Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Malkiah]

You sure seemed interested in calling Project 2025 "crying wolf" during the election.

er, no i wasn't - i was interested in calling project 2025 "not a new threat, just one you people have only become aware of now" during the election, because i firmly believe that a core sickness within US culture is the belief that all of this bullshit with the right is some kind of new emergence of a unique threat, that can be defeated in the short term and everything will go back to normal.

i argue what's happening now is the culmination of the ideology, this isn't an aberration or a new thing, this is the end game they've been actively working towards for at least the last 60 years.
project #### has been a thing the heritage foundation has been doing since the late 70s and some parts or another of it have been used by every republican president, it's been a dark shadow lurking in the background of american politics for decades and i just felt that acting like it was this unprecedented change in the state of things was dangerously naive.

Based on recent events in this fast-moving thread, I think your opinion is called for. Oh, and bear in mind, we have your post history.

i mean sure, you have it, but historically speaking the more partisan among you are utterly incapable of grasping it because you can't see the world except in a binary "pro democrat" or "pro republican" way, and i'm anti-republican but i'm not pro-democrat and that seems to really fuck with some of you.

[Breccia]

i was interested in calling project 2025 "not a new threat, just one you-"

Damn, we were THIS close to a genuine response.

[Cthulhu 2020]

er, no i wasn't - i was interested in calling project 2025 "not a new threat, just one you people have only become aware of now" during the election, because i firmly believe that a core sickness within US culture is the belief that all of this bullshit with the right is some kind of new emergence of a unique threat, that can be defeated in the short term and everything will go back to normal.

i argue what's happening now is the culmination of the ideology, this isn't an aberration or a new thing, this is the end game they've been actively working towards for at least the last 60 years.
project #### has been a thing the heritage foundation has been doing since the late 70s and some parts or another of it have been used by every republican president, it's been a dark shadow lurking in the background of american politics for decades and i just felt that acting like it was this unprecedented change in the state of things was dangerously naive.


i mean sure, you have it, but historically speaking the more partisan among you are utterly incapable of grasping it because you can't see the world except in a binary "pro democrat" or "pro republican" way, and i'm anti-republican but i'm not pro-democrat and that seems to really fuck with some of you.

Of course we know that America has a fascist problem, people were pointing out how imminent the threat actually was since they've only been gradually shifting the political climate. When Trump attached himself to Project 2025 it hurt him huge in the polls, he knew, it, everyone knew it, so he deliberately distanced himself and every conservative claimed that they didn't intend to do project 2025. We knew they were lying, we knew it was an imminent threat, but as soon as he distanced himself his poll numbers went back up. That's the point, it was unpopular among centrists, and some centrists are still denying that it's happening when you can trace every executive order and action taken right to P2025.

Saying that we shouldn't worry about it because it's always been there is unhelpful and frankly head-in-the-sand.

[Malkiah]

Damn, we were THIS close to a genuine response.

not sure what you're angling at here other than you're clearly upset i'm not adhering to your narrative about what you want the discussion to be, sorry.
if you can find an instance of my saying that a doctrine of right wing government reforms either wasn't going to happen or if it did it wouldn't be bad, please quote it for the record and shame me for it... but i simply never said that, at least not to my recollection.

[Edge-]

not sure what you're angling at here other than you're clearly upset i'm not adhering to your narrative about what you want the discussion to be, sorry.
if you can find an instance of my saying that a doctrine of right wing government reforms either wasn't going to happen or if it did it wouldn't be bad, please quote it for the record and shame me for it... but i simply never said that, at least not to my recollection.

so why didn't that happen in 2016?

"project 2025" is just this cycle's revision if the same mass government replacement plan the heritage foundation has been publishing every year since 1981, the only new thing is that this year for some reason the public noticed and decided to shit their pants over it.

why is this the year reality gets unmade?

I'd say this counts, considering we're discussing them trying to "unmake reality" (dismantle the government) in this thread.

[Malkiah]

Saying that we shouldn't worry about it because it's always been there is unhelpful and frankly head-in-the-sand.

but who ever said that? i surely didn't.
my argument is that instead of finding out about p2025 and shitting your pants that the world is going to change you should find out about p2025 and realize it's a part of the world already and hopefully recalibrate your thinking about what politics really means.

look i won't go too far into this because i'm fairly certain that most of my real core views would be violations of the forum rules to honestly express, but suffice to say i'm of the opinion that elections in the US are bullshit as far as being a mean to defeating fascism.
i believe that regressive political and social ideology are an aggressive cancer that can and will eventually destroy human civilization and that the only way to deal with an aggressive cancer is to flood it with poison to weaken it and then excise it from the host entirely.
that means violence, that means revolution, that means political oppression. you can argue with me over whether or not i'm wrong in my assessment and whether or not you can sit back and hide behind constitutional guardrails to protect you from it, but i firmly believe that "just vote for the democrats" is akin to saying "just buy this quartz stone and meditation bead bracelet and it will cure your stomach cancer".

[PhaelixWW]

i'm fairly certain that most of my real core views would be violations of the forum rules to honestly express

Why do people say things like this without realizing that it basically calls out their "real core views" as shitty?

[Malkiah]

I'd say this counts, considering we're discussing them trying to "unmake reality" (dismantle the government) in this thread.

if you'll note in that post itself and in the posts surrounding that discussion i was asking why people thought this was going to be the year that things ramped up in terms of an organized implementation of a specific plan for an ideological restructuring of government, because i didn't really see any evidence at the time that a 2nd trump admin was going to be that organized, and honestly at this point i still don't as of yet - shit like hagseth being confirmed says to me that this is the same clown show idiocy as the last trump admin.
(note there is a difference between "why do you think it's going to happen this year" and "why do you think it's going to happen ever" because i never said it would never happen. of course it will happen. republicans are unmitigated human evil, and there is no endpoint for how much evil they will do, it's only a matter of when)

it's like uh, god how do i describe this so you partisan hacks can get this...
put a firecracker in your palm and light it, but keep your hand open and flat. when that firecracker goes off it's gonna do damage no matter what, right?
now do the same thing, but close your fist tight around it. it's gonna now be much, much worse. same firecracker, but the damage it does changes drastically.

when i read the news i see the trump admin as a firecracker in an open hand, but that's because trump specifically is a fucking idiot and a demagogue and it seems to me that he and those around him are cosplaying fascists more than trying to be fascists.
it's the next republican that scares me, the one that rides the wave of fervent stupidity but actually has their shit together (or at least, a cabinet that has their shit together).

and it's not like i'll be disappointed if trump goes full nazi, and neither will i be smug if this is a repeat of 2016 and it's just retarded all the time, it's not about that at all for me.
make me god emperor and republicans are just gone, destroyed utterly - if ruled the US with an iron fist my first order would be that if you're a republican and you're in government, you're not in government anymore. you can go sit at home and being a stupid piece of shit, but you've proven you can't be trusted with a position of authority in human governance and you don't get to do that anymore.

maybe this all comes down to the fact i have a very anxious and easily upset wife who opens up imgur and sees the panic-bait posts about whatever dumb shit trump said that day and comes to me in tears over how the world is ending and i need to calm her down and make her feel better about things.
maybe in the 8 years i've spent convincing her it's not as bad as some people make it seem i've convinced myself it's not that bad when it really is, i'm fallible so it's certainly possible i accidentally fell for the narrative of the world i lay out for her.
maybe i'm huffing copium in hoping that things manage to hold on long enough so that when the inevitable nazi 2 electric boogaloo administration happens in the US i'll already be dead.

Why do people say things like this without realizing that it basically calls out their "real core views" as shitty?

why do people post replies like this seemingly oblivious to the fact that the forum rules explicitly prohibit even talking about political violence as a tool for social change, and that sometimes in the real world there is literally no other option?

[PhaelixWW]

why do people post replies like this seemingly oblivious to the fact that the forum rules explicitly prohibit even talking about political violence as a tool for social change, and that sometimes in the real world there is literally no other option?

People here talk about real world examples of political violence used as a tool for social change. A lot.

But espousing it as a "core view" is, well, shitty.

So my point stands, but I don't expect you to take up the argument's counter position in deference to the rules.

[gondrin]

So, in a playbook straight out of Elon's ass, there is a memo that basically tells all federal employees, yes all, that they can take a deferred resignation. Meaning they would get paid for 7 months and pretty much not have to do anything.

Yes, it is the exact same memo that Elon used when he bought out Twitter that, after he lost pretty much the vast majority of his staff, he had to rehire a bunch of them back because, you know, a lot of jobs still require human input to do.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...3d54b958&ei=39

Trump admin’s memo to federal employees 'closely mirrors' two-year-old email sent by MAGA ally

After it was announced Tuesday that President Donald Trump's administration is offering nearly 2 million federal workers "the chance to take a 'deferred resignation,'according to NBC News — allowing workers be paid through September — one reporter noted that the message to employees looked familiar.

ABC News White House policy reporter Cheyenne Haslett reported via X: "NEW: The memo sent to government employees this evening offering them buyouts very closely mirrors an email Musk sent to Twitter employees in 2022 — down to the same subject line 'A Fork in the Road.'"

She added, "The 2022 email tells Twitter employees, 'Only exceptional performance will constitute a passing grade.'"

Furthermore, Haslett wrote, "Compare that to memo: 'The federal workforce should be comprised of the best America has to offer. We will insist on excellence at every level...And another similarity: in the same way the OPM [U.S. Office of Personnel Management] memo requires employees to only respond 'Resign' to the email to seal the deal, Musk asked Twitter employees to 'click yes on the link below' if they wanted to stay on at Twitter."

The email continued, "Whatever decision you make, thank you for your efforts to make Twitter successful," Musk wrote in 2022. And this evening, the closing message to government employees by OPM: 'Whichever path you choose, we thank you for your service to The United States of America,'" Haslett noted.

So, it looks like Elon and his cronies have absolutely taken over the OPM because there are multiple people who are now in charge at the OPM, thanks to Trump, that worked for Elon or is connected to him in some way. And these orders literally scream his direct involvement.

Remember, the GOP and the far-right was complaining about unelected officials dictating things. And here is that exact thing happening.

I wonder how bad it will get if all 2 million employees say "Fuck it, I want no part of this" and just take the pay.

[Edge-]

So, in a playbook straight out of Elon's ass, there is a memo that basically tells all federal employees, yes all, that they can take a deferred resignation. Meaning they would get paid for 7 months and pretty much not have to do anything.

Yes, it is the exact same memo that Elon used when he bought out Twitter that, after he lost pretty much the vast majority of his staff, he had to rehire a bunch of them back because, you know, a lot of jobs still require human input to do.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...3d54b958&ei=39



So, it looks like Elon and his cronies have absolutely taken over the OPM because there are multiple people who are now in charge at the OPM, thanks to Trump, that worked for Elon or is connected to him in some way. And these orders literally scream his direct involvement.

Remember, the GOP and the far-right was complaining about unelected officials dictating things. And here is that exact thing happening.

I wonder how bad it will get if all 2 million employees say "Fuck it, I want no part of this" and just take the pay.

nobody wants to actually do any work, rofl. they just copy/paste shit or take work from other people

[gondrin]

why do people post replies like this seemingly oblivious to the fact that the forum rules explicitly prohibit even talking about political violence as a tool for social change, and that sometimes in the real world there is literally no other option?

The thing is, and I've said it in multiple threads, that violence is never the answer until it is required to be. If Trump tries to, and he is attempting, to basically throw out the entire government and install himself as king/dictator/tyrant or whatever you want to call it, there has to be a literal call to action.

And in any sane society, it would be expected otherwise you basically end up with a version of fascist Italy, Nazi Germany or any other country that is run by a despot.

[Malkiah]

People here talk about real world examples of political violence used as a tool for social change. A lot.

But espousing it as a "core view" is, well, shitty.

So my point stands, but I don't expect you to take up the argument's counter position in deference to the rules.

i'm pretty sure i can say this safely:
conservatism, fascism, authoritarianism, monarchism, theocracy... it's all the same in the end, it's all forms of belief and governance that exists because humans got too numerous too fast and advanced too quickly, and our instincts and (for lack of a better term, used as a catch-all for adaptive behaviors) our nature didn't have time to catch up to things and so as a species we do really dumb shit unthinkingly because we have no internal mechanism that can deal with the state of the world.

i do not believe you can defeat these things electorally, that's like getting everyone in the village to vote on whether or not dracula is allowed to kill people.
i believe we should be getting a posse to go stake dracula in the heart.

that is a core view, yes - unrelenting and unrepentant "evil" (subjective, not universally) is sadly like the prime evils in the diablo franchise: you can destroy them, but then they start to reform in hell and will eventually come back, and when they come back you have to destroy them again.
much like in diablo 4 (perhaps ironically) a central plot point here is that too many people have forgotten what it takes to destroy them and are content to sit back and let them run roughshod over society rather than do what is necessary to stop them.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I would love to ask Vance one simple question.

"Did these men that were sentenced have their day in court?"

That is it. If they did, they were not denied any constitutional rights.

I mean, loathe as am I to even give the appearance of supporting JD Vance...but there have been countless examples of people getting their day and court AND having many of their constitutional rights denied.

[Mayhem]

Anger? Sure

Getting in bed with China is another matter. There's a reason why virtually all of China's neighbors hate their guts.

It's like Jane having an argument with her husband, her husband slapping her a few times and then the wife sleeping with Joe next door who beats his own wife and Jane being surprised when Joe ends up beating her to too.

Bad analogy I'm sure.

South America is not going to like the Trump admin that's for sure, and heck I'd be less worried about Trump and more worried by Marco Rubio: Someone that both Trump and Congress trust on the issue.

Uhu, it's not like South American Countries don't already have FTA's with China. Also for many of them China is their main export destination, for example Brazil, Chile, Venezuela, Peru, and Uruguay.

Why would Colombia care about what China does with its neighbors, Colombia is and never will be one of them. If the closer ties with China are not in their favor anymore they can just sever them. China's neighbors can't just pack and move.

[Malkiah]

The thing is, and I've said it in multiple threads, that violence is never the answer until it is required to be.

i'd agree with that, but i'd also posit this: what is the line for 'required'?
you talk about trump and say that's an adequate call, i say that republicans represent a taint on humanity that was born out of the weakness of the union post civil war to utterly destroy the confederacy and everything it stood for and everyone who believed in it.
violence was the answer and it was not applied when it was required to be, and so we as a country let this ideology fester and well... this is just the inevitable result of that.

it's chickens coming home to roost, and if it isn't trump that does it in the next 4 years it'll be the next republican or maybe the one after that, but it's coming sooner or later and i find it frankly pretty gross that the only solution most people can come up with is "vote for democrats"

[gondrin]

I mean, loathe as am I to even give the appearance of supporting JD Vance...but there have been countless examples of people getting their day and court AND having many of their constitutional rights denied.

Thing is, if you get your day in court, your constitutional rights have been upheld because you had a chance to defend yourself. If Vance wants to talk about the people sitting in jail waiting for a court date, sure. They need to reform the court system to allow multiple people to plead together or whatever if they are all charged with the same crimes. This has been an issue for a VERY long time as there are a TON of people sitting in jail waiting for their court date to get in front of a judge to have their case heard.

- - - Updated - - -

i'd agree with that, but i'd also posit this: what is the line for 'required'?
you talk about trump and say that's an adequate call, i say that republicans represent a taint on humanity that was born out of the weakness of the union post civil war to utterly destroy the confederacy and everything it stood for and everyone who believed in it.
violence was the answer and it was not applied when it was required to be, and so we as a country let this ideology fester and well... this is just the inevitable result of that.

it's chickens coming home to roost, and if it isn't trump that does it in the next 4 years it'll be the next republican or maybe the one after that, but it's coming sooner or later.

The line is 2 things. One is when someone actively tries to overthrow a government for their own self-interest or dismantle a government to install a dictatorship that would cause harm to countless people. The other is the extreme version of this like we saw in Nazi Germany when you have a government hell bent on exterminating anyone they consider subhuman. I know Endus has said it. The Confederacy and all its supporters should have been treated like the traitors they are and given the sentence that is given to people that commit that. The death penalty. Pure and simple. It is the only crime that is stated in the Constitution and it comes with a minimum of a life sentence.

I agree that Trump is the latest in a long line. However, Trump literally has no morals so he basically will try to do everything and anything he wants regardless of what Congress wants or the courts say. The checks and balances are literally going to be the front line workers having to put their own well being and livelihood on the line to basically either slow walk what he wants or outright refuse to do them.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Thing is, if you get your day in court, your constitutional rights have been upheld because you had a chance to defend yourself. I

There are more constitutional rights than just the right to defend yourself.

[s_bushido]

I wonder how bad it will get if all 2 million employees say "Fuck it, I want no part of this" and just take the pay.

Why would any of them believe that they'd actually get paid?

[gondrin]

Why would any of them believe that they'd actually get paid?

Because, unlike Twitter, Elon isn't paying with his own money. It would be paid with tax dollars. I'm not saying there wouldn't be a "memo" that stated that "All Severance Packages are to be put on hold" seeing as right now, that is exactly what they are doing with anything related to government, just that when it comes to tax dollars, outside of a few hardliners, most people in government don't really care how much something costs as they aren't the ones paying for it.