Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

I don't believe there is an effective "rest of the Republican Party".

Not by polling data, but I'm still drawing a line between Greene and McConnell.

[Kaleredar]

Not by polling data, but I'm still drawing a line between Greene and McConnell.

It’s a distinction that doesn’t matter when it comes to president. They will all still congeal around the nominee, even if it’s trump.

Sure, McConnell wants a more controllable person than trump. But he’ll still begrudgingly accept trump over the notion of losing outright, which currently is the alternative. None of them have the balls to oppose trump, let alone collectively, and the gop writ large has been conditioned to feed on manufactured, nebulous fear for the democrats and “the left.” Far more than they might individually disapprove of trump’s various “indiscretions.”

[Edge-]

It's funny because Republicans think they're appealing to Black voters and viewers with their racism.

[Breccia]

Speaking of culty Evangelicals, a top official in the Southern Baptist Convention says that a lot of pastors are becoming concerned that the Trumpists are rejecting the teachings of Christ:
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/08/11926...p-christianity

UPDATE: Russell Moore gains support as another public religious figure agrees.

"Well, unless it's the Pope it barely matters."

...


"Oh, god dammit."

It is, indeed, the Pope. Or "the New Pope" for those of you who watch Helsing Abridged.

Francis made the comments in a private meeting with Portuguese members of his Jesuit religious order while visiting Lisbon on Aug. 5; the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica, which is vetted by the Vatican secretariat of state, published a transcript of the encounter Monday.

During the meeting, a Portuguese Jesuit told Francis that he had suffered during a recent sabbatical year in the United States because he came across many Catholics, including some U.S. bishops, who criticized Francis’ 10-year papacy as well as today’s Jesuits.

The 86-year-old Argentine acknowledged his point, saying there was “a very strong, organized, reactionary attitude” in the U.S. church, which he called “backward.” He warned that such an attitude leads to a climate of closure, which was erroneous.

“Doing this, you lose the true tradition and you turn to ideologies to have support. In other words, ideologies replace faith,” he said.

“The vision of the doctrine of the church as a monolith is wrong,” he added. “When you go backward, you make something closed off, disconnected from the roots of the church,” which then has devastating effects on morality.

“I want to remind these people that backwardness is useless, and they must understand that there’s a correct evolution in the understanding of questions of faith and morals,” that allows for doctrine to progress and consolidate over time.

Anyone trying the "I know Christianity better than the Pope" can just fuck right off right now. Not only is he a trained scholar on the subject and they're not, the Pope is effectively God's word on Earth. If you disagree, you're wrong.

Further update:

No, seriously. What the actual fuck? How did it come to this? How are we here? What IS this?

This poll led to this article, explaining (or attempting to) how this came to pass. I'll jump to the heart of it: cults have a sense of community, which is not what makes them a cult, just a requirement to attract and keep people. What makes it a cult is how dangerous and unhealthy that community is. The binding force in this case seems to be "Daddy didn't love me". Trump was not loved by his father, we nearly have objective proof of that. Trump's cult is drawn by that shared lack of being loved, but this lack of being loved in turn comes from being objectively horrible people. Trump is effectively the hyperbolic televangelist, telling people who have holes in their lives that they can at least help someone else by giving them all their money. This doesn't work on sane, healthy people.

What we need is more of the classic conservative part of the GOP admit it. It's happening, but not enough. Joe Walsh is not running for anything and can therefore speak his mind without consequences.

Former Republican Rep. Joe Walsh compared Trump to a “cult leader” and described the GOP as “a cult” in the wake of Trump’s surrendering on criminal charges for a fourth time. “This is not a normal political party,” Walsh told MSNBC’s Symone Sanders-Townsend on Sunday. “Donald Trump is a cult leader. He's become a martyr. Every indictment, every trial Symone, only strengthens him within Republican voters.”

“Overwhelmingly, the nomination is his,” Walsh said of Trump, who continues to poll well ahead of his Republican challengers for the GOP nomination in 2024. “And I worry and I fear that even in a general election it may help him. Imagine if he's acquitted or imagine if there's a hung jury on one of these trials. The possibilities scare me and should scare all of us.”

This is the divide I keep coming back to. There are people in the Republican Party who oppose Trump. I just wish there were more of them that mattered, specifically, enough to split the party in 2024 (possibly aided by a guilty finding) and force them to reflect on the consequences while staring down the barrel of a landslide loss. Because as much as Trump has hurt classic conservatives, they haven't abandoned him yet, and they're running out of time to do so and yet recover.

Speaking of guilty finding, Jack Smith goes to court March 4. If y'all remember, Trump asked for a date in April. Of 2026. The judge instead put the court date right before Super Tuesday. I don't think she was amused.

Chutkan said that Trump will have to prioritize the trial and that she wouldn't change the trial schedule based upon another defendant's professional obligations, say, for a professional athlete.

The public has an interest in the fair and timely administration of justice, Chutkan said. Trump's lawyer said that going to trial next year would violate the former president's rights, noting the millions of pages of discovery that prosecutors have turned over.

Earlier in the hearing, Chutkan said that while the special counsel team's proposal was too soon, Trump's proposal of 2026 wasn't reasonable. “Discovery in 2023 is not sitting in a warehouse with boxes of paper looking at every single page,” Chutkan said.

“This case is not going to trial in 2026,” Chutkan said. She pointed out that Trump's team has had time to prepare already; the public has known about the existence of the grand jury investigating Trump since September 2022 and the identity of many of the witnesses has been known.

In response, Trump's lawyer called it a "show trial" and said he couldn't be ready in time. The judge noted that for the record, and ignored it.

The consequences of Trump's many public trials for his many public offenses seem to have actually caught up with him and hurt him this time. Considering the very real threat of the Mar-a-Lago case, the one in which Trump has no defense and the evidence of his objective guilt is public, I expect his lawyers to attempt everything they can to move or delay this, but I don't think it'll work. The date is a full three months after Agent Smith's asked date already, discovery has already been presented, and "I'm not ready" isn't something that should work on a trial of this magnitude. Get ready, fuckers.

"But it's 12.8 million pages!"

Wow, sounds like Trump has a real problem, huh? He should get working on that. Maybe focus on not going to jail, instead of running for office? Also, 12.8 million is one page per person who watched the FOX News debate. That's a coincidence, I just thought it was interesting.

Incidentally, Trump's NY trial begins March 25. Yes, Trump's lawyers brought up how many trials Trump was in when trying to get a better court date. No, it didn't work. The easiest way to get out of being in so many criminal trials is to not commit so many crimes. If you ignore that option, you lose the court's good graces anyhow.

[Lenonis]

I think the rest of the Republican Party will.

I again gently remind you that it's a cult, not a political party at this point. The Republican Party lost control of their voters when they let Trump rise to prominence in the party. If they turn on Trump now they won't torpedo Trump. They'll just get themselves labeled as RINOs or worse and find themselves swept out of the primaries by angry Trump voters.

There is literally nothing anyone can do about Trump's campaign run other than Trump himself. It's too late.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone trying the "I know Christianity better than the Pope" can just fuck right off right now. Not only is he a trained scholar on the subject and they're not, the Pope is effectively God's word on Earth. If you disagree, you're wrong.

A minor but significant point especially when it comes to this intersecting with politics is that the Pope is the lead authority on Catholicism not Christianity. The US evangelicals (which are a force in US politics) don't even recognize catholicism as Christianity for the most part.

[The Stormbringer]

This hurts to say, but right now I'm pinning all my hopes on our legal system and Trump actually getting fucked repeatedly by his own criminal actions. Maybe, just maybe, multiple convictions will be enough so that he doesn't win the next election...

[Bluespiderman57]

I especially love how Judge Chutkan responded when Trump's lawyer said they would not have enough time to go through all the documents.

Trump attorney John Lauro argued that the date was unfair to the former president. "We will certainly abide by your honor's ruling, as we must. We will not be able to provide adequate representation ... the trial date will deny President Trump the opportunity to have effective assistance of counsel," he said, according to Politico's Kyle Cheney. Chutkan agreed that Trump needs more than five months to prepare, referring to the DOJ's recommendation, but said that the date proposed by Trump is "far" too long, arguing that the public has a right to a speedy trial in the case. "Mr. Trump is represented by a team of zealous, experienced attorneys. And has the resources necessary to review the discovery… I've seen many cases delayed because the defendant lacks adequate representation. That is not the case here," Chutkan said, according to CBS News' Scott MacFarlane.

It reminds me of that scene from the second PotC movie. "What do you mean you don't have time to review the discovery? Can't you just hire more people? Have you not introduced yourself, all these years, as Billionaire Donald J. Trump?

[jeezusisacasual]

This hurts to say, but right now I'm pinning all my hopes on our legal system and Trump actually getting fucked repeatedly by his own criminal actions. Maybe, just maybe, multiple convictions will be enough so that he doesn't win the next election...

Lets assume he does not face charges or is held accountable for his actions would he if he wins the next election start becoming even more more fascist? Would it cause a scorched earth style on the American public? As an outsider looking in at America it seems that we would see a massive change in the global western order because it seems nothing will stop his base from glorifying him as a martyr. One would think that mocking someone who is disabled and openly talking about groping a woman or worse peeking in dressing rooms would have ended the " Faithful " right wing following but it only emboldened them which leads me to think that they wish they could behave like he does and supports him out of that lust.

[Breccia]

"Mr. Trump is represented by a team of zealous, experienced attorneys. And has the resources necessary to review the discovery"

I can't help but notice she didn't call them good lawyers.

Trump has a proven history of firing lawyers who didn't make the impossible come true. He might have the resources, but I'm not convinced that'll turn into manpower. There are demonstrably fewer and fewer people willing to put The Scarlet L on their permanent record for an objectively guilty traitor who won't pay them.

Team Trump could try to wait until the very last minute (again) and ask for a delay (again) but I would advise them to not rely on that. The judge really doesn't seem interested in humoring that. Honestly, the smart move here might be to wait until the last minute, then quit. I mean, they weren't going to get paid either way, but leaving Trump without a lawyer might actually get him an extension.

[Kaleredar]

This hurts to say, but right now I'm pinning all my hopes on our legal system and Trump actually getting fucked repeatedly by his own criminal actions. Maybe, just maybe, multiple convictions will be enough so that he doesn't win the next election...

The race isn’t about convincing most republicans that trump is a bad person. That should have been evident to them in 2016 and exceptionally evident to them in 2020.

It’s about convincing independents that trump is a criminal lawbreaker and energizing democrat voters to go out and vote. That’s how trump lost last time, and this trump publicity does not paint him in a new “positive” light with either of those groups. It doesn’t make him seem a better candidate to independents or “less dangerous” to democrats.

On top of that trump is essentially running against Biden, America’s grandpa. The GOP manufactured nonsensical digs at him now for five years. None of them have stuck, largely because whenever they bitch and moan and pearl clutch about some hypocritical and usually imagined grievance they have about Biden, trump pops into the news to remind people he’s done worse.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Or, and this is a wild take. We don't pretend like the biggest attack on American democracy in its history didn't happen.

The goal isn't to keep Trump out of the WH. The goal is to show that there is still some justice left in the USA.

When sedition and insurrection go unpunished, it becomes a strategy.

[Redwyrm]

On top of that trump is essentially running against Biden, America’s grandpa. The GOP manufactured nonsensical digs at him now for five years. None of them have stuck, largely because whenever they bitch and moan and pearl clutch about some hypocritical and usually imagined grievance they have about Biden, trump pops into the news to remind people he’s done worse.

Expect Hunter Biden investigations to increase ten fold in the next year

[Kaleredar]

Expect Hunter Biden investigations to increase ten fold in the next year

I don’t think those will grab headlines like the trump investigations will. Especially because I see no real reason to believe the Hunter Biden investigations will bear any real fruit beyond the initial smear factor of an “investigation,” which is their entire point. Unlike the trump investigations, which are all actually going to trial

[Breccia]

I don’t think those will grab headlines like the trump investigations will.

I agree. The Party of Trump can use those to keep the base happy, but it won't expand their voter reach. Trump being found guilty of felonies and thrown in jail will cost them non-cultist votes.

[Surfd]

It's funny because Republicans think they're appealing to Black voters and viewers with their racism.

Imagine even attempting to put Trump's mugshot in the same category as Johnny Cash....... fucking lol. Cash would have spit in Trumps face, burned him to a crisp with a witty song, and probably shived him in a prison toilet for good measure.

[Breccia]

So at some point, the number of experts being interviewed on the subject of how fucked Trump is will get old. Not yet. Not soon. But at some point.

Newsweek talked to White House Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews who said

"I think that we're going to see [defendants flip on Trump] in multiple cases," Matthews told CNN's Sara Sidner on Monday. "Obviously the one you reference, the documents case, we suspect, I think, there is a name out there of someone who they think it is that flipped and I think that's the right call because at the end of the day Donald Trump demands loyalty from everybody but gives loyalty to no one, and he would be so quick to throw any of these people under the bus so I think this is crucial."

"The extent of legal peril confronting Donald due to co-defendant(s) cooperation is boundless," former Trump attorney Michael Cohen told Newsweek via email. "Meadows, [Sidney] Powell and even [Rudy] Giuliani are all in play as the reality of their own problematic destinies."

"Giuliani's legal bills are mounting, and he and his attorney recently went to Mar-a-Lago to ask for Trump's help," Nathan Price, associate professor of political science and international affairs at the University of North Georgia, told Newsweek via email. "Reporting suggested that Trump was generally not very receptive to doing so outside of specific items, and Giuliani and his attorney were having difficulty getting Trump to agree to specific amounts for them.

"I think Trump has both a legal and political interest here in helping Giuliani cover these debts to prevent another close associate from flipping against him."

The time frame for flipping on Trump is finite. Once it's assured he'll be convicted, deals offered will be reduced in value. Basically, once a certain number flip to guarantee a guilty plea, the door closes, and everyone else gets the sentence they deserve (since flipping on Trump will convict them, too)

So Trump might need a good lawyer. He doesn't seem to have one.

Trump on Truth Social vowed to appeal the judge's ruling but former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti pointed out that a judge's scheduling order is not subject to appeal.

"This talk by Trump's attorney, is meant to set up a potential motion to attack the verdict later — and make the judge think twice about pushing the trial forward quickly. The March trial date set by the judge will make it extremely hard for Trump's team to push past the election," Mariotti tweeted.

The former prosecutor added that Lauro's "heated outburst attacking Judge Chutkan would have a big downside."

"But [Lauro] has calculated that she is ruling against them anyway, so he is putting on a big show for his client (Trump) and trying to set up a public narrative that he is being railroaded," he wrote.

Former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissmann, who served on special counsel Bob Mueller's team, criticized Lauro's complaint about the trial date as a "thoroughly unprofessional statement."

"Chutkan hearing could've been worse for Trump, but I'm not sure how," wrote former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman. "She called his lawyers misleading, obviously took their proposal as a stunt, and set a trial date about as early as she might have. Does [T]rump now fire Lauro?"

"I'm all for zealous defense of a client but if you're already being warned not once but twice by a federal judge (who used to be a criminal defense attorney) to calm down, maybe, just maybe, you should rethink your approach," wrote national security attorney Bradley Moss.

"It is now entirely possible Donald Trump takes the stage at the RNC in Summer 2024 having been convicted not once but twice in federal court," he added.

Firing Lauro seems like it would fit Trump's madness. Lauro did not get results, even if those results (a 2026 trial date) were laughably impossible. Earlier today I suggested the best thing a Trump lawyer could do for Trump was get fired or quit, leaving Trump without a lawyer, giving another shot at an extension -- they're not getting paid anyhow. We may see if that happens.

In a related story, Meadows testified today. It...was not great, but he's objectively guilty, it'd be strange if it went well.

TL:DR

bullshit

I should expand on that.

Prosecutors questioned Meadows about Trump’s January 2, 2021, call with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger when Trump asked him to “find” the votes he needed to win the state.

Meadows was pressed about the claims of voter fraud and what he thought when Attorney General Bill Barr told Trump that the allegations were “bullshit.”

Meadows said Monday that he believed at the time that “further investigation” was warranted, even though he “had no reason to doubt Mr. Barr’s” assessment that the fraud allegations were meritless. But he said that he still thought “additional inquiries were appropriate.”

At the same time, Meadows would not say he thought Joe Biden had won Georgia when the call occurred. He argued that some of the things Trump raised on the call did need more scrutiny to determine who really won the election. “In my mind, that was an open question,” Meadows said.

Dodging the question implies Meadows knows for a fact the prosecution has proof you knew Trump lost, which is bad enough, but saying "I believed Barr but made the call anyhow" isn't helping. I do like that "in my mind" defense, which we should expect to see over and over, trying to thread the needle between "I am allowed to have an opinion" and "I am insane to the point of thinking Trump won, despite literally all evidenece otherwise and all the dates passed".

Trump spent a lot of today raging online, including the NYPost/Murdoch article suggesting Smith met Biden and suggested it was reason enough he should be let free.

It has just been reported that aides to TRUMP prosecutor, Deranged Jack Smith, met with high officials at the White House just prior to these political SleazeBags Indicating me OVER NOTHING.

If this is so, which it is, that means that Biden and his Fascist Thugs knew and APPROVED of this Country dividing Form of Election Interference, despite their insisting that they 'knew nothing'

Dismiss case!

As a reminder, Trump fired Comey after meeting with Comey about the investigation into Trump. So he has no claim to outrage here. He is just stamping his widdle feet and yelling NO NO NO! Even if Biden told Smith "I personally and specifically direct you to go after Trump for political reasons" this does not magically make all the evidence against Trump vanish.

And finally, Peter Navarro apparently is also in trouble even though I don't think he's been indicted recently.

Former top Trump White House economic adviser Peter Navarro told a federal judge that Donald Trump made it "very clear" that he wanted Navarro to invoke certain privileges and not respond to a congressional subpoena from the now-defunct House select committee that investigated the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

Yeah, this is about contempt. As a reminder, Trump can't assert privilege when Biden is the fairly and legally elected President. Biden could choose to assert it, but of course, he has no reason to.

Things are not looking good for Trump. Maybe he shouldn't have committed all those crimes. Then he wouldn't have to worry about the consequences of all those crimes.

[Flarelaine]

"But it's 12.8 million pages!"

Wow, sounds like Trump has a real problem, huh? He should get working on that.

Just the other day, my favourite source for Ukrainian news updates posted his professional opinion that reviewing that many documents is a matter of months.

Who I am matters as you read this particular story because I’m not just an attorney, I’m a very specialized attorney. My specialization happens to be very relevant to Trump’s case in D.C. I work as the senior manager of the discovery services operations division for a highly specialized legal services vendor focused on foreign-language electronic discovery.

He may or may not be telling the truth - he's anonymous, so, hey, he should be right at home here - but what he wrote sounds... sound. Yeah, no pun intended, it just came out that way. It's also informative on how this thing works these days. Like Judge Chutkan mentioned, it's 20-freaking-23.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ars-Here-s-how

Of course, throwing money at the problem is a requisite. And it's something Trump is constitutionally bad at.

[Muzjhath]

Now the question is.
Will Trump be using campaign funding this probably break campaign finance law?

[gondrin]

correct evolution

Right there automatically makes them not want to listen to the man. He mentioned evolution and a lot of those mouth breathers don't believe or even want to know about evolution.

[Breccia]

Now the question is.
Will Trump be using campaign funding this probably break campaign finance law?

The PAC(s) Trump is draining have had to file their expenses, and we've seen those posted even here. If it was illegal, we'd know by now.