1. #88361
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Hopefully more states begin removing Trump from the ballots. And not just blue states. We will need purple states to throw him off as well.
    Only like 5 states actually matter anymore so it really doesn't matter if other states remove him or not. The only states likely to remove him he wouldn't win anyways.

    I'm not entirely sold on that whole scheme, tbh.

  2. #88362
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I'm not entirely sold on that whole scheme, tbh.
    I am.

    First, second, fourth and fifth of all, principle. The 14th exists for this very reason. Nobody has deserved its application for, what, a century? But Trump has. He started an insurrection and tried to declare himself king. No. This is the United States. We don't do that.

    But third of all is logistics. Trump will have to fight these court proceedings like the others. While he still has support, he has finite money and finiter lawyers. Trump might have to make decisions like "which is worse, being kicked off the Colorado ballot, or paying damages to that woman I raped?"

    Trump being sued by everyone, charged by everyone, having his legitimacy being questioned by everyone, is democracy in action. He woke the beast. I won't be satisfied until democracy itself is chewing on the bloody bones of his dead campaign.

  3. #88363
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I'm not entirely sold on that whole scheme, tbh.
    I mean it's not exactly a scheme, per se. It's in the Amendments. It's arguable that a couple states are jumping the gun, however (even though according to the relevant Amendment a conviction isn't necessary). Either way, as you say, it won't really matter until states he could actually win start doing it.

  4. #88364
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Only like 5 states actually matter anymore so it really doesn't matter if other states remove him or not. The only states likely to remove him he wouldn't win anyways.

    I'm not entirely sold on that whole scheme, tbh.
    Maybe if we didn't have a janked election system that uses the electoral college instead of actual votes we wouldn't have to worry about those five states.
    "The customer is always right" is a nice way of saying "I will put up with your bullshit as long as you pay me"

  5. #88365
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Almost? Trump absolutely said he won. Multiple times, never retracted.
    Trump doesn't look to be getting away with trying to end democracy, he is facing multiple lawsuits over it and he will almost certainly lose them.

    That is the part that has been stopping Republicans in the past. If you asked any of them before 2020 if it was possible to come as close to actually overturning an election result as Trump managed they would have said "absolutely not".
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #88366
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Well, the thing of that is his term is until Jan 2027...so he won't have 4 years out of office...if he decides to try again in a Trump free environment in 2028. I'm not saying his chances would be much better though.
    The problem is... If Trump gets reelected this year, it sort of implies downballot races will favour the Republicans as well. With a cult takeover of both houses of Congress he may just go for dictator for life. And this SCOTUS will not stop him.

  7. #88367
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    The problem is... If Trump gets reelected this year, it sort of implies downballot races will favour the Republicans as well. With a cult takeover of both houses of Congress he may just go for dictator for life. And this SCOTUS will not stop him.
    That is an entirely different discussion. And if that happened you would have a whole lot more important things happening to conern yourself with what DeSantis is gonna do in 2028

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Maybe if we didn't have a janked election system that uses the electoral college instead of actual votes we wouldn't have to worry about those five states.
    Well, in that case you wouldn't have to worry about removing him from the ballet at all.
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2024-01-22 at 07:11 PM.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  8. #88368
    The Lightbringer bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Hopefully more states begin removing Trump from the ballots. And not just blue states. We will need purple states to throw him off as well.
    These states are removing him from the ballot for the primaries only I thought? Kinda moot since he's still going to be the republican nominee anyway.

  9. #88369
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    i disagree, because everything that trump is now is everything US conservatism has been for *at least* the last 160 years, if not longer.
    there is not one single aspect of trump, his supporters, or those in orbit around him that is any way new to US politics, it's simply the same culture-war "blame the other" distract the lower class so they don't notice they're being robbed by the upper class predatory capitalistic Manifest Destiny bullshit the US has been peddling since the end of WWII.

    conservatives of any stripe in any country and any culture hate democracy, that's why you rarely see fascist dictators go "oops oh well i lost the election guess i better relinquish my iron grip of the populace".
    being anti-democracy and pro-authoritarian is the sine qua non of social and political conservatism, no matter what era or region of the world you're in.
    it's as baked into the process as the notion of there being a god is baked into the notion of religion.

    the ONLY thing that has changed in the last 10 years in the US is that prior to this the republican party put on a business suit and a mask made out of human flesh and said shit like "it's morning in america again" to get the idiot proles to go along with their own subjugation.
    this is a trick that US conservatives figured out about 200 years ago, that the populace is profoundly stupid and you can get them to actively participate in their own oppression if you toss some catchy slogans at them and tell them their woes are the fault of somebody brown.
    but, the trick they were using was to get the masses to go along with effectively proto-fascism, excepting that instead of the fascism glorifying a single leader it was glorifying "infinite and never ending growth" vulture capitalism.

    conservatives view 'democracy' the same way they view their abrahamic-christian interpretation of 'free will' - it's a system where everyone is free and unencumbered to make their own choices, so long as those people only make the choice that the ones in charge like, and if they don't make that choice they'll be horribly punished and brutalized for it... but hey man it's totally your free choice.
    There is a song by Metallia called Eye of the Beholder that basically states this.

    "Do you see what I see?
    Truth is an offense
    You silence for your confidence

    Do you hear what I hear?
    Doors are slamming shut
    Limit your imagination
    Keep you where they must

    Do you feel what I feel?
    Bittering distress
    Who decides what you express?

    Do you take what I take?
    Endurance is the word
    Moving back instead of forward
    Seems to me absurd

    Doesn't matter what you see
    Or into it what you read
    You can do it your own way
    If it's done just how I say

    Independence limited
    Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend
    Freedom of speech is words that they will bend
    Freedom with their exception

    Do you fear what I fear?
    Living properly
    Truths to you are lies to me

    Do you choose what I choose?
    More alternatives
    Energy derives from both the plus and negative

    Do you need what I need?
    Boundaries overthrown
    Look inside to each his own

    Do you trust what I trust?
    Me, myself and I
    Penetrate the smoke screen
    I see through the selfish lie

    Doesn't matter what you see
    Or into it what you read
    You can do it your own way
    If it's done just how I say

    Independence limited
    Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend
    Freedom of speech is words that they will bend
    Freedom with their exception

    Do you know what I know?
    Your money and your wealth
    You silence just to hear yourself

    Do you want what I want?
    Desire not a thing
    I hunger after independence
    Lengthen freedom's ring

    Doesn't matter what you see
    Or into it what you read
    You can do it your own way
    If it's done just how I say

    Independence limited
    Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend
    Freedom of speech is words that they will bend
    Freedom no longer frees you

    Doesn't matter what you see
    Or into it what you read
    You can do it your own way
    If it's done just how I say"

  10. #88370
    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    These states are removing him from the ballot for the primaries only I thought? Kinda moot since he's still going to be the republican nominee anyway.
    You're right. It was only to remove him from the primary ballot. Which is even more ineffectual.
    "The customer is always right" is a nice way of saying "I will put up with your bullshit as long as you pay me"

  11. #88371
    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    These states are removing him from the ballot for the primaries only I thought? Kinda moot since he's still going to be the republican nominee anyway.
    Technically that is what they are doing now. However, if they succeed in it on 14th Amendment grounds it should also automatically apply to proper election ballots as well. The idea, then, is fighting it now to have enough time to make it through the appeals process.

  12. #88372
    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    These states are removing him from the ballot for the primaries only I thought?
    Only because those are the only ballots being created right now. Their reasoning was that because he's inelligible to actually hold office, he shouldn't even be on the primary ballot. It's implicit that by that logic he wouldn't be on the actual ballot either.

  13. #88373
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Florida attempts to pass law to hand Trump five million dollars.

    On Monday, a new piece of legislation, championed by Florida Chief Financial Officer Jimmy Patronis, was introduced by Florida state Senator Ileana Garcia which would create the "Florida Freedom Fighters Fund." The fund would provide up to $5 million to cover legal costs for Florida residents who are running for president, like Trump, and face "legal, partisan, political attacks by the Department of Justice or State Attorneys," according to a release from Patronis's office.
    "What objective measure would they use to define "partisan"?

    I'm sure the GOP-led Florida government will just know it when they see it.

    "Interesting that this was brought up literally the same 24-hour period DeSantis stopped running, therefore, there is only one Florida resident running."

    Yes. This is a law for Trump and only Trump to be given money by Florida taxpayers, even Democrats.

  14. #88374
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Florida attempts to pass law to hand Trump five million dollars.



    "What objective measure would they use to define "partisan"?

    I'm sure the GOP-led Florida government will just know it when they see it.

    "Interesting that this was brought up literally the same 24-hour period DeSantis stopped running, therefore, there is only one Florida resident running."

    Yes. This is a law for Trump and only Trump to be given money by Florida taxpayers, even Democrats.
    Boy, there's another example of why CFO's are probably a job that should be automated by AI sooner rather than later.

    What's hilarious is that he proposed this after the governor of Florida, who also lives in Florida, withdrew from the race. I don't know why but that makes it even more funny to me, like even Ron's own Republican legislators who bent over backwards for him the past few years have had enough of his shit.

    But really, the cult of Donald Trump is truly astounding.

  15. #88375
    The Lightbringer bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Only because those are the only ballots being created right now. Their reasoning was that because he's inelligible to actually hold office, he shouldn't even be on the primary ballot. It's implicit that by that logic he wouldn't be on the actual ballot either.
    Except MAGA would just write him in. The only way people aren't gonna vote for him is if he's by law ineligible to hold office for inciting an insurrection, and I don't think that would even stop him from telling people to write him in anyway. His votes would just be trashed at thst point.

  16. #88376
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    Except MAGA would just write him in. The only way people aren't gonna vote for him is if he's by law ineligible to hold office for inciting an insurrection, and I don't think that would even stop him from telling people to write him in anyway. His votes would just be trashed at thst point.
    So, if a Read this cOrrectly, thiS would Split the conservative votes, and Probably not changE a single democRat vOTe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  17. #88377
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    (even though according to the relevant Amendment a conviction isn't necessary).
    You don't have to be convicted to be Impeached. No reason why anyone should believe you have to be convicted to fall foul of the 14th, either.

    Unless it is explicitly stated, it's not required. If the 14th had required conviction it would have explicitly said so.

    In all honesty, I doubt those who drafted the 14th thought about the conviction scenario because the idea of anyone convicted and still running for POTUS, much less winning, would surely have seemed ludicrous to them.

    And yet here we are...

  18. #88378
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Florida attempts to pass law to hand Trump five million dollars.



    "What objective measure would they use to define "partisan"?

    I'm sure the GOP-led Florida government will just know it when they see it.

    "Interesting that this was brought up literally the same 24-hour period DeSantis stopped running, therefore, there is only one Florida resident running."

    Yes. This is a law for Trump and only Trump to be given money by Florida taxpayers, even Democrats.
    Fairly certain this was also floating before there was any notion of DeSantis pulling out of the race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    You don't have to be convicted to be Impeached. No reason why anyone should believe you have to be convicted to fall foul of the 14th, either.

    Unless it is explicitly stated, it's not required. If the 14th had required conviction it would have explicitly said so.

    In all honesty, I doubt those who drafted the 14th thought about the conviction scenario because the idea of anyone convicted and still running for POTUS, much less winning, would surely have seemed ludicrous to them.

    And yet here we are...
    Section 5 of the 14th amendment says its up to Congress to enforce it. So its not a criminal matter, Congress has to ban someone from running. Which makes this dead in the water and what I would expect the SC to rule.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #88379
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Fairly certain this was also floating before there was any notion of DeSantis pulling out of the race.
    Maybe, but the current situation tells a very specific story. Florida is now offering to fund Trump, and only Trump, full stop.

  20. #88380
    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    Except MAGA would just write him in.
    Yeah, but so what? People could write in Arnold Schwarzeneggar, too, but if he's not allowed to win he shouldn't be on the ballot.

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