1. #94861
    Quote Originally Posted by Roneth View Post
    Out of curiosity, why do people get infractions for saying Trump derangement syndrome, but maga cultist trolling is okay? Is it the selective moderation here like meta is doing away with?
    The key difference between you telling people they have "TDS" and what you quoted, is that only one of you is directing what you're saying actually at a poster.

    Also, are you suggesting that this site and Meta only moderate right wing people? That would be laughable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roneth View Post
    I'm going to get infracted and banned again for all of this anyways.
    Yeah, probably. Not because you're being persecuted or something, but because this forum doesn't seem to allow for actually discussing moderation in threads like this. You are not a victim. There are no double standards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Glad the incoming president is all amount empathy, and helping people, and definitely not about himself, or making tragedy political.



    ... oh.

    On a different note, it seems Trump's promise of ending the Russia/Ukraine conflict in 24 hours, even before his inauguration, now has a timetable of maybe being in the first 100 days in office. El Oh fucking El.
    Last edited by En Sabah Nur; 2025-01-13 at 10:46 AM.

  2. #94862
    Quote Originally Posted by Roneth View Post
    Out of curiosity, why do people get infractions for saying Trump derangement syndrome, but maga cultist trolling is okay? Is it the selective moderation here like meta is doing away with?
    Because one is real and the other is fake. Conspiracy theories aren't allowed on this forum.

  3. #94863
    Quote Originally Posted by Odinfrost View Post
    The following is obviously satire due to who posted it.



    But if it didn't say "The Misinformer" at the top, would any of us really be that surprised he would have said that?
    He would have stopped it by raking the forest.

    Much like Dark Helmet found Lonestar by combing the desert.

  4. #94864
    Titan Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Because one is real and the other is fake. Conspiracy theories aren't allowed on this forum.
    This isn't true. Per one of our blue mods during the reign of Thwart, they are allowed as long as the person truly believes them.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  5. #94865
    Quote Originally Posted by thesilentmajority View Post
    Must not live in a liberal state
    What do you mean?

    And yes, this thread is from his first term. That is how linear time does work, it remained active during the criminal and civil investigations and trials.

  6. #94866
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'm agnostic. California might do a piss-poor job of coping with natural disasters, but the current crop of politicians find some people in Florida to point at and say they're doing worse. Florida can also completely drop the ball on natural disasters, but point at California as proof that at least they aren't that level of obscenely incompetent. I don't privilege CA or FL for being unique to point the finger elsewhere when someone asks about their own disaster response.
    Was the State’s and City of LA’s response to the wildfire perfect? Obviously not. However, calling it piss-poor is highly exaggerated. Several things to considers.

    The wind combined with the terrain created very difficult firefighting conditions. Steep canyons with heavy vegetation limit access to fight the fires directly. The firefighters were constrained to areas adjacent to roads/trails which could be accessed by the fire engines. By that time the fires were actually burning homes. The 100-mph wind grounded the most potent weapon - aerial firefighting fleet - that the State has for the first two days of the fires.

    The nature of the fire in unique. Cal Fire is used to fighting wildland fires. Here they were dealing with a mix of dense urban and wild land fires. I think the last time we saw something of similar scale was the Witch Creek fire in 2007. Even that pales in comparison to this. The same with Paradise and Lahaina. They don't even come close. I don’t think we have ever seen a wildfire event in such a dense urban environment within my lifetime. Closest I can think of is the 1906 San Francisco fire. Feel free to correct me.

    Once a fire moves into an urban area, house to house ignitions becomes the biggest concern. Free-standing single-family homes—compared to row homes, which often share walls with neighboring buildings—can be especially vulnerable to fires because of how many exterior-facing walls they have and the number of different points where a fire can catch. Those palm trees you see in many TV shows about LA are perfect fuel for wildfires.

    Unfortunately, municipal water system designed to deal with fighting dozen of house fires simply can’t cope with hundreds of homes burning at the same time. Nobody probably even considered something like this when they designed the Pacific Palisade water system in the 1970s.

    The timing with Santa Ynez repair was unfortunate.

    I would like to point out that acreage wise, the fires are not even close to breaking any records. Last year 1.5 million acres Texas wild fires dwarfed the LA fires in term of magnitude. The difference is that the ones in Texas burned farms, live stocks, and small towns. While the fires in LA burned tens of thousands of multi-million-dollar homes/structures owned by high-profile movie stars and financiers.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2025-01-13 at 07:27 PM.

  7. #94867
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Was the State’s and City of LA’s response to the wildfire perfect? Obviously not. However, calling it piss-poor is highly exaggerated. Several things to considers.

    The wind combined with the terrain created very difficult firefighting conditions. Steep canyons with heavy vegetation limit access to fight the fires directly. The firefighters were constrained to areas adjacent to roads/trails which could be accessed by the fire engines. By that time the fires were actually burning homes. The 100-mph wind grounded the most potent weapon - aerial firefighting fleet - that the State has for the first two days of the fires.

    The nature of the fire in unique. Cal Fire is used to fighting wildland fires. Here they were dealing with a mix of dense urban and wild land fires. I think the last time we saw something of similar scale was the Witch Creek fire in 2007. Even that pales in comparison to this. The same with Paradise and Lahaina. They don't even come close. I don’t think we have ever seen a wildfire event in such a dense urban environment within my lifetime. Closest I can think of is the 1906 San Francisco fire. Feel free to correct me.

    Once a fire moves into an urban area, house to house ignitions becomes the biggest concern. Free-standing single-family homes—compared to row homes, which often share walls with neighboring buildings—can be especially vulnerable to fires because of how many exterior-facing walls they have and the number of different points where a fire can catch. Those palm trees you see in many TV shows about LA are perfect fuel for wildfires.

    Unfortunately, municipal water system designed to deal with fighting dozen of house fires simply can’t cope with hundreds of homes burning at the same time. Nobody probably even considered something like this when they designed the Pacific Palisade water system in the 1970s.

    The timing with Santa Ynez repair was unfortunate.

    I would like to point out that acreage wise, the fires are not even close to breaking any records. Last year 1.5 million acres Texas wild fires dwarfed the LA fires in term of magnitude. The difference is that the ones in Texas burned farms, live stocks, and small towns. While the fires in LA burned tens of thousands of multi-million-dollar homes/structures.
    See, you write all those things, but you're not blaming the Democrats, and that's all tehdang cares about.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  8. #94868
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    See, you write all those things, but you're not blaming the Democrats, and that's all tehdang cares about.
    So tehdang is just a Murc's Law supporter?

  9. #94869
    The Lightbringer tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    You've still yet to actually point to any incompetence in the handling of this historically unprecedented firestorm, just kind of vaguely gestured at the state and blamed the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    And yet, you've not actually managed to point to a single actual example of Incompetence, let alone obscene Incompetence, which could be directly or indirectly attributed to the Government of the State in it's handling of the current situation in California..... just vague hand waving in their general direction while mumbling about how there obviously must be incompetence over there somewhere, if you squint really hard, maybe, sort of, surely.

    Obscene Incompetence would be something like the Trump administration's response to the covid pandemic. THAT would be obscene Incompetence. Not attempting to blame 60 year old water infrastructure in an affluenza neighbourhood being unable to keep up with suddenly being stressed far beyond it's capabilities to supply water on the Governor of California.
    Replying to:
    May as well blame Florida for being in the path of hurricanes.

    Welcome to the consequences of climate change that Republicans still regularly deny is a thing that exists, natural disasters can and are getting worse. As we're seeing.
    With:
    I'm agnostic. California might do a piss-poor job of coping with natural disasters, but the current crop of politicians find some people in Florida to point at and say they're doing worse. Florida can also completely drop the ball on natural disasters, but point at California as proof that at least they aren't that level of obscenely incompetent. I don't privilege CA or FL for being unique to point the finger elsewhere when someone asks about their own disaster response.
    When I say it's futile to point fingers back and forth, hurricane to forest fire or whatnot, I wasn't expecting to be asked to do that exact thing right after posting that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Was the State’s and City of LA’s response to the wildfire perfect? Obviously not. However, calling it piss-poor is highly exaggerated. Several things to considers.

    The wind combined with the terrain created very difficult firefighting conditions. Steep canyons with heavy vegetation limit access to fight the fires directly. The firefighters were constrained to areas adjacent to roads/trails which could be accessed by the fire engines. By that time the fires were actually burning homes. The 100-mph wind grounded the most potent weapon - aerial firefighting fleet - that the State has for the first two days of the fires.

    The nature of the fire in unique. Cal Fire is used to fighting wildland fires. Here they were dealing with a mix of dense urban and wild land fires. I think the last time we saw something of similar scale was the Witch Creek fire in 2007. Even that pales in comparison to this. The same with Paradise and Lahaina. They don't even come close. I don’t think we have ever seen a wildfire event in such a dense urban environment within my lifetime. Closest I can think of is the 1906 San Francisco fire. Feel free to correct me.

    Once a fire moves into an urban area, house to house ignitions becomes the biggest concern. Free-standing single-family homes—compared to row homes, which often share walls with neighboring buildings—can be especially vulnerable to fires because of how many exterior-facing walls they have and the number of different points where a fire can catch. Those palm trees you see in many TV shows about LA also provide fuel for wildfires.

    Unfortunately, municipal water system designed to deal with fighting dozen of house fires simply can’t cope with hundreds of homes burning at the same time. Nobody probably even considered something like this when they designed the Pacific Palisade water system in the 1970s.

    The timing with Santa Ynez repair was unfortunate.
    I phrased it as a hypothetical to respond to someone likening it to blaming Florida for hurricanes.

    Santa ana winds and dry conditions are regular, and particularly bad seasons are predictable. I say predictable in the sense that we've seen strong santa ana winds before, so ones that are 20% stronger could and do happen. So when you have a local reservoir down for a year, was there any notification or plan to cope with 117 million gallons missing, should the worst happen? This is in addition to any other conditions that made firefighting efforts less effective, which we should learn more about soon.

    I'm sure you know that part of the battle is slowing the progress in order to save lives and help people evacuate. I'm also yielding that multiple causes could have contributed to a lack of water pressure at the hydrants. The progress of a fire in these conditions isn't the shocking thing to me; it is specifically firefighting crews unable to use hydrant sources at early stages in the fire. If that was always known, why wasn't there a plan in place to deal with that possibility? We didn't actually freeze firefighting science in 1970s, and inform residents that firefighters would be out of water hydrant support in potentially a single day of efforts. I'm sure you saw that Rick Caruso brought in private firefighters to save his Palisades mall. It still stands.

    Let's see the fire chiefs, the mayor, and DWP officials asked about special measures for when santa ana winds make firefighting difficult, or for when your hundred million gallon reservoir is offline, and you only have million-gallon tanks. Then more focus on controlled burns and brush clearing (mostly federal), instead of spending hundreds of million dollars on planning procedures that take 3-7 years prior to execution.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  10. #94870
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Santa ana winds and dry conditions are regular, and particularly bad seasons are predictable. I say predictable in the sense that we've seen strong santa ana winds before, so ones that are 20% stronger could and do happen. So when you have a local reservoir down for a year, was there any notification or plan to cope with 117 million gallons missing, should the worst happen? This is in addition to any other conditions that made firefighting efforts less effective, which we should learn more about soon.

    I'm sure you know that part of the battle is slowing the progress in order to save lives and help people evacuate. I'm also yielding that multiple causes could have contributed to a lack of water pressure at the hydrants. The progress of a fire in these conditions isn't the shocking thing to me; it is specifically firefighting crews unable to use hydrant sources at early stages in the fire. If that was always known, why wasn't there a plan in place to deal with that possibility? We didn't actually freeze firefighting science in 1970s, and inform residents that firefighters would be out of water hydrant support in potentially a single day of efforts. I'm sure you saw that Rick Caruso brought in private firefighters to save his Palisades mall. It still stands.

    Let's see the fire chiefs, the mayor, and DWP officials asked about special measures for when santa ana winds make firefighting difficult, or for when your hundred million gallon reservoir is offline, and you only have million-gallon tanks. Then more focus on controlled burns and brush clearing (mostly federal), instead of spending hundreds of million dollars on planning procedures that take 3-7 years prior to execution.
    I will repeat, the fires were unprecedented. The last time we saw an urban fire of this magnitude was after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. Very few municipal water systems are designed to supply water to combat hundreds of fires at the same time. The same scenario would have happened if the fires had occurred in Dallas or Austin.

    There are a few exceptions. Such as San Francisco which has a system independent of the municipal water system which consists of 222 underground cisterns and three reservoirs strategically situated throughout the city dedicated to special high-pressure fire hydrants. This is a legacy of the 1906 earthquake. Keeping in mind Los Angeles County has a land area of 80 times that of San Francisco.

    I do recall hearing that in the 60s and 70s, LAFD fire marshals used to patrol and write citations for properties that they considered to be fire hazards. They probably should revive that practice. Also construct trails into the canyons and start rotation clearing of the vegetation and use drones to map the heavy vegetation areas of concerns. Not sure if that is realistic considering the size of LA.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2025-01-13 at 09:01 PM.

  11. #94871
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I will repeat, the fires were unprecedented.
    Like, this is so basic that I don't for one hot second believe anyone bitching about it actually believes their own schtick.

    You don't plan around handling 100-year+ events. That would mean over-spending the rest of the time, building capacity that might be used, on average, once a century or so. It's the same for hurricanes, it's the same for floods, it's the same for tornadoes, etc. You plan for regular events, maybe up to decadal strengths. Beyond that, and the over-investment becomes impossible to politically justify. Whether it's even financially justifiable is questionable and will generally depend on the specifics.

    But, if you're a perpetual bellyacher, you get to be "right" in the wrong way every time. You're either "correct" that money was spent for years in preparation of a problem that didn't present itself, or you're "correct" that spending was insufficient to handle a major century-level event. Which isn't a coherent position; it's Schrodinger's Whine. You're gonna whine, just like how the isotope will decay, but whether you're bitching about over-spending or under-spending depends on what the issue is and who's your political enemy.

    It's just straight-up dishonest, seeking the veneer of validity retroactively. But they were always gonna condemn the status quo.


  12. #94872
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like, this is so basic that I don't for one hot second believe anyone bitching about it actually believes their own schtick.

    You don't plan around handling 100-year+ events. That would mean over-spending the rest of the time, building capacity that might be used, on average, once a century or so. It's the same for hurricanes, it's the same for floods, it's the same for tornadoes, etc. You plan for regular events, maybe up to decadal strengths. Beyond that, and the over-investment becomes impossible to politically justify. Whether it's even financially justifiable is questionable and will generally depend on the specifics.

    But, if you're a perpetual bellyacher, you get to be "right" in the wrong way every time. You're either "correct" that money was spent for years in preparation of a problem that didn't present itself, or you're "correct" that spending was insufficient to handle a major century-level event. Which isn't a coherent position; it's Schrodinger's Whine. You're gonna whine, just like how the isotope will decay, but whether you're bitching about over-spending or under-spending depends on what the issue is and who's your political enemy.

    It's just straight-up dishonest, seeking the veneer of validity retroactively. But they were always gonna condemn the status quo.
    Nicely stated. Also, as an engineer, I would like to add that it is very difficult, not to mention costly, to retroactively fix issues associated with existing structures/systems which were constructed based on design parameters which are now outdated. The current Florida condo crisis is a perfect example.

  13. #94873
    The Lightbringer tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I will repeat, the fires were unprecedented. The last time we saw an urban fire of this magnitude was after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. Very few municipal water systems are designed to supply water to combat hundreds of fires at the same time. The same scenario would have happened if the fires had occurred in Dallas or Austin.

    There are a few exceptions. Such as San Francisco which has a system independent of the municipal water system which consists of 222 underground cisterns and three reservoirs strategically situated throughout the city dedicated to special high-pressure fire hydrants. This is a legacy of the 1906 earthquake. Keeping in mind Los Angeles County has a land area of 80 times that of San Francisco.

    I do recall hearing that in the 60s and 70s, LAFD fire marshals used to patrol and write citations for properties that they considered to be fire hazards. They probably should revive that practice. Also construct trails into the canyons and start rotation clearing of the vegetation and use drones to map the heavy vegetation areas of concerns. Not sure if that is realistic considering the size of LA.
    I guess we're done here, since this is just repetition of "unprecedented." It's possible to hold two different thoughts in your head at the same time. The first is that the combination of santa ana winds, terrain, lack of brush (fuel) removal, and lack of controlled burns made some losses inevitable. The second is that budgetary and emergency management showed both a lack of leadership, and spawn very tough questions for both leadership and communication. The start of acknowledging the second point should be that you stated, incorrectly, that all the reservoirs were full at the time of the fire. But I'm having trouble understanding you beyond some simplistic point that the rarity and severity of conditions is of a comparatively bigger scale than existing bureaucratic and leadership failures.

    I should remark that it's a nice joke about "Newsom should have asked me," when I directed you to his investigation, because I think that's the only acknowledgement you've given thus far aside from "Obviously not [perfect response]."
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  14. #94874
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like, this is so basic that I don't for one hot second believe anyone bitching about it actually believes their own schtick.

    You don't plan around handling 100-year+ events. That would mean over-spending the rest of the time, building capacity that might be used, on average, once a century or so. It's the same for hurricanes, it's the same for floods, it's the same for tornadoes, etc. You plan for regular events, maybe up to decadal strengths. Beyond that, and the over-investment becomes impossible to politically justify. Whether it's even financially justifiable is questionable and will generally depend on the specifics.

    But, if you're a perpetual bellyacher, you get to be "right" in the wrong way every time. You're either "correct" that money was spent for years in preparation of a problem that didn't present itself, or you're "correct" that spending was insufficient to handle a major century-level event. Which isn't a coherent position; it's Schrodinger's Whine. You're gonna whine, just like how the isotope will decay, but whether you're bitching about over-spending or under-spending depends on what the issue is and who's your political enemy.

    It's just straight-up dishonest, seeking the veneer of validity retroactively. But they were always gonna condemn the status quo.
    Hey, remember how Trump in his first term dismantled the pandemic response team? Because he didn't see the point in keeping something like that around for such a rare event?

    That's the conservative way. That's the side that tehdang is on. That's the level of dishonesty we're talking about here. I bet if we dig back far enough, we can find a post from him cheering on the reduction of that kind of "waste".
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  15. #94875
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    Hey, remember how Trump in his first term dismantled the pandemic response team? Because he didn't see the point in keeping something like that around for such a rare event?

    That's the conservative way. That's the side that tehdang is on. That's the level of dishonesty we're talking about here. I bet if we dig back far enough, we can find a post from him cheering on the reduction of that kind of "waste".
    Oh, obviously the same guy railing against regulations whenever politically convenient elsewhere will now find every possible avenue of attack to say the State, or whichever other entity is controlled by said political opponents, failed by not regulating the ever loving shit out of every element of the current situation.

    The fires are an excuse. Political tit for tat is plainly all he cares about. Par for the course.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  16. #94876
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I guess we're done here, since this is just repetition of "unprecedented." It's possible to hold two different thoughts in your head at the same time. The first is that the combination of santa ana winds, terrain, lack of brush (fuel) removal, and lack of controlled burns made some losses inevitable. The second is that budgetary and emergency management showed both a lack of leadership, and spawn very tough questions for both leadership and communication. The start of acknowledging the second point should be that you stated, incorrectly, that all the reservoirs were full at the time of the fire. But I'm having trouble understanding you beyond some simplistic point that the rarity and severity of conditions is of a comparatively bigger scale than existing bureaucratic and leadership failures.

    I should remark that it's a nice joke about "Newsom should have asked me," when I directed you to his investigation, because I think that's the only acknowledgement you've given thus far aside from "Obviously not [perfect response]."
    Obviously, there are always lessons to be learned from any natural disaster response. Especially something of this magnitude.

    We learned that we have become overly dependent on using airplanes and helicopters to do our firefighting. With good reasons mind you. Many of California fires are inaccessible by conventional methods of ground transportation. Regardless, we need an alternative when they are grounded.

    We need to implement a separate system for fire hydrants. We can't depend on municipal water which are generally only overdesigned by 40%. It will be expensive as hell, but worth it in the long run.

    More aggressive fire marshal inspection system. I can't speak for other areas of CA, but in San Diego, our properties were inspected annually.

    Better access into canyons and monitoring of underbrush growth. Develop brush clearing rotation.

    Improved fire codes for new developments. Especially those located within the urban/wildland interface. CA needs to stop letting developers dictate their building policies.

    That's called lessons learned. The underlying issues are much greater than one individual. Pointing fingers is a waste of time.

  17. #94877
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Welp, despite a failed last minute attempt by Trump to prevent its release, the first half of the Special Counsel's Report was handed over to Congress by Merrick Garland and subsequently released to the public shortly after the midnight release deadline.

    Read Up: Jack Smith's Special Counsel Report on Trump's Election Case
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  18. #94878
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Jack Smith's report believes it was confident it would have secured a conviction in court, had Trump not been elected president. Trump was able to delay, deny, depose and run out the clock to once again escape the repercussions of our criminal system, which has failed. Just delayed is justice denied.

    We're going to have a literal felon rapist as president, one who very deliberately attempted to dismantle our democracy to his own benefit.

    Who wants to bet on how many more crimes he will commit while in office this time? Or maybe he'll just dismantle our entire system completely. The faith in our justice system has already been shattered.
    “Terrible things are happening outside. Poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. Families are torn apart. Men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.”
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  19. #94879
    Quote Originally Posted by En Sabah Nur View Post
    The key difference between you telling people they have "TDS" and what you quoted, is that only one of you is directing what you're saying actually at a poster.

    Also, are you suggesting that this site and Meta only moderate right wing people? That would be laughable.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Yeah, probably. Not because you're being persecuted or something, but because this forum doesn't seem to allow for actually discussing moderation in threads like this. You are not a victim. There are no double standards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Glad the incoming president is all amount empathy, and helping people, and definitely not about himself, or making tragedy political.



    ... oh.

    On a different note, it seems Trump's promise of ending the Russia/Ukraine conflict in 24 hours, even before his inauguration, now has a timetable of maybe being in the first 100 days in office. El Oh fucking El.
    Trump's hallmark of casual cruelty. Looks like the condition is contagious.

    Trump has long threatened to withhold California fire aid. Now Republicans in Congress are, too
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2025-01-14 at 07:46 AM.

  20. #94880
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Jack Smith's report believes it was confident it would have secured a conviction in court, had Trump not been elected president. Trump was able to delay, deny, depose and run out the clock to once again escape the repercussions of our criminal system, which has failed. Just delayed is justice denied.

    We're going to have a literal felon rapist as president, one who very deliberately attempted to dismantle our democracy to his own benefit.

    Who wants to bet on how many more crimes he will commit while in office this time? Or maybe he'll just dismantle our entire system completely. The faith in our justice system has already been shattered.
    Fuck everything.

    Someone needs to Luigi Trump.

    And Musk. And Bezos. And Zuck. And Gates. And Soros. And etc
    - Lars

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