1. #90721
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Surprising absolutely noone, the jury did not reach a verdict right away. So we all get to hurry up and wait some more.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  2. #90722
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Surprising absolutely noone, the jury did not reach a verdict right away. So we all get to hurry up and wait some more.
    They're deciding on 34 counts.

  3. #90723
    https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...im-of-control/

    Lawyers for Rudy Giuliani’s creditors have formally asked his bankruptcy judge to appoint a trustee that would “take control” of the former NYC mayor’s finances, citing the debtor’s “dishonesty,” “incompetence,” and “gross mismanagement” throughout the months-old Chapter 11 proceedings.

    In April, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane warned Giuliani that his creditors’ lawyers had fired a “warning shot across the bow” and could pursue “draconian requests for relief in the future,” including the potential appointment of Chapter 11 bankruptcy trustee. That trustee would be empowered to “manage the affairs of the debtor and make all decisions” about Giuliani’s property and to “propose a plan of reorganization.”

    More recently, the judge remarked that he’s “disturbed about the status of this case” and criticized Giuliani’s “troubling attitude vis-à-vis the law and the court system.”

    Lane’s ominous forecast has panned out, as the Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors has moved for a June 17 hearing to appoint a trustee.

    “The Committee could not agree more with the Court’s statement at the May 14 Hearing, ‘I am disturbed about the status of this case. The question is, as it always is in bankruptcy court, where do we go from here,'” the motion said. “At this point, there is only one right answer to the Court’s question: a trustee must be appointed.”

    It’s clear from the language of the opening lines of the motion that patience has run out.

    “More than five months ago, the Debtor commenced his bankruptcy case. One might ask what he has accomplished during that time. An objective review leads to one conclusion: he has accomplished almost nothing,” the filing said, slamming Giuliani for “filing false and misleading financial reports, delaying the inevitable monetization of his assets, ignoring this Court’s orders, trying to retain professionals and attempting to relitigate the Freeman Judgment,” the $148 million dollar Georgia election workers defamation penalty that sent the former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York into bankruptcy.

    The committee attorneys said multiple “facts” left them no choice but to demand the appointment of a trustee that would “take control of the Debtor’s assets and financial affairs, including those of his wholly-owned businesses.”

    “Here, the facts compel the appointment of a trustee for cause, including (i) dishonesty, (ii) incompetence, (iii) gross mismanagement of the Debtor’s affairs, (iv) inadequate record-keeping and reporting, (v) inappropriate relations between the Debtor and his wholly-owned businesses, (vi) conflicts of interest and (vii) breach of fiduciary duty,” the motion said.

    The attorneys took stock of Giuliani’s recent fake electors felony indictment in Arizona, commenting, “And with Mr. Giuliani, when it rains, it pours,” and noting that he has a $10,000 bond to post.

    In one eye-popping paragraph, the lawyers even stated possible “bankruptcy crimes” warrant investigation, claiming later that Giuliani may be “funneling funds that belong to his creditors to his business and using his business as a personal piggy bank, which is fraudulent”:

    So, where does this leave Mr. Giuliani and his bankruptcy case? Mr. Giuliani is a criminally indicted debtor who claims no income except social security payments. He has been suspended from his job at WABC, and his WABC radio show has been cancelled. The Debtor previously identified this radio show as a source of income for him personally (though he never reported such on monthly operating reports). He has been suspended from the practice of law and thus cannot earn income as a lawyer. He is facing a judgment of $148 million, other claims of many millions more, and self-reports just $10 million of assets. His financial reporting and record-keeping are abysmal, as he commingles his personal affairs with those of his shill businesses. And it follows therefrom that the Debtor cannot find even one accountant willing to work for him. Among other things, the chapter 11 trustee and the Committee will now need to investigate whether the Debtor is liable for bankruptcy crimes through the use of his businesses to divert resources away from his estate and creditors in connection with his purported income that he allegedly never personally received.
    The committee, accusing Giuliani of “egregious spending habits” in the form of some “60 Amazon transactions, charges for entertainment such as Netflix, Prime Video, Kindle, Audible, Paramount+ and Apple services and products and numerous Uber rides,” also called attention to the former mayor’s new “Rudy Coffee” business activities. The lawyers pointed out that a contractual agreement says payments are to be made to Giuliani’s company Giuliani Communications, rather than to Giuliani’s personal bank account.

    “And, surprising exactly no one, the contract for the Debtor’s Rudy Coffee venture, which contract the Debtor entered into postpetition on April 23, 2024, directs all payments (‘80% of the net profit of each sale of Rudy Coffee’) to Giuliani Communication’s bank account, even though the contract appears to be signed by the Debtor in his individual capacity and refers to him in the contract as ‘Rudolph Giuliani, aka Giuliani Communications, LLC,'” the filing said. “The contract also obligates ‘Rudolph Giuliani’ to promote ‘Rudy coffee.'”

    Citing “no confidence” in Giuliani to manage his finances in the proceedings, the committee attached a proposed order for the bankruptcy judge to sign that would appoint a trustee to do so.

    “The chapter 11 trustee shall (i) take control of the companies in which the Debtor holds a controlling ownership interest (the ‘Debtor-Owned Companies’),” the proposed order said in part, adding that the trustee would manage and oversee “all day-to-day operations” of Giuliani’s businesses.

    “Over and over again, the Debtor has shown his preference for delay, diversion and theatrics over progress, rehabilitation and maximization of value for his creditors. His creditors do not need to accept this as their plight, and the Committee refuses to do so,” the motion concluded. “Accordingly, the time has come for the immediate appointment of a chapter 11 trustee to take control of the Debtor’s assets and financial affairs, including his wholly-owned businesses.”

    Read the motion to appoint a trustee here.
    Rudy may be in even more trouble, because you can't try to declare bankruptcy to get out of paying legal obligations, which is not what bankruptcy is for to begin with, and especially not if you're taking all your actual earnings and saying, "I'm not making this money, it's my company that's making this money and consequently you can't take it because it's not mine, it's the company owned by a LLC!"

    Gosh it's going to be funny when America's Mayor ends up broke and in prison.

  4. #90724
    Finding a fascinating defense tactic some online conservatives are posting. "I don't understand the charges/didn't bother to look them up, therefore there is no crime and this entire thing is a sham".

  5. #90725
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    It isn't the first time a Trump has said something with a slip of the tongue that has been a freudian slip but totally what they meant in the long run.
    The Trump Family Crest translates to "saying the quiet part out loud".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Surprising absolutely noone, the jury did not reach a verdict right away. So we all get to hurry up and wait some more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    They're deciding on 34 counts.
    It will take a few days, as each count has to be deliberated on and then voted upon.

  6. #90726
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    They're deciding on 34 counts.
    I feel like some folks expected a verdict right away.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  7. #90727
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I feel like some folks expected a verdict right away.
    Well, we will see this same thing happen Nov 5th. Especially from one certain person that may or may not be on house arrest.

  8. #90728
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I feel like some folks expected a verdict right away.
    /shrug
    Even if the jury believes he's obviously guilty, there's still a lot that they have to do. And I'm sure they know how important this is and don't want to be seen to have fucked it up either way. That's assuming there aren't people in there who won't vote one way or the other for ideological reasons...

  9. #90729
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    Finding a fascinating defense tactic some online conservatives are posting. "I don't understand the charges/didn't bother to look them up, therefore there is no crime and this entire thing is a sham".
    That has been the trump supporter mantra for the last month, claiming they don't know the charges, even though they are in the indictment.

  10. #90730
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    As always, the people who know Trump best believe he is guilty. Such as intentional Trump lawyer Ty Cobb.

    I expect a ‘GUILTY’ verdict, but only because the jury instructions as urged by the [district attorney] and adopted by the judge, over strenuous and well-founded defense objections, virtually require conviction.

    I reach this legal conclusion because of my long expertise as a federal prosecutor and white-collar defense lawyer, my reference for the rule of law, and despite my view that Trump remains the greatest threat to Democracy in our nation’s history.
    What he should have said is "I'm the only lawyer who worked for Trump who isn't disbarred yet. Even Barr got thrown out. Dis Barred? Get it?"

    I do have another quote here.

    THE GREATEST CASE I’VE EVER SEEN FOR RELIANCE ON COUNSEL, AND JUDGE MERCHAN WILL NOT, FOR WHATEVER REASON, LET ME USE THAT AS A DEFENSE IN THIS RIGGED TRIAL. ANOTHER TERM, ADVICE OF COUNSEL DEFENSE!
    "How many cases for 'reliance on counsel' has Trump, famously not a lawyer, been part of?"

    Including this one, I think it might be zero.

    "Why wasn't Trump allowed to use this defense?"

    He's lying. Way back in March he was given the option and chose not to do it.

    The People's motion was filed on February 22, 2024. On March 11, 2024, Defendant served notice that "he does not intend to assert a formal advice-of-counsel defense . . . Accordingly there is no privilege waiver requiring production of communications protected by the attorney-client privilege[.]" Defendant's Notice pg. 2. Thus, this branch of the People's motion is rendered moot. Defendant has unequivocally avowed that he will not rely on the defense.
    One of our smartest and coolest and most handsome posters caught it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    This is a blatant attempt to give the jury a reason to spring him. He's going to blame his lawyers, but in a way that doesn't require them to turn over communications, likely because Trump ordered them to make this go away and he knows that.
    Oh, I also caught it.

    "What was the reasoning? If any exists?"

    You have to assert this defense at the start of the trial, which immediately waives confidentiality. Trump, as expected, is paralyzed with fear that people might learn about the things he said and did.

    As I claimed, Trump tried to say in court "I am not pleading advice of counsel, therefore you don't get my records, but I am pleading advice of counsel, so I am not guilty." That has been rejected by Merchan several times, and likely part of the complicated instructions the jury have. Trump, by virtue of hiding his communications, cannot claim "Cohen told me to do it, you have to take my word, also I didn't take the stand but take my word off the stand anyhow".

    I have another quote--

    "Please, no."

    Okay, Here's a bunch of them instead.

    As a panel of 12 New Yorkers began deliberating their verdict, Donald Trump embarked on a last-gasp effort to temper expectations.

    Before being ushered into his dowdy 15th-floor defendant holding room on Wednesday, Trump approached news cameras and, without pointing to evidence, ran through his greatest hits of trial talking points. It was “weaponization.” It was “all done by Biden.” Trump has “every single legal scholar” backing him up. And even a saint likely wouldn’t escape a conviction in his hush-money payment trial.
    "Every single legal scholar? Does he know about Cobb?"

    I hope so, Trump hired Cobb on purpose. Can you imagine not knowing about the man you hired that's on the news now talking about your case? Trump is mentally retarded, and also might be lying.

    "You can't call him retarded."

    Oh, just wait a couple of paragraphs. Yes, I can.

    “Mother Teresa could not beat these charges,” Trump said to a gaggle of reporters in the hallway. “These charges are rigged. The whole thing is rigged.”

    Trump’s remarks, along with others he made throughout the day in person and in a barrage of posts online, signaled that he has accepted the possibility of a guilty verdict on at least some of the 34 counts brought against him in the Manhattan hush money payment case.

    His team is already preparing to campaign on an acquittal or guilty verdict, according to a person with knowledge of the strategy, with a conviction only further fueling Trump’s claims that he is the victim of a Democratic conspiracy to keep him from returning to the White House. The person was granted anonymity to discuss the matter. Repeatedly, as he awaited news of a verdict, Trump labeled events in and out of the courtroom as “election interference.”

    Moments before the defense, prosecution and reporters scurried back into the courtroom Wednesday afternoon to hear a question from jurors, a Trump fundraising email went out raising a dire possibility for the former president: “PATRIOT - I COULD BE IN JAIL TOMORROW!”
    "Whoa whoa whoa, jail tomorrow? Really? Is that possible?"

    Well, yes, he could commit another crime and--

    "No no, from this current case."

    Oh, no. That's Trump lying again.

    Between Truth Social messages thanking former boxer Mike Tyson for his support and calling actor Robert De Niro a “mentally challenged servant” of President Joe Biden
    See? Totally fair. I believe I have more, stronger, and more public evidence that Trump is "mentally challenged" than the famous actor. Until that changes, I win.

    (De Niro’s press conference the previous day was another example of election interference, Trump said), Trump had posted more than 50 times to his social media on Wednesday about the trial being a sham.

    KANGAROO COURT!” Trump posted while on his way to the courthouse in the morning.

    I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE CHARGES ARE IN THIS RIGGED CASE,” he added after exiting the courtroom midday.

    “According to the Legal Scholars and Experts,” Trump wrote in the afternoon, referring to the conservative legal and political commentators whose opinions he has repeatedly touted, “the Jury Instructions, given by a highly Conflicted Judge, will go down as the most biased and unfair in Judicial History. Biden Witch Hunt. Election Interference!!!”
    "How can Trump not know the charges? He's been in the courtroom every day. And I'm pretty sure 'do you understand the charges?' is asked of every defendant, and Trump would have said yes."

    All of that is true. Trump is mentally retarded, yes I can keep saying that, and is also likely lying.

    Related, I am still waiting on any Trump supporter to demonstrate how Biden is rigging this case. No evidence for such a claim is publicly known.

    "They feel it's true."

    Fuck their feelings.

  11. #90731
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Surprising absolutely noone, the jury did not reach a verdict right away. So we all get to hurry up and wait some more.
    I'm fine with waiting as I am assuming that justice will not be served and I will be mad about it. Of course I would like to be pleasantly surprised though.

    What pisses me off is that nothing notable has happened with the election interference/insurrection stuff.

  12. #90732
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I'm fine with waiting as I am assuming that justice will not be served and I will be mad about it. Of course I would like to be pleasantly surprised though.

    What pisses me off is that nothing notable has happened with the election interference/insurrection stuff.
    Agreed. Fundamentally Trump being a liar and a crook isnt new to anyone. This is just the law catching up with him. Too arrogant to play ball, too old to keep running, too stupid to play smart, pick your reason, the man is 80-something(I cant be assed to look it up again), hes had a good run. Trump being found guilty or innocent in this case wont dramatically shake the foundations or current institutions of this country.

    The other case? Yeah, thats the one that really matters.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  13. #90733
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...-ju-rcna154678

    False reports about the jury instructions in former President Donald Trump's hush money trial have been spreading across right-wing media, leading to threats against the judge overseeing the case.

    Several conservative news personalities, including some affiliated with Fox News, falsely claimed that Judge Juan Merchan, as one Fox News anchor put it in a viral post on X, "told the jury that they do not need unanimity to convict" Trump.

    That's not true. Merchan instructed the jury on Wednesday that they "must conclude unanimously that a defendant conspired to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means," adding that they "need not be unanimous as to what those unlawful means were."

    That means that jurors have to agree unanimously that Trump committed a crime by engaging in a criminal conspiracy to falsify records with the intent to commit one or more other crimes in order to convict him. But jurors can choose from three options about what those other crimes were: violations of the Federal Election Campaign Act; the falsification of other business records; or the violation of tax laws. Those "unlawful means" aren't charges themselves and would not result in separate convictions, so jurors do not have to unanimously agree on them.

    The jury instruction was complex and nuanced and some right-wing accounts ran with false reports.
    Shocking stuff, right wing outlets including Fox are spreading baseless misinformation about the jury instructions and driving the rabid, violent, extremist MAGA base to issue even more death threats.

    In response to inaccurate reporting that Trump could be convicted without unanimous agreement that he committed a crime, one user on Gab, a site popular with far-right extremists, said Wednesday it was "time to find out where that judge lives and protest as the left calls it." Another user posted: "I hear bad stuff happens to judges in their driveways." On Telegram, one user called for "a military tribunal" for Merchan and on the official Telegram channel of Steve Bannon’s WarRoom, a user said Merchan “and all involved” should be hanged.

    Over on another pro-Trump forum, one user said "Merchan wants to be the merchant of death to sell more rope, except he could easily be selling the rope that hangs him.” Another user added: "Treason. With the full penalty."
    I do hope every one of these folks is arrested for their death threats.

    On X, after a right-wing influencer asked followers who among them wanted to see Merchan locked up for treason. Another user who identified himself as a Marine replied: "Let me handle the Justice System & be judge & Prosecutor, Immediate trial & Justifiable Punishments handed out, Funeral Directors get ready for a lot of Democratic Socialist Elites coming your way.”
    Very reasonable and not unhinged and not violently extremist rhetoric in any way!

    Time and time again, legal proceedings in the four cases against Trump have resulted in violent threats and, in at least one case, actual violence. In August, Trump supporters posted the names and addresses of the Fulton County grand jurors who indicted Trump and 18 of his co-defendants. In August 2022, a Jan. 6 participant named Rickey Walter Shiffer posted calls for violence after the FBI searched Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate and then fired a nail gun into an FBI field office in Cincinnati before he was killed by law enforcement.
    MAGA is a terrorist group, change my mind.

  14. #90734
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    MAGA is a terrorist group, change my mind.
    Why would they? They wear it as a badge of honor.

  15. #90735
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    There is no way Trump is capable of bringing Law and Order when he can't Obey the law nor any Order. Honestly there is no clearer case in my opinion of fraud and malfeasants to cover up a pretty immoral act. The fact there is ANY ambiguity about this matter not by typical randoms, but people WHO KNOW BETTER, yeah it's proof to me out Justice system and expectation for ANYONE to ever obey the law ever again is in serious trouble. If Trump gets found NOT GUILTY it will be proof Law and Order doesn't matter and our Justice system is completely broken. If Trump actually could become President again, it means our Country is completely broken and doesn't really exist IMO.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  16. #90736
    https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...e/73895187007/

    Reminder that if your name isn't Donald Trump, MAGA World gives no fucks about you -

    The Arizona Republican Party and the MAGA Nation stand four-square behind Donald Trump’s fake electors … until it’s time to put their money where their mouths are, it seems.

    It’s now been eight days since former state GOP Chairwoman Kelli Ward and her fellow fake elector, husband Michael, put out their tin cup, hoping to rake in donations to pay for a lawyer to defend them against felony charges of fraud, forgery and conspiracy.

    Eight days since they started begging for money, hoping to raise $100,000.

    I don’t know if the rubes are just tapped out, what with snapping up golden “Never Surrender” shoes ($399), God Bless the USA Bibles ($59.99, not including shipping) and a “very limited edition” Trump loyalty card being hawked by RNC Co-Chair Lara Trump (cost unknown but, truly, priceless).

    Heck, even Rudy Giuliani has gotten into the act, selling Rudy Coffee ($29.99 for a two-pound bag), though he’s going to have to sell a lot of beans to pay off his $148 million tab for defamation.

    Wards have raised a fraction of that $100K

    Or it could be that the America First faithful think that a couple that sails their catamaran around the Bahamas doesn’t need to be reaching into MAGA pockets for nickels and dimes.

    Especially as they just put their five-bedroom, four-bath Lake Havasu City home — with an extra bath in the guest house — on the market for just over $2 million.

    Whatever the reason, after a week of rattling their tin cup on GiveSendGo, the Wards have raised just $6,106 toward their goal of $100,000.

    Just 108 people have ponied up, offering donations ranging from a few dollars to a few hundred.

    But what’s most interesting is the names that aren’t listed there among the donors.

    Where are the contributions from Sens. Shawnna Bolick and Wendy Rogers and Sonny Borrelli and all the other Republicans in the Arizona Legislature who signed a “resolution” calling on Vice President Mike Pence and Congress to accept Arizona’s “alternate” electoral votes?

    In all, 29 incoming and outgoing GOP legislators signed that request, calling it “A Joint Resolution of the 54th Legislature” and attaching the state seal so it would look official.

    Though I suppose two of those who signed the resolution — Sens. Jake Hoffman and Anthony Kern — can be excused for not digging deep given that they, too, have been indicted in the fake elector scheme.
    Couldn't happen to worse people. Love to see it.

  17. #90737
    Verdict reached. Place your bets.

  18. #90738
    Verdict withing the next hour by the look of it.

  19. #90739
    the fact they reached it within 2 days tells me in guilty on all (most) counts.
    a not-guilty verdict would have taken a lot more deliberation.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #90740
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Why would they? They wear it as a badge of honor.


    To be clear, that is not a doctored or created image. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cp...ic-terrorists/


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