Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[ringpriest]

The only thing I can think of is that these people pay zero attention to everything going on, or they've bought into his propaganda and think it's all fake or an attack against him, the one and only savior of the USA... You know, morons.

It's not just that, although many Trump supporters - particularly the outspoken ones - are fools and villains (often both). I pay little attention to mainstream US news (although it's hard to travel and not catch some in passing) and when I do see it, I'm always a little surprised by how amazingly kindit is to Donald Trump. I think people get confused, because while it is seldom favorable coverage, it is virtually always the sort of coverage the legitimizes him, and paints him as a merely a corrupt tycoon-turned-politician. Yes, maybe more corrupt than most, but nothing more negative than that.

In short, US media, even supposedly Trump-hostile media, do not inform their viewers with any degree of fidelity about Donald Trump, a blithering idiot of a conman who would have been in jail decades ago if the US truly cared about whitecollar crime, and who would have been imprisoned or executed by now in any country with a functioning judicial system. He is constantly praised by faint damns, that in turn help normalize him.

A casual viewer/voter (and having the time, education and access to be more is a distant luxury for many Americans) concluding that Biden and the Democrats are somewhat less corrupt and quite a bit more liberal than the GOP and Trump (like the difference between Carter and Reagan, or Pappy Bush and Dukakis) is making a reasonable judgement, based on the evidence available to them. Sure, if they did a great deal more research, and/or had better sources of information and better critical analysis skills, they'd see that the difference is more like that between FDR and Hitler in 1934... but a society that would provide a better 4th Estate and better education wouldn't be in this position to begin with.

This popular confusion, is, by the way, why the Republicans keep hammering on Hunter Biden. They aren't trying to prove anything, or convince anyone paying attention. They are trying to maintain the concealing misasma that lets them pretend Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. Republicans need to conceal their fascism from poorly-informed voters who would oppose it, while simultaneously appealing to pro-facist voters of all stripes. It's a difficult line to walk, but the more they can blow smoke, the better their chances of making it. (To be clear, the Democrats are deeply flawed, as is the current Ameican establishment... but both are far preferable to the Republicans of Gilead and their cowardly Goering-playing-at-Fuher.)

- - - Updated - - -

Without seeing specific breakdowns of who voted for which candidate in which election, it does look like you're probably right that people vote for their team regardless. Well...except when it came to Hillary. Dems stayed home on that one because "who in their right mind would vote for the useless con man?"

Don't forget the impact of extensive Russian propgaganda ops targeted specifically at convincing Democratic voters to anything other than vote for Hillary Clinton.

Trump told his Russian allies to hack Clinton's campaign, and they did, stealing all her campaign's data, internal polling, and operational planning. Then Trump's Russian-paid campaign chair handed all of the Trump campaign's data, internal polling, and operational planning over to a Russian intelligence asset. And then a large number of Russian disinformation campaigns went to work and successfully flipped the election.

[taheen74]

It isn't a spite vote. It is the fact the Republican party, at least the voting base, refuses to acknowledge that people in their party should be kicked out of it. They refuse to accept the fact the party is a party of grifters, racists and zealots because the base is exactly those things. They welcome those things even though they accuse others of being said things.

This is why the GoP motto should be "Every accusation is a confession."

It's both fun and pathetic to watch the Party implode on itself.

[Edge-]

Atlanta law enforcement readies for a possible Trump indictment

[Breccia]

So Trump had announced, again, that he was the target of an investigation, again. Okay, we knew that.

But there's more to the story. And @Edge- I hope you're sitting down.

Two of the charges we already know because the House referred them.

18 U.S. Code § 371 - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States

This one is pretty direct. Trump was trying to get the government to give him four more years he fairly and legally lost, by claiming he did not fairly and legally lose. Oh, and the fake electors might be part of this. And maybe the murderous insurrection. Trump really threw everything he had and it wasn't enough.

Should it matter, 18 US Code 371 carries five years unless you were conspiring to commit a misdemeanor. Stealing the White House is not a misdemeanor. Trump should be worried.

18 U.S. Code § 1512 - Tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant

This code covers a lot, including trying to kill people, but Trump should be looking at this section:

Whoever corruptly—
(1)alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or other object, or attempts to do so, with the intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding; or
(2)otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

Yes, that suggests Trump could only be fined for trying to delay the certification. The word "corruptly" is Trump's best chance here, and it's not a very good one. Trump could try to convince the judge (and jury?) that he honestly thought he'd won.

That...is a tall order. He lost I believe 60/61 court cases on the topic, and the one he won did nothing. No reasonable person could conclude he'd won, so Trump would have to plead insanity. Oh, and that probably won't work, Agent Smith has a bunch of texts and other communication, and witness testimony, which say Trump knew full well he lost. Besides, Trump pleading insanity would (a) probably not work, it almost never does, (b) immediately get him thrown off the RNC ticket -- even they aren't going to back someone who admits they're not competent to tell right from wrong, and (c) goes against what a narcisistic sociopath would do, he'd literally rather commit violence than admit he's not the best at everything.

The NYTimes adds more info:

The corrupt obstruction of a proceeding charge has been used against hundreds of Jan. 6 rioters and has served as the Justice Department’s go-to count in describing the central event that day: the disruption of the Electoral College certification process that was taking place inside the Capitol during a joint session of Congress.

In other words, there's a ton of prescedent for this charge, not just in general but for this specific act. Trump should be panicking.

So conspiracy and obstruction we saw coming. There is a third code.

"Treason."

No.

"The Insurrection Act."

No.

"Perjury? Filing a false report?"

Not yet.

18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights

"...the hell is that?"

The United States is built on certain unalienable rights. One of them is voting. If you conspire to remove people's rights, that's unAmerican, and illegal.

Trump conspired to overthrow the election, throwing out effectively every vote in the US, even the ones for him, technically. Therefore removing one of the most vital American rights of 150+ million Americans. And, by virtue of being not the Insurrection Act, is much easier to prove. The aforementioned communications and witnesses will give Agent Smith a two for one special.

The NYTimes continues:

A series of 20th-century cases upheld application of the law in cases involving alleged tampering with ballot boxes by casting false votes or falsely tabulating votes after the election was over, even if no specific voter could be considered the victim.

In a 1950 opinion by the Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, for example, Judge Charles C. Simons wrote of applying Section 241 in a ballot box-stuffing case that the right to an honest count “is a right possessed by each voting elector, and to the extent that the importance of his vote is nullified, wholly or in part, he has been injured in the free exercise of a right or privilege secured to him by the laws and Constitution of the United States.”

In a 1974 Supreme Court opinion upholding the use of Section 241 to charge West Virginians who cast fake votes on a voting machine, Justice Thurgood Marshall cited Judge Simons and added that every voter “has a right under the Constitution to have his vote fairly counted, without its being distorted by fraudulently cast votes.”

The line of 20th-century cases raised the prospect that Mr. Smith and his team could be weighing using that law to cover efforts by Mr. Trump and his associates to flip the outcome of states he lost. Those efforts included the recorded phone conversation in which Mr. Trump tried to bully Georgia’s secretary of state to “find” enough additional votes to overcome Mr. Biden’s win in that state and promoting a plan to use so-called fake electors — self-appointed slates of pro-Trump electors from states won by Mr. Biden — to help block or delay congressional certification of Mr. Trump’s defeat.

Agent Smith is accusing Trump...of grand scale voter fraud.

I want to say that again, because some of y'all need to see this.

Agent Smith is accusing Trump of grand scale voter fraud. A crime which has been accused of, by Trump, over and over, but never committed...until he, personally, intentionally, and willfully, did it himself. Meaning, if Trump (and any of his co-conspirators) are convicted or plead guilty of this, they will be the only people ever convicted of the crime Trump said was rampant. Oh, and he claimed it had happened before he actually did it, so he was still wrong when he claimed it.

Can we re-draft Trump's election fraud commission? The ones that weren't arrested or died, that is.

"Fine, whatever. What's the penalty for that 241 thing?"

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both

"Okay, so a fine and maybe some prison time. Well, even if he gets the max, he could make it another ten years."

and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section

"...uh oh."

or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both

"Ohhhhhhhh shit.|

or may be sentenced to death.

"Mother fucker."

Yes. Trump should be mortified.

Now, I am not suggesting Agent Smith will ask for the death penalty. In fact, I'm saying he won't right now. I am only pointing out, Trump is accused of a crime which carries the death penalty. Like other "if someone dies" laws, hey @cubby back me up on this, the law does not say "the person who dies has to be the target of the intended action" but it says "if someone dies during the criminal act". And "hang Mike Pence" sounds like an attempt to kill to me, even if on-duty law enforcement weren't directly and physically assaulted -- how many convicted? Hundreds? A thousand? -- due to Trump's direct words and actions didn't count.

Smith doesn't need to prove Trump's actions led to a forseeable chain of events which led to death. I don't think the shooter was ever charged, and the murderous insurrectionists have their own problems. Smith needs to prove Trump conspired to remove the rights of at least one American to vote, by removing the results of the fair and legal election and declaring himself king. The "any reasonable person would see this could lead to death" kinda thing simply isn't necessary. Trump shouldn't worry about being executed, only convicted of a crime so serious he loses 2024 -- whether or not he's kicked off the RNC ticket isn't the point anymore. If he doesn't get a pardon, even a few years could see him die in prison.

We'll see what Smith does and doesn't charge, but, I can't think of a good reason that specific code should be mentioned in the "you are in trouble" letter if it wasn't on the short list. Three major felonies, each carrying possible prison time of five or more years (I have no idea what the fine would be for such an act on this grand a scale, even if it didn't work).

Happy Friday, everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

Atlanta law enforcement readies for a possible Trump indictment

And holy shit, that's not even the same indictment.

[Corvus]

The death penalty hey? I seem to recall Trump has opinion about that...

[Gorsameth]

Without seeing specific breakdowns of who voted for which candidate in which election, it does look like you're probably right that people vote for their team regardless. Well...except when it came to Hillary. Dems stayed home on that one because "who in their right mind would vote for the useless con man?"

2008: 45.7(R) / 52.9(D)
2012: 47.2(R) / 51.1(D)
2016: 46.1(R) / 48.2(D)
2020: 46.8(R) / 51.3(D)

But I don't think the raw amount of votes is all that meaningful in 2020. Since it was such an outlier for both candidates.

The part that matters to me is that in no sane reality should Trump have gotten more votes after seeing 4 years of him in the WH.

The fact that America as a whole didn't (near) unanimously reject him shows just how bad the tribalism in the US really is.
The GOP could put the literal corpse of Hitler on the ballot and he would get 46% of the vote. Because he has an R next to him.

[Darththeo]

The part that matters to me is that in no sane reality should Trump have gotten more votes after seeing 4 years of him in the WH.

The fact that America as a whole didn't (near) unanimously reject him shows just how bad the tribalism in the US really is.
The GOP could put the literal corpse of Hitler on the ballot and he would get 46% of the vote. Because he has an R next to him.

There are a large number of voters who always will vote for the sitting President as people think President are entitled to two terms.

[Poopymonster]

The death penalty hey? I seem to recall Trump has opinion about that...

YOU CAN'T KILL A GOD!
As he frantically has his personal toilet at Mar-A-Lardo outfitted with gold and life support systems.
JOB OPENING: APPLY NOW! We need 1000 REAL PATRIOT FREEDOM LIBTERIES AMERICANS to personally assist YOUR GREATEST PRESIDENT in his professional and personal daily activities.
Benefits, raises, promotions available after 180 days.
Some reason the positions are never filled for longer than...24 hours.

[Teriz]

The scary thing is if you view right wing media, they're really pushing the narrative that Trump did nothing wrong and this is a politically motivated attack.

Trump is playing into it, saying that his "followers" will react violently if he is put in prison. Then he has the audacity to say that the justice department rightly charging him for criminal behavior is "fascist" while he actively tries to become an American dictator.

What disgust me the most is that Trump is still polling at 44% in the general election. That just tells me that conservatives saying "back the blue" and "worship the constitution" are full of shit.

[Ivanstone]

The part that matters to me is that in no sane reality should Trump have gotten more votes after seeing 4 years of him in the WH.

He got the couch potato vote. Not voting doesn't mean non-partisan. You can be lazy and evil. Similarly Biden captured the Dem couch potato vote.

[Breccia]

Trump is playing into it, saying that his "followers" will react violently if he is put in prison.

I almost mean "let them try" because I actually mean "they did their best last time and failed". Trump was able to rouse a murderous insurrection that stormed the Capitol and removed the US from first-world status, that's true. But it failed, a thousand people got arrested, hundreds were convicted, and one was shot in the face and killed. That was Trump's best shot at using violence to his ends. Any further attempts will suffer diminishing returns. His followers will either chicken the fuck out like the craven pussy cowards they are, or come in smaller numbers that are easily stopped.

Hopefully the former, so that fewer people die.

Trump's claims that there will be violence if he's arrested is not a defense, it's a cry for help.

Then he has the audacity to say that the justice department rightly charging him for criminal behavior is "fascist" while he actively tries to become an American dictator.

Yep. His hypcrisy knows no bounds, because his allies and followers put none on him. To them, Trump can say and do no wrong no matter what.

This is why we call it a cult. Parties have leaders, Cults have gods.

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Judge Cannon gives Trump a yuge bigly gift, setting the stolen documents case May 20, 2024.

Making it highly realistic that Trump's lawyers will find just enough delays in the case, to push the trial back far enough, to ask Cannon to suspend the trial until after the election.

Regardless of the dates involved, "please push back the court date I have for actions I took in office, because I am running for that same office" is just fucking retarded. Even ignoring the pardon issue, the Republican Party has been pushing the whole "let him be held accountable by the voters" narrative, and this move shows how stupid that is when the evidence sane voters would need is being suppressed by the election itself.

I hope Smith appeals this date.

[Odinfrost]

Trump's claims that there will be violence if he's arrested is not a defense, it's a cry for help.

It's worse than that. It's practically a threat. "Put me in jail and there will be riots." is not something you want to be associated with.
Dunno if there are special laws regarding using threats to sway convictions, but it's illegal regardless.

[Sunseeker]

It's worse than that. It's practically a threat. "Put me in jail and there will be riots." is not something you want to be associated with.
Dunno if there are special laws regarding using threats to sway convictions, but it's illegal regardless.

It's also such obvious mobster language. "I'm not saying I will do anything, but there's a lot of people who like me, and ya know I can't control them, and they might do something. So if you want to avoid that something just make me President!"

[Endus]

It's worse than that. It's practically a threat. "Put me in jail and there will be riots." is not something you want to be associated with.
Dunno if there are special laws regarding using threats to sway convictions, but it's illegal regardless.

It's essentially a confession to a criminal conspiracy. It's not functionally different from a mafia don telling a judge that if he puts the don on trial, his guys will attack innocents to send a message.

It's just another cherry on the "rich fucks can commit obvious crimes without penalty, even if those same crimes would get anyone else immediately arrested and prosecuted" cake. The American legal system has demonstrated itself to be a corrupt joke, at this point, at all levels. This is literally what corruption looks like.

[Kaleredar]

It's worse than that. It's practically a threat. "Put me in jail and there will be riots." is not something you want to be associated with.
Dunno if there are special laws regarding using threats to sway convictions, but it's illegal regardless.

From a practical standpoint I don’t think the legal system is afraid of vague threats of y’allqaeda.

And frankly, I’d gladly take whatever nonsense they think they can pull should it mean that justice was appropriately administered upon trump. Throw all of them in jail too, for their trouble.

[Teriz]

It's essentially a confession to a criminal conspiracy. It's not functionally different from a mafia don telling a judge that if he puts the don on trial, his guys will attack innocents to send a message.

It's just another cherry on the "rich fucks can commit obvious crimes without penalty, even if those same crimes would get anyone else immediately arrested and prosecuted" cake. The American legal system has demonstrated itself to be a corrupt joke, at this point, at all levels. This is literally what corruption looks like.

To be fair though, I have a feeling that if Obama was doing this, it wouldn't be hand-waved away so easily as it is with Trump.

[Breccia]

Throw all of them in jail too, for their trouble.

Probably not. If they try attacking government and law enforcement, they'll just be shot.

[Captain N]

Probably not. If they try attacking government and law enforcement, they'll just be shot.

Of course this depends on how many members of law enforcement are actually in the rioters ranks.

[Breccia]

Who is Bernard Kerik, the person Giuliani tweeted about just recently, and who's been mentioned a few times over the last 3 years?

Kerik was the NYC police commissioner in 2000/2001. So, yeah, you probably already know where this is going.

Ten years later, he was sentenced to four years in jail for tax evasion, namely, taking large fees for speaking about 9/11 then not telling the IRS about it. Oh, and he also lied to Congress about it.

Judge Stephen Robinson went above the recommended sentencing range of 27 to 33 months in part because he felt that Kerik's abuse of the office of police commissioner of New York was part of a 10-year pattern of corruption and obstruction of justice that continued right into the courtroom.

"The guidelines don't take fully into account the operatic proportions of this case," said Robinson.

For more on Kerik's crimes, let's consult me from Nov 2021.

"Well at least Kerik is a known American Patriot and Very Fine Person."

Yes, as shown by the time he was found to have an illegal immigrant nanny.

"Okay, but--"

Or the time he committed tax fraud.

"...it--"

Or the other seven times he committed tax fraud. He plead guilty. And Trump pardoned him.

"...I mean--"

Or, the time he was working for W and took a bribe of $250,000. He plead guilty to that one, too.

"..."

And the time he took apartments set aside for 9/11 responders and used them to cheat on his wife.

"..."

Twice. No wonder Trump likes him.

As expected from a pal of Giuliani who lied to Congress and didn't pay taxes, Trump pardoned Kerik Feb 2020.

Later that year, Kerik and Giuliani worked together in -- you guessed it -- the attempt to overthrow democracy and declare Trump dictator.

We have proof of this:

In one email sent the morning of December 17, 2020, retired Army Colonel Phil Waldron wrote to a small group including Bernie Kerik, the lead investigator for Trump's legal team and Rudy Giuliani: "Final draft finding — includes DHS switch language as well as Foreign interference expansion and warrant issuance language."

Yep, this was the unsent draft for seizing evidence in the interest of National Security Lol.

Dec 24, 2021, Giuliani openly said that Kerik would make public the evidence of election fraud. For more on that, let's consult me from a week later.

Hey, has anyone seen Giuliani recently? He's been scarce since his non-attorney aide couldn't use privilege and has documents suggesting Trump just flat-out seize evidence under National Security Lol.

"No, really, what did he turn over?"

DRAFT LETTER FROM POTUS TO SEIZE EVIDENCE IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY FOR THE 2020 ELECTIONS

Kerik is claiming privilege. Which...yeah, he just flat-out can't do that. Oh, that letter was written 12/17 so we already knew at the time he'd lost.

By now, most of you have figured out why I'm writing such an elaborate backstory for someone that only hit the news recently because Giuliani tweeted his name.

Guess who's talking to Agent Smith.

There are only two reasons Smith would want to do this:
1) Kerik is being charged, and/or
2) Kerik is a witness testifying against Trump.

This can't be a surprise to anyone. Let's consult me from September 2022.

Justice Department officials have seized the phones of two top advisers to former President Donald J. Trump and blanketed his aides with about 40 subpoenas in a substantial escalation of the investigation into his efforts to subvert the 2020 election, people familiar with the inquiry said on Monday.

Another was Bernard B. Kerik, a former New York City police commissioner. Mr. Kerik, who promoted claims of voter fraud alongside his friend Rudolph W. Giuliani, was issued a subpoena by prosecutors with the U.S. attorney’s office in Washington, his lawyer, Timothy Parlatore, said on Monday. Mr. Parlatore said his client had initially offered to grant an interview voluntarily.

The "interview voluntarily" period is basically over. I think some of the 40 people subpoena'd ratted Kerik out.

Having looked over past articles, Kerik never had anything useful to say to anyone. Normally, I would say he never found proof of election fraud, but that target letter Trump got refutes that.

Kerik does have proof of election fraud. The fraud he conspired to cause.

This is standard "convict a mob boss" stuff, which yes, Giuliani and Kerik helped create. Guiliani and Kerik are close enough to Trump that their direct testimony to what they conspired with Trump to do will be damning. If Kerik refuses to testify, there's very likely enough evidence to put him in prison with the criminals he helped convict for 10 or 20 years. If he testifies, he'll be hunted by Trump cultists for the rest of his life.

Trump ruins everything he touches -- including the mayor and police commissioner during 9/11.

So let's talk about Bernard Kerik.

He's fucked.

[Poopymonster]

I almost mean "let them try" because I actually mean "they did their best last time and failed". Trump was able to rouse a murderous insurrection that stormed the Capitol and removed the US from first-world status, that's true. But it failed, a thousand people got arrested, hundreds were convicted, and one was shot in the face and killed. That was Trump's best shot at using violence to his ends. Any further attempts will suffer diminishing returns. His followers will either chicken the fuck out like the craven pussy cowards they are, or come in smaller numbers that are easily stopped.

I mean, they are more than welcome to try again in 2024. They saw what happened when they had on kids gloves, intel was fuckered around, and it was just one person from Chi-shit, wrong Trump fuck up.

Regardless, if they get a whiff of anything MAGA shaped at or near the Capitol, Been-A-Dick Donald isn't there to ignore the calls and hold back the national guard.
It would be messy, for one side at least.
It would be justified, shooting traitors trying to lay siege to the Capitol building. Again.
And possibly be what it would take for the GQP kick the moronic inbred kids out of their party.

I'm not wishing for the death of these mentally defective heavily armed PAYTREEUTS.
I'm just curious how many times the "Find Out" part of the equation has to happen before a "Are we the baddies?" moment happens.