Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Gorsameth]

So tired of this shit, on what this bitch ass baby gets away with.

See I'm tired as others have stated on spineless people and have so many in the system. Judging a book by its cover, Engoron looks like he gave up his lunch to the bullies at school. Seriously this judge is party of the system that doesn't ever want to upset the system.

As reported, possibly by someone here that Engoron and Trump's lawyer were emailing back and forth and Engoron setting guidelines, such as political speech, threatening the court, etc. What happens?

what happened is that Trump started rambling without permission and the judge didn't cut him off because damn holding him to any form of standard like everyone else.

If John Doe starts a rant in a courtroom he gets removed by force.

[Poopymonster]

Okay so I've had another 30 seconds to think it over and thought of two more things.

1) There was no jury. Antagonizing the judge is stupid. Antagonizing the judge, when the judge is the one who decides the outcome, is suicide.

2) I wanted to say, that this was a deliberate choice on Trump's part, creating the narrative that everything was rigged, because he knew he was going to lose. That might even be true. But he could have done that to cameras outside the courthouse. And Trump's lawyers disagree as well, or they'd have made that argument themselves. They didn't.

I cannot see a single benefit of Trump doing this. This wasn't an own-goal, this was punching your own goalie in the dick during penalty kicks.

There's more -- Trump is trying to introduce evidence without going on the stand, you can't do that -- but I think those are the big ones.

I'm a bit at a loss why Engoron allowed Trump to speak at all. The man has shown patience beyond what mere mortals are capable of. He gave Trump enough rope to run around the Earth, and still hang himself.

It basically gave the appeals court a free hand to say "As you can see, Engoron was quiet free with decorum in his courtroom. Try it here, and we'll cut a bitch." once it reaches them.
Kinda like Good Cop, Bad Cop?
Bad Cop, Worse Cop?
Good Cop, Interpretative Dance Cop!

[Breccia]

Trying to do everything to avoid a show of bias or unfair treatment and in doing so creating the reverse.

to avoid the appearance of bias

My assumption for some time as well. I do not believe Trump said anything in any way that was going to change the facts of the law, and therefore, the decision coming his way...shortly.

It basically gave the appeals court a free hand to say "As you can see, Engoron was quiet free with decorum in his courtroom. Try it here, and we'll cut a bitch." once it reaches them.

Hadn't thought of that. Also, I don't think they will, either. Trump is 400 pounds of white privilege in a 300 pound bag.

[zorkuus]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the decision is to let him off with less than a slap on the wrist. I am 90% sure he or his business doesn't have to face any meaningful punishment.

[cubby]

I'm going to need an expert on this.

@cubby can you think of a single dumber thing you could ever say to the judge, in the case in which you're the defendant? Like, even a hyperbolic one?

It would be a tall order indeed.

This little rant that Trump provided the court (and the record) is a perfect example of why his revolving door of attorneys have been beyond terrified of having Trump go on the record in any capacity. The things he says on the stand are sworn testimony, and subject to all the laws and punishments available, including further prosecution for new crimes.

Interestingly, closing arguments are not sworn testimony, which is why I think his attorney "let" him speak (I'm not 100% on that item though).


And in the broader picture, and as many have already noted, our legal system is broken/breaking. The fact that someone as felonious and contemptable as Trump is still allowed to stalk the courts with his lies and drivel, begging for violent action in defense of his "good name", is beyond atrocious. Any other defendant would have already been behind bars on multiple contempt charges.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Trump bleeding Republican donors dry before the election has even kicked off, still failing to defend himself and (he should) still go to jail. So now Republicans have no candidate and no money for the 2024 elections would be the absolute dream.

Well, the thing about that is, even if Trump is sent to prison, there does not seem to be anything that states he still can't be the candidate.

[Endus]

the system is capable of dealing with it. You just need a judge willing to say "I hold you in contempt, Bailiff remove the defendant from the courtroom"

Hell, you just need to put the standard at "I need a heartfelt apology and retraction of everything untoward stated by the Defendant" as the requirement to let him out of a jail cell, and Trump will never get out.

But no. Instead, Engoron's a fuckin' pussy. You should be holding Trump to the same standards as you'd hold a 19 year old gang member up on drug charges. Anything less is the definition of "corruption". You're giving someone a free pass on abusing your courtroom because they're rich. Grow a fuckin' spine, Engoron, there's nothing he can do to you and if his terrorist cultists are gonna bomb you, they're gonna bomb you anyway.

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Well, the thing about that is, even if Trump is sent to prison, there does not seem to be anything that states he still can't be the candidate.

Puts a bit of a damper on his ability to campaign, particularly if the prison decides not to allow special communications privileges (so he's stuck using public phones on calls to lawyers and the like, not press junkets in meeting rooms)

[zorkuus]

Puts a bit of a damper on his ability to campaign, particularly if the prison decides not to allow special communications privileges (so he's stuck using public phones on calls to lawyers and the like, not press junkets in meeting rooms)

Bold to assume that they would not give him any more special privileges. The track record on that is not good.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Puts a bit of a damper on his ability to campaign, particularly if the prison decides not to allow special communications privileges (so he's stuck using public phones on calls to lawyers and the like, not press junkets in meeting rooms)

Sure, but:

a) it's unlikely he'd even go to an actual prison
b) even if he did it's unlikely they'd cut off his access like that.
c) if they did it would just fuel his "witchhunt" claims
d) Republicans will vote for the republican candidate even if he is in jail

They've been bending over backwards to show that Donald Trump isn;t being treated unfairly... but the side effect of that is just to put a spotlight on how unfair it is to everyone else.

[Breccia]

Interestingly, closing arguments are not sworn testimony, which is why I think his attorney "let" him speak (I'm not 100% on that item though).

I am disappointed to learn that you can lie during closing arguments with no consequences. Perhaps that's why Trump insisted on giving the closing -- he could lie all he wanted.

However, I was moderately sure that you could not introduce evidence during them, either, and the things Trump said, yes they were false, but were presented as facts. The judge could have shut him off on the spot and chose not to.

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Puts a bit of a damper on his ability to campaign

I, personally, want to see the debates if Trump is in prison. Not because he'd have to Zoom the debates in an orange jumpsuit, but because he just wouldn't go, and Biden could keep pointing that out with hours and hours of free publicity.

He will appeal any guilty finding of course, this is a pipe dream.

[zorkuus]

I am disappointed to learn that you can lie during closing arguments with no consequences.

Well... you can't, if the judge had the balls to put a stop to the irrelevant rant.

[cubby]

I am disappointed to learn that you can lie during closing arguments with no consequences. Perhaps that's why Trump insisted on giving the closing -- he could lie all he wanted.

However, I was moderately sure that you could not introduce evidence during them, either, and the things Trump said, yes they were false, but were presented as facts. The judge could have shut him off on the spot and chose not to.

Normally you can't introduce new evidence in closing arguments - especially in a jury trial (still ultimate LOL'd that Trump's Bigly Excellent attorneys fucked that up). Had this been a jury trial, he would have been shut down immediately - despite Engoron's impotence.

However (and this is the watchword for Trump's entire life/career), because this was a judge trial, the judge can grant more leeway, because only the judge is evaluating the evidence in trial.

I, personally, want to see the debates if Trump is in prison. Not because he'd have to Zoom the debates in an orange jumpsuit, but because he just wouldn't go, and Biden could keep pointing that out with hours and hours of free publicity.

He will appeal any guilty finding of course, this is a pipe dream.

Same. Also, if he is actually in jail, the media will give him another $3B-$4B in free ad time because of it. Debating from jail - he might actually win.

[rayvio]

I'm going to need an expert on this.

@cubby can you think of a single dumber thing you could ever say to the judge, in the case in which you're the defendant? Like, even a hyperbolic one?

appropriately for a man... sorry, an orange allegedly human male with an unidentified (and possibly dead?) mutant life form living on his head... named after breaking wind... he loves to talk our of his arse. the mystery is why his cultists line up to kiss it
but never assume that there isn't something more stupid that he could have said because the next time he makes a statement he'll prove that there's worse

[Kaleredar]

I am disappointed to learn that you can lie during closing arguments with no consequences. Perhaps that's why Trump insisted on giving the closing -- he could lie all he wanted.

However, I was moderately sure that you could not introduce evidence during them, either, and the things Trump said, yes they were false, but were presented as facts. The judge could have shut him off on the spot and chose not to.

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I, personally, want to see the debates if Trump is in prison. Not because he'd have to Zoom the debates in an orange jumpsuit, but because he just wouldn't go, and Biden could keep pointing that out with hours and hours of free publicity.

He will appeal any guilty finding of course, this is a pipe dream.

I mean does it really matter, as far as the trial is concerned, if Trump makes up nonsense on the stand during closing arguments? I’m hoping the judge just sees through that bullshit. There’s no jury for him to attempt to last-minute sway with some Perry Mason nonsense.

[Breccia]

I mean does it really matter, as far as the trial is concerned, if Trump makes up nonsense on the stand during closing arguments?

Yes, if
a) he was subject to perjury for it (he's not), and/or
b) he was subject to contempt for it, and of course, the judge did something about it

You're right that the judge doesn't believe Trump, but at that point, why let him say anything? There was nothing to be gained here.

[zorkuus]

You're right that the judge doesn't believe Trump, but at that point, why let him say anything? There was nothing to be gained here.

This whole fiasco gives the impression that (bomb) threats work.

[Breccia]

I think the stock market’s going up because I’m leading Biden in the polls.

-- Donald Trump

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Yes, if
a) he was subject to perjury for it (he's not), and/or
b) he was subject to contempt for it, and of course, the judge did something about it

You're right that the judge doesn't believe Trump, but at that point, why let him say anything? There was nothing to be gained here.

Some talking heads i saw on TV today say Engoron is just trying not to give Trump any grounds for appeal. Can't really cry that the judge was biased agaisnt you when he went above and beyond to make sure Trump was afforded ever opportunity.

[Breccia]

Some talking heads i saw on TV today say Engoron is just trying not to give Trump any grounds for appeal

That's been kicked around for a while. The rest I don't know, I'm not informed enough to know if that means "he can't even get an appeals court to listen" versus "they'll listen, but he won't have a case when they do" or if that difference matters.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That's been kicked around for a while. The rest I don't know, I'm not informed enough to know if that means "he can't even get an appeals court to listen" versus "they'll listen, but he won't have a case when they do" or if that difference matters.

I'm not super familiar myself with how it all shakes out in regards to that. I'm not even sure if that's the reason why Engoran is being so accomodating.

I'm just aggravated by all of this "performative fairness".