is the current sitting president. He is not, so he can't make that assertion anymore.

  4. #81224
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    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    A judge already has said that Trump doesn't have that assertion.
    Plus, he has it backwards. Because he's lying. Trump has not made the assertion the items are classified. His lawyers have been asked, and refused, to discuss the topic. So the opposite of what he said is true. A judge has said, I think technically four of them have, but Trump hasn't.

    You would think someone trying to defend Trump would pick something relevant to lie about. Instead he's hiding behind what "seize" means, which incidentally, he's wrong there, too. The word has a specific, legal meaning, so trying to dance around synonyms is just further proof he either is lying, or making claims about things he doesn't know as if they were fact, which is arguably worse.

  5. #81225
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...onal-archives/

    National Archives says they're still missing records.

    So they've asked for them.

    They've subpoena'd them.

    They've had the FBI execute a lawful search warrant to retrieve them.

    They still don't have them all.

    This is the first president I can think of where this problem has ever existed, much less been this severe.

    Just how many documents did Trump steal, and why is he so reluctant to give them all back?

  6. #81226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...onal-archives/

    National Archives says they're still missing records.

    So they've asked for them.

    They've subpoena'd them.

    They've had the FBI execute a lawful search warrant to retrieve them.

    They still don't have them all.

    This is the first president I can think of where this problem has ever existed, much less been this severe.

    Just how many documents did Trump steal, and why is he so reluctant to give them all back?
    the most benign answer is "he's a little crybaby who doesn't like being told what to do by the administration that beat him"
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #81227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    They still don't have them all.
    This is a massive problem. These things are not supposed to go missing.

    Simply put, based on what we know -- Trump had 200,000 pages of documents he wasn't allowed to -- the most logical explanation is Trump took them, then either sold, lost, or destroyed them. Yes, it could be someone else, but until there's any hint of another bad actor, we should be looking at the person who took everything else.

    I don't know what weight "Trump had them last, now they're gone" will have in court -- probably none. But in the existing cases, this can and should be brought up. In the surely upcoming trial when Trump is confronted with the items we did find, he surely will be asked about the items we didn't find.

    The next step is NARA disclosing what the missing items are...not to us, probably. If the DOJ has reason to believe Trump took and then either lost, sold, or destroyed a few pictures and meeting notes, it might not come up again. If more of the missing items are classified (Trump did not declassify them, or he would have said so under oath) for a good reason, the DOJ might have to start kicking in other doors. I wonder if Ivanka and Kushner mistreat their domestic staff? Because that's a good way for their location to get leaked to the feds.

  8. #81228
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...onal-archives/

    National Archives says they're still missing records.

    So they've asked for them.

    They've subpoena'd them.

    They've had the FBI execute a lawful search warrant to retrieve them.

    They still don't have them all.

    This is the first president I can think of where this problem has ever existed, much less been this severe.

    Just how many documents did Trump steal, and why is he so reluctant to give them all back?
    Does explain why they want a list of documents before they claim what was planted. The last thing they want to do is claim the FBI planted something they haven't found yet.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  9. #81229
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Does explain why they want a list of documents before they claim what was planted. The last thing they want to do is claim the FBI planted something they haven't found yet.
    They were given a list of documents and asked (by the special master, even) to verify it for accuracy. They could have claimed anything on that list was planted. They refused to engage with it at all.

  10. #81230
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    They refused to engage with it at all.
    I acknowledge that Team Trump has a tough legal route to follow while I also say I have no sympathy for them. They can't repeat Trump's lies on the stand, and they can't contradict him. That leaves a variety of "We refuse to answer" which, as we've seen, only Cannon is okay with.

  11. #81231
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    They were given a list of documents and asked (by the special master, even) to verify it for accuracy. They could have claimed anything on that list was planted. They refused to engage with it at all.
    They can't claim on the stand that any of it was planted, because none of it was, and claiming that it was would be them lying.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #81232
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    They were given a list of documents and asked (by the special master, even) to verify it for accuracy. They could have claimed anything on that list was planted. They refused to engage with it at all.
    Not forcing him to verify the contents, in this case, is actually a ruling I agree with. It's basically forcing him to testify that he committed a crime, as affirming that he had a bunch of classified material he wasn't authorized to have is at the core of the espionage act case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  13. #81233
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    UPDATE: WaPo is not having it. This OP ED calls it "a new standard of despicable".

    Outrageousness, of course, is Trump’s political brand, and ignoring his rants is usually the best thing to do. His spokesman insisted that his reference to a death wish referred to a political one, rather than literal one.

    But to dismiss all of this as just Trump being Trump is to ignore what is really going on here. The Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol by his crazed followers, after a rally in which the then-president urged them to “fight like hell” to overturn the 2020 election result, should have put to rest any doubts that his words can summon violence. (Trump’s beef with Chao is fueled by the fact that she resigned from his Cabinet the next day.)

    Knowing all of this, you have to wonder: Where are McConnell’s Republican colleagues in the Senate? Why do they remain silent when Trump does something like this? Is this sort of behavior by their party’s de facto leader acceptable to them, particularly coming fewer than 40 days before an election in which they are trying to pick up the single additional seat that would give them control of the chamber? Their timidity has fostered the free-fire environment in which Trump operates.

    Also worth raising is the question of whether the stopgap spending bill was actually what triggered Trump’s eruption. It is probably no coincidence that Trump’s attack came just three days after McConnell threw his weight behind a badly needed piece of bipartisan legislation that would reform the antiquated Electoral Count Act of 1887.

    That old law lays out the process for tallying and certifying electoral votes in presidential elections; its language, however, contains ambiguities, which is what Trump and his forces were trying to exploit on Jan. 6 — the day Congress met to certify the tally of the 2020 election. Among other things, Trump pressured Vice President Mike Pence, whose role in the exercise was supposed to be ceremonial, to throw out valid votes; Pence, properly, refused.

    McConnell’s honorable decision to support reforming the Electoral Count Act, despite the fact that opposing it has become a litmus test of support for Trump, has greatly increased its chances of passing, because it now appears likely to easily muster more than the 60 votes necessary to overcome a filibuster.

    “Congress’s process for counting their presidential electors’ votes was written 135 years ago. The chaos that came to a head on January 6th of last year certainly underscored the need for an update,” McConnell said on the Senate floor. “The Electoral Count Act ultimately produced the right conclusion … but it’s clear the country needs a more predictable path.”

    The right conclusion, in this case, was that Joe Biden was legitimately elected president of the United States. But by refusing to accept Trump’s lies to the contrary, McConnell has guaranteed himself a continued place in Trump’s crosshairs.

    No doubt Trump will escalate his dangerous and vile attacks on McConnell, because that is simply who he is. But let’s be clear that there is plenty of fault to go around. The Republican Party’s refusal to denounce him for it makes them complicit.
    As a reminder, yes, people can admit they were wrong, ask for forgiveness, and try to make amends. All of those are actions. Doing nothing means you either think what you did is the right thing, or know it's wrong and did it anyhow. Neither are redeeming traits.

  14. #81234
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    You started with I made no such implication by using seize,
    You did

    I'm using the First Amendment of an example of the dangers in asserting something wrong or right based on whom it bothers. Any whining you detect is purely fictitious.
    You know we can look at your post history and see all of the whining you've done the last month, right? Every "but Hillary", whataboutism, and conspiracy theory of yours is pure whining. Hilarious as it was, and still is, it's absolutely whining.

    He retains the ability to make that assertion,
    He doesn't.

    Perhaps you can explain why Trump hasn't turned over every document? Don't know why I'm asking, you still haven't explained why it was okay for Trump to steal documents to begin with, almost as though your bias is showing.
    Last edited by Dontrike; 2022-10-02 at 01:41 AM.

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  15. #81235
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    You started with I made no such implication by using seize, which only implies possession, not ownership. See, for example, improper seizures (evaluating an act that doesn't imply legal ownership, but must be evaluated), or synonym "confiscate" or the meaning of the clause "take possession of."

    I never made an ownership claim, so please respond to whatever poster that comes by and makes that claim. You're either trolling on semantics, or not reading the posts you're responding to.


    I'm using the First Amendment of an example of the dangers in asserting something wrong or right based on whom it bothers. Any whining you detect is purely fictitious.

    I don't believe it, nor ever said it.

    He retains the ability to make that assertion, until a judge says otherwise. One just did for the subset of documents that were found to be classified. None have yet for the other twelve thousand. The DOJ acted as if it were the judicial branch with the ability to render court judgments, and now a special master is appointed to do that process for them.

    If you really think this has bearing on absolute power, maybe take a little time to reconsider the actual gravity on forcing investigators to wait a little longer to complete a review of documents it seized. Absolute power isn't a fair description of a prosecutorial delay of months. Unless you're really, really anxious.
    Yeah you did by using the word seized. But again, you don't understand the meaning of words you use. It's pretty obvious.

  16. #81236
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Simply put, based on what we know -- Trump had 200,000 pages of documents he wasn't allowed to
    Just for illustration, this is what 200k pages of paper look like:



    Together 1100kg.

  17. #81237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Together 1100kg.
    Ah....this takes me back. Remember this?


  18. #81238
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Ah....this takes me back. Remember this?

    These don't look like binders full of women. Are these folders full of his lies for the week? /s

  19. #81239
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    UPDATE UPDATE: Rick Scott agrees.

    "Whoa, he didn't agree. He said this:"

    I can never talk about and respond to why anybody else says what they said. But here's the way I look at it is I think what the president is saying is there's been a lot of money spent over the last two years. We've got to make sure we don't keep caving to Democrats, it's causing unbelievable inflation and causing more and more debt.
    Did he disagree?

    "No..."

    Did he condemn the attack?

    "No..."

    Is Trump the head of Scott's party?

    "Yes..."

    Silence is consent. Any Party of Trump member who doesn't call out Trump's attack is therefore siding with Trump's attack.

    Here's the next part, about McConnell's wife:

    As you know, the president likes to give people nicknames. You can ask him how he came up with the nickname. I'm sure he has a nickname for me.

    But here's what I know: We've got to watch how we spend our money, we got to stop this inflation
    That is also not a disagreement, nor a condemnation. Therefore, agreement.

    Oh, he added this immediately afterwards. Like, the very next thing he said.

    I don't condone violence, and I hope no one else condones violence.
    "Um, Trump didn't say anything about violence."

    I know, funny how Scott immediately went from agreeing with Trump, to making a distinction about condoning violence. That seems like an admission Trump incites violence. Here, let me give a completely hypothetical example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypothetical Breccia
    I'm not commenting on Hammerfest. I don't know what's in his head and it's a free country. But I will say, I don't fuck pigs, I don't agree with fucking pigs, and I hope nobody fucks pigs
    See the problem? I did not say anything Hammerfest fucking pigs, but I did put those two side by side, creating that impression without saying anything. Of course i don't think Hammerfest fucks pigs, why would anyone? But that side-by-side statement sure makes it sound like I do.

    "You know you could get reported for that."

    Maybe, but anyone who did so would have to admit that Rick Scott thinks Trump condones violence. Considering I also spelled out it was a hypothetical I didn't believe, they're welcome to make that admission.

  20. #81240
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Now there was another option. Apparently, Team Trump isn't getting the items back (duh) but to review the items taken are supposed to get a scan of them. Okay, sure, Trump hired a foreign agent but let's give him a fucking scan of fucking nuclear secrets.
    Dafuq?

    OK, I'm a few days late to the party, but fucking what? This stuff is supposed to have a strict chain of custody. That is impossible if you make digital copies and hand them to the suspect who is under investigation specifically for improper handling of material, to put it mildly.

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