1. #94061
    The lower chamber of the United States Congress is the House of Representatives. The Senate is the upper chamber.
    “But this isn’t the end. I promise you, this is not the end, and we have to regroup and we have to continue to fight and continue to work day in and day out to create the better society for our children, for this world, for this country, that we know is possible.” ~~Jon Stewart

  2. #94062
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The lower chamber of the United States Congress is the House of Representatives. The Senate is the upper chamber.
    yes, it is. which is the thing i was talking about in the first place when i said "congress in the US doesn't do shit" because i thought it was pretty common parlance to refer to the house as just "congress" and conversely the senate as the senate.
    (like seriously, tomorrow just ask someone you know apropos of nothing "hey what's the other government body that isn't the senate" and i think most people will say "congress" and not "the house of representatives")

    maybe that's a regional thing, or maybe i'm personally insane in some fashion. either way i'm finding this entire digression with multiple of you people seeming like you don't understand what i'm talking about to be utterly baffling and i legit can't tell if you're being obtuse intentionally.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2024-12-23 at 09:36 AM.

  3. #94063
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    jesus of christ, the lower chamber of the congress, the lower house of congress... the house of representatives?
    (wait, are people not aware of the names of... you know what, fuck it, i find this semantic quibbling exceedingly tedious)
    it's 2 in the morning and i'm posting in between late night dungeon runs, i'll take it on as my mistake for any time my fingers type the wrong word in the thought spigot my brain is pouring.

    still though, is it so very much to expect that people can grasp the colloquial use of "congress" to mean... fucking... not-the-senate?
    Don't get your knickers in a twist. I find it odd to refer to the House of Representatives as "the lower chamber". I acknowledge that, at least historically, it's been framed that way, as an analogue to a House of Commons, but "lower chambers" have mostly outgrown their implied status, largely because they're more representative of the population than the so-called "upper chambers".

    More so, the idea that the House of Representatives should be disbanded in favor of the Senate is just fucking wild. Far more people on this forum have argued for the opposite, for abandoning the Senate completely, since its apportionment is representative of States and not the people.

    Personally, I think both should remain, as both forms of representation serve a purpose, but I do feel like some of the power of the Senate should be moved to the House instead, so as to be more controlled by popular demand. And I think the government should increase the size of the House, to dilute the growing power of any one particular Representative (and to help stymie some of the blatant gerrymandering woes).

    The last thing we need is to isolate power into the hands of 100 Senators who grow more out of touch with their constituency with every generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    yes, it is. which is the thing i was talking about in the first place when i said "congress in the US doesn't do shit" because i thought it was pretty common parlance to refer to the house as just "congress" and conversely the senate as the senate.
    Congress is both. House and Senate are singular.

    Edit: Your confusion may come from the fact that members of the Senate are commonly referred to as "Senator" while members of the House of Representatives are commonly referred to as "Congressman"/"Congresswoman"/"Congressperson".
    Last edited by PhaelixWW; 2024-12-23 at 09:39 AM.
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  4. #94064
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    More so, the idea that the House of Representatives should be disbanded in favor of the Senate is just fucking wild. Far more people on this forum have argued for the opposite, for abandoning the Senate completely, since its apportionment is representative of States and not the people.
    huh, who ever suggested that?

    when edge originally said that congress having to pass everything by line-item would stop them from being able to do anything else, i'll confess my brain automatically interpreted that as "the house of representatives" because of what i hope to christ is now an established difference in regional slang but edge hasn't chimed in so who knows what he even meant... but when edge said that, i just asked if they've done anything worth while in the last 60 years and opined that if the body were relegated to just passing everything by line-item, the american populace really wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    you got anything for that?
    or are you also stuck on continuing this now half-a-page little saunter around either bitching about semantics or inventing straw men positions to pontificate about?

    The last thing we need is to isolate power into the hands of 100 Senators who grow more out of touch with their constituency with every generation.
    in a certain way though i think at least in recent decades senators may seem more out of touch with their constituency directly but i'm not entirely certain that's a bad thing and may actually be a good thing, and the evidence for that is the way in which people in the house seem to be more in touch with their constituency and look how well THAT is going.
    ever heard of john bennet or john hickenlooper? if you're not a complete politics nerd, probably not... two senators just being out of touch with the people who voted for lauren boebert.

    Congress is both. House and Senate are singular.
    how are you responding to me with this and it's not some kind of intentional trolling?
    i literally just said... fuck it, why am i typing this. there's no possible explanation for you saying this in response to the text you quoted other than you griefing me, so it's stupid of me to play into it.

    Edit: Your confusion may come from the fact that members of the Senate are commonly referred to as "Senator" while members of the House of Representatives are commonly referred to as "Congressman"/"Congresswoman"/"Congressperson".
    my "confusion" is that every human being i've ever spoken to in my life up until literally tonight has used the terms "congress" and "house of representatives" interchangeably, including on this forum where i've been haggling over politics for nigh on 15 years.

    i'm not above conceding that maybe in the last 3 hours i had a stroke and still don't realize it and my memory of my entire life up until this point is a fabrication of my dying neurons, but i swear to god that is a common colloquialism and you're just fucking with me at this point.

    but yes, to you and shadowferal and whoever else decides to make a thing out of this... my apparently bumpkin ass used the wrong symbol for a thought, sorry for my sins.
    consider me properly chastened and shamed for my ignoble stupidity in having spent 45 years hearing the word 'congress' used to describe the house of representatives and thinking that was commonly accepted slang.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2024-12-23 at 10:18 AM.

  5. #94065
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Anyway, apparently today (or yesterday, I forget) Elon was meeting with Mike Johnson over congressional stuff going forward, even saying that he (Elon) would like to entertain the idea of becoming speaker of the house. Trump was signing MAGA hats.

    People doubted me and it's already begun, lmao.

    Why is Elon, an immigrant civilian who has no security clearance, meeting with the people in the highest rungs of government, ambassadors, etc, planning out the next several months of what he wants to happen, trying to intimidate congress members into falling in line or he'll primary them etc. while Trump signs hats and does photo ops and token speeches. Sure seems to me like people are starting to wake up to who's really running the show now.
    “Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
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  6. #94066
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    huh, who ever suggested that?
    It's been mentioned often enough to make me wonder about the consistency of your "15-year political haggling" history.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    i just asked if they've done anything worth while in the last 60 years and opined that if the body were relegated to just passing everything by line-item, the american populace really wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    you got anything for that?
    The majority of bills are proposed in the House as opposed to the Senate, in party simply due to the larger number of lawmakers in that chamber. Representatives are more in touch with the needs of their constituents than Senators, though neither do nearly well enough of a job at that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    or are you also stuck on continuing this now half-a-page little saunter around either bitching about semantics or inventing straw men positions to pontificate about?
    Bruh. I made one post, plus a one-line question. But sure, blame me for other people pointing out your apparent confusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    in a certain way though i think at least in recent decades senators may seem more out of touch with their constituency directly but i'm not entirely certain that's a bad thing and may actually be a good thing
    There's a reason why I said both are necessary viewpoints.

    But you're pretending like direct representation of the population is a bad thing. I confess, that's almost refreshingly backwards compared to most of the opinions from people on this forum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    how are you responding to me with this and it's not some kind of intentional trolling?
    It's a simple statement of fact. I wasn't harping on it, just pointing it out unambiguously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    my "confusion" is that every human being i've ever spoken to in my life up until literally tonight has used the terms "congress" and "house of representatives" interchangeably, including on this forum where i've been haggling over politics for nigh on 15 years.
    You're hardly the only person to get it wrong. So there's that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    i'm not above conceding that maybe in the last 3 hours i had a stroke and still don't realize it and my memory of my entire life up until this point is a fabrication of my dying neurons, but i swear to god that is a common colloquialism and you're just fucking with me at this point.
    I'm not. Again, it's not a completely uncommon mistake, but it's still wrong, and the subsequent confusion by people on this forum should indicate why that's important to clarify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Why is Elon, an immigrant civilian who has no security clearance, meeting with the people in the highest rungs of government, ambassadors, etc, planning out the next several months of what he wants to happen, trying to intimidate congress members into falling in line or he'll primary them etc. while Trump signs hats and does photo ops and token speeches. Sure seems to me like people are starting to wake up to who's really running the show now.
    Can we start reporting this shit as a conspiracy theory yet?
    R.I.P. Democracy


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  7. #94067
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDruid96 View Post
    the Democrats are already trying to illegally sabotage Musk's businesses because they don't like his politics
    What an interesting point from a surely honest and genuine poster. Odd that he hasn't given any evidence of this, despite being asked by other honest and genuine posters.

    You know who else is an honest and genuine poster? @Flarelaine who I'm sure would regard this topic of conversation positively in this fast-moving thread. Surely he has something to say about the illegal efforts by Democrats to sabotage a business due to politics, which for some reason haven't been cited despite asking three days ago.

  8. #94068
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yeah don't care what you said bruv, t
    Really don't give a shit about the thoughts of someone who banged a chick who wrote a paper, BYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEE!

  9. #94069
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Why is Elon, an immigrant civilian who has no security clearance, meeting with the people in the highest rungs of government, ambassadors, etc, planning out the next several months of what he wants to happen, trying to intimidate congress members into falling in line or he'll primary them etc. while Trump signs hats and does photo ops and token speeches.
    i have a theory about this actually.
    it all comes down to monarchism, IMO.

    while human civilization doesn't do the divine right of kinds anymore as a matter of course, there's still a terminally malignant cultural tumor of monarchism within all of western society - a repressed and often times unacknowledged belief that one true scion of god is the anointed leader and that kingdoms bowing to their sovereignty is the correct and natural order of things.
    this is why i think fascism is on the rise, because this unprocessed cultural trauma doesn't have any kind of realistic expression in the modern world since the age of monarchies is long past, however there is a repressed but constantly perpetuated need simmering below the surface of much of western culture to make the populace subservient to a single ruler.

    issues of constitutions or laws or traditions, these are minor fabrications of a modern world that have no relevance to the deeply rooted psychosis these people have lurking inside them.
    they don't understand the how or why of what they feel, they only feel literal centuries of resentful cultural teachings pressuring them yearn for a system of governance that no longer exists.
    so when you get shitheads like trump or musk (or any right-wing dickwad in the world right now) rolling up and acting like they're an unchecked king of old they develop a cult of fanatical followers who i'd wager could never articulate why they are slavishly devoted to these nimrods but who will nevertheless empower these purile dorks into positions of great consequence.

  10. #94070
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Can we start reporting this shit as a conspiracy theory yet?
    I don't see how this is conspiracy theory or unfair portrayal of the situation, Musk was on calls with heads of state like Zelensky and he is in meetings that you would in fact need a background check and clearance to be in. He has threatened members of congress with primary challenges if they don't fall in line. You can technically say that Trump is indeed in charge but it's not conspiratorial to think that his level of involvement and influence is disturbing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Frankly I see it as a failure for Trump much more than Elon since he chimed in and put his thumb on the scale. The final bill that passed was missing a lot of Trump's must pass so seeing republicans "standing up" to Trump in this way is puzzling.

    OpenSecrets keeps receipts.

    Of course, that only includes campaign donations, so it won't include other donations/payments by anyone. But there are people on those lists who have donated large amounts in multiple cycles, too, which Elon hasn't.
    Musk build his own political apparatus to elect Trump so it wouldn't be listed on federal donations and that figure is higher than anyone on the list. It is fair to say that we don't know what these people donate in dark money since that's obstructed but the same can be said about Musk. Either way he has taken Trump's victory as his own and republicans are rather confused as to which daddy to follow.

  11. #94071
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    i have a theory about this actually.
    it all comes down to monarchism, IMO.

    while human civilization doesn't do the divine right of kinds anymore as a matter of course, there's still a terminally malignant cultural tumor of monarchism within all of western society - a repressed and often times unacknowledged belief that one true scion of god is the anointed leader and that kingdoms bowing to their sovereignty is the correct and natural order of things.
    I don't think it's even that specific to Western society.

    I think most people, in general, by dint of being humans and thus social animals, want a leader. Someone who gives direction to the society. More rarely, they want to be that leader.

    Monarchism is just a pretty clear and simple expression of that desire when it comes to societies that are too large for there to be a personal relationship between all members and the monarch, combined with the acknowledgement that the monarch will tend to want the best for their own offspring, thus inheriting the position.

    That's it. We're not that different in this than our cousins in the Great Apes. We just build bigger groups which need leaders with broader reach.

    Even representative systems are more like "let's make a council out of kings we choose so they don't get TOO distant from the local needs". It's not that different, really. Especially since it often still leads to political lineages.

    That desire for leadership is also why cults happen, it's why organized religion is such a mess, etc. People, mostly, want someone else to both tell them what to do and to keep order on their behalf.


  12. #94072
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I don't see how this is conspiracy theory or unfair portrayal of the situation, Musk was on calls with heads of state like Zelensky and he is in meetings that you would in fact need a background check and clearance to be in. He has threatened members of congress with primary challenges if they don't fall in line. You can technically say that Trump is indeed in charge but it's not conspiratorial to think that his level of involvement and influence is disturbing.
    But that's not the claim that's being made. If the claim was "Musk has undue influence on our government", then I'd say it's valid. But the claim is that he's "really running the show now", which is just conspiracy theory garbage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Musk build his own political apparatus to elect Trump so it wouldn't be listed on federal donations and that figure is higher than anyone on the list.
    Let's be clear here: Musk didn't "build" anything. He just took the guard rails off and invited in the deplorables. Political "influencers" existed on Twitter (and other platforms) long before Musk bought Twitter, he just boosted the signal a bit.

    But you can make the same claim about Rupert Murdoch and others who use their own slew of media channels/websites to spread their particular slant of bias.


    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Either way he has taken Trump's victory as his own and republicans are rather confused as to which daddy to follow.
    This position I won't argue with at all. Either statement. Musk is a dweeb narcissist LARPing as a glorious leader and MAGA cultists are lemmings just looking for someone to point the way to the nearest cliff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That desire for leadership is also why cults happen, it's why organized religion is such a mess, etc. People, mostly, want someone else to both tell them what to do and to keep order on their behalf.
    Most of human sociology boils down to humanity's innate desire to belong, and to believe that the group to which we belong is ascendant. People will go to extraordinary lengths and justify a litany of sins in order to accomplish those two things.

    Reading on the formation of gangs, in particular, is a fascinating glimpse into this process.
    R.I.P. Democracy


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  13. #94073
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    There's a reason a lot of this shit gets bundled together, actually many. Including simple practicality - trying to pass everything by line-item would leave Congress with little time to do anything else during a given session.

    That's not anything to be happy about if you actually care about lawmakers doing the important work of lawmaking, which they've not been doing much of as of late and which has shown given the gross lack of proper legislative privacy protections online and in safeguards and AI regulation as other developed nations with (slightly more) functional lawmaking bodies have been doing.
    The hard reality is that very few clean bills could have passed on their own merits. The US is composed of states and territories. Each one consists of counties and cities with their own individual interests. The typical clean bills would only benefit a few of these entities. Very few benefit all of them at the same time.

    The best example would be the Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore.

    Another one would be Presidio Park. It is owned and operated by the Federal Government. However, any funding for park improvements would only benefit the City of San Francisco. Many representatives will not vote for that.

    That's why it is easier to combine a bunch of them into a single bill. Ultimately, your typical funding bills are compromised bills. You give a little and get a little.

    Reps like McConnel and Pelosi brought so much funding to their respective states and, in Pelosi's case, City/County, they will never get voted out.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2024-12-23 at 05:58 PM.

  14. #94074
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    But that's not the claim that's being made. If the claim was "Musk has undue influence on our government", then I'd say it's valid. But the claim is that he's "really running the show now", which is just conspiracy theory garbage.
    Meh It's a bit of fun mixed with some seriousness frankly the narrative seems to really get under the skin of MAGA.

    Let's be clear here: Musk didn't "build" anything. He just took the guard rails off and invited in the deplorables. Political "influencers" existed on Twitter (and other platforms) long before Musk bought Twitter, he just boosted the signal a bit.
    The figure doesn't include the value of turning twitter into a Trump propaganda machine, he created a company they had door knockers, registering voters, mailing list and he had that stunt where he gave away money to voters in swing states. There were investigations on the legality of that stunt not sure if that's going anywhere now that Trump has won.

  15. #94075
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Sure seems to me like people are starting to wake up to who's really running the show now.
    Not Democrats, which is what people clearly voted for.

  16. #94076
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Not Democrats, which is what people clearly voted for.
    People didn't vote for Elon, either. I recall a lot of complaining about unelected bureaucrats from Republicans, so it's weird seeing them functionally cheer one one who's actually just self interested, too.

  17. #94077
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Not Democrats, which is what people clearly voted for.
    Oh, clearly.



    That <1.5% margin and <50% vote count sure scream Trump mandate, don't they?
    R.I.P. Democracy


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  18. #94078
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Not Democrats, which is what people clearly voted for.
    Imagine for a minute that when Obama got elected in 2008 and George Soros got on phone calls with world leaders, threatening members of congress with primaries and all the things Elon has been doing publicly. You guys made Soros into a nightmare boogeyman and he barely appears publicly but are celebrating Elon for obvious corrupt behavior.

  19. #94079
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Imagine for a minute that when Obama got elected in 2008 and George Soros got on phone calls with world leaders, threatening members of congress with primaries and all the things Elon has been doing publicly. You guys made Soros into a nightmare boogeyman and he barely appears publicly but are celebrating Elon for obvious corrupt behavior.
    Elon benefits from the fact that he is not Jewish, you see.

  20. #94080
    The Lightbringer tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    ..... fine. the last 58 years.
    also i'd argue that like the civil rights act, every piece of legislation anyone has mentioned thus far could be classified as an entirely presidential agenda, pushed for and largely spearheaded by the executive branch as a specific part of their campaign policy, and more or less foisted on congress.

    point is, congress in the US doesn't do shit and it isn't essential for anything. if it was completely nullified and its nominal functional duties moved elsewhere (senate or executive branch) there would be no difference to the american populace.
    This is an underrated comment. Congress ought to be more independent from the Executive, and fund or defund departments as part of both their oversight and their independent check on the Executive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    jesus of christ, the lower chamber of the congress, the lower house of congress... the house of representatives?
    Lower house is used more frequently, but lower chamber is also fine and unambiguous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    yes, it is. which is the thing i was talking about in the first place when i said "congress in the US doesn't do shit" because i thought it was pretty common parlance to refer to the house as just "congress" and conversely the senate as the senate.
    Also very common usage, but a little ambiguous, since Congress can also mean both. Congress, congressmen, congressional representative, congressional districts. (Not that you need to be told this. "Congress is deadlocked" is so frequently used to refer to the House being deadlocked Ex.)
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

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