Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Rasulis]

i'm not asking what you folks think is wrong with the trump admin, that's blindingly obvious - the big thing i'm super confused about is why anyone thinks this is any different from bush or reagan, both of which were at best equally bad and embarrassing and pathetic and nakedly against the american people and at worst were more effective at it than trump has been, and neither those presidents nor the GOP in general suffered any kind of electoral blowback or cultural loss from it.

Bad comparison.

Reagan economy was considered good. Yes, it was probably the beginning of the economic debacle that we are in now. However, at the time people were mostly happy with their lot.

The same story with Bush Jr. At the time of his re-election in 2004, the economy was also considered good. Signs of what we now referred to as the Great Recession did not appear until late 2005.

[Malkiah]

There are just enough ignorant voters in swing states that vote based off "vibes" who are basically otherwise politically checked out and listen only to news headlines to swing elections back and forth almost every. Single. Time.

*snip the rest for brevity, but not glossing over it*

perhaps we're just looking at this differently and the part i don't get is one of semantics, because on its face i read this post and it seems to directly contradict your previous post i replied to.
but as i think up this reply it occurs to me that perhaps we're looking at very different issues of scale.

the back-and-forth seesaw in US politics is IMO just how US politics works, that's the system operating as normal - to me, the two parties going back and forth on which branch of government in which they have a majority is the expected outcome.
i think fwc just really caught my attention when he said "the GOP is dead" because that sounds exactly like what somewhatconcerned said about the democrats and it sounds equally unreasonable to me.

i've no doubt the republicans will lose one of the chambers in 2026, but i would think that is going to be the case regardless of any factor currently existing in the country right now, they will lose a chamber in 2026 because that was always going to happen no matter what.

i've mentioned this before because i think it's a relevant and important point of context: democrats were in a majority of both chambers for fifty years consecutively from the 30s until the 80s (minus 2 sessions in total during that period) - that strikes me as being a significant electoral pattern.
imagine if democrats had a majority in the house and the senate unbroken from now until 2075.

this flip flopping is just business as usual, if that flip flopping is what you folks are thinking of as a reckoning coming for the GOP then ok at lest i understand now where you're coming from, it just seems to be making a mountain our a molehill.

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Bad comparison.

i will have to disagree here because i don't believe you're being accurate in your representation of people's attitudes about the economy in those periods.
i do agree that the wealthy were pretty happy with the state of things and the upper class considered the economy to be good, and the 80s at least the middle class that was built by the new deal still had its foundations in place, but for anyone not in the top margins it's been a real shit show.

wealth concentration has been continually shifting upwards for decades so yeah the stock market does fine and GDP is adequate, but the real material conditions of an increasingly large swath of the population have been decreasing.
i would posit that this large swath of the population is the bulk of the voting bloc of the GOP - specifically lower class people in economic distress in rustbelt areas.
these idiots have been voting for republicans without fail for 50 years and i can't imagine a scenario where they stop.

[SunspotAnims]

So why should the dems have to say anything more than "Look at these fucking morons. We told you so." They just have to... you know, actually say that. So I'd argue that this has almost nothing to do with the dem's "need to change their values" as it does them adequately mobilizing to communicate how absolutely incompetent the Trump administration has been. And we've got almost two years of this to go before 2026.

I'll push back on this a little bit. It's easy to point out how terrible the GOP is at governing and it likely will cost them electorally just because of how blatantly bad Tump and Musk are for the country, but we're not going to be solving many problems if the two parties are "destroy everything" and "fix what the other guys did". To ultimately kill the MAGA cancer the Dems collectively need to offer an actual alternative vision for the country rather than status quo.

[Malkiah]

I'll push back on this a little bit. It's easy to point out how terrible the GOP is at governing and it likely will cost them electorally just because of how blatantly bad Tump and Musk are for the country, but we're not going to be solving many problems if the two parties are "destroy everything" and "fix what the other guys did". To ultimately kill the MAGA cancer the Dems collectively need to offer an actual alternative vision for the country rather than status quo.

the worry that i have (and this is more broadly philosophical than strictly political) is that this happened 100 years ago when conservatives destroyed the economy and liberals offered up a radical solution (aka the new deal) - and the solution largely worked, and then the people who benefited from it the most turned around and spent the next 100 years voting for people who's entire policy goal was to dismantle it.

"MAGA" is just a modern era fashion trend for a far larger political ideology that has been present in the US since the end of the civil war, one of regressive social and political aims that exists explicitly to destroy the forward advancement of human civilization.

IMO to ultimately kill it, you need to cut it out of the host like the cancer that it is. until we as a society decide "ok if you're a conservative, you get to think that if you want but you don't get to be in government anymore" and bar the entire ideology from participating in the process this is always going to be the state of things.

[SunspotAnims]

Some people are voting for the destruction party because the system isn't working for them, and we can agree it's really dumb to do that because the party is obviously full of vaguely human-shaped tumors and parasites, but the pain of a system that in many ways punishes poverty while welcoming billionaire influence is what drives so many people to destruction. Dems can't run on maintaining a deeply flawed system and expect lasting change, they need to offer an ideal of a better government that more tangibly serves more people.

[Rasulis]

i will have to disagree here because i don't believe you're being accurate in your representation of people's attitudes about the economy in those periods.
i do agree that the wealthy were pretty happy with the state of things and the upper class considered the economy to be good, and the 80s at least the middle class that was built by the new deal still had its foundations in place, but for anyone not on the top margins it's been a real shit show.

wealth concentration has been continually shifting upwards for decades so yeah the stock market does fine and GDP is adequate, but the real material conditions of an increasingly large swath of the population have been decreasing.
i would posit that this large swath of the population is the bulk of the voting bloc of the GOP - specifically lower class people in economic distress in rustbelt areas.
these idiots have been voting for republicans without fail for 50 years and i can't imagine a scenario where they stop.

Reagan was 1981 - 1989. I was going to school at U.C. Berkeley. My yearly tuition started less than $1,000 per year and was a little over $1,000 when I completed my grad degree in 1987.

1975-76: Annual tuition and fees for resident UC undergraduates total $630. Annual tuition and fees for nonresident UC undergraduates total $2,130.

1985-86: Annual tuition and fees for resident UC undergraduates total $1,296. Annual tuition and fees for nonresident UC undergraduates total $5,112.

The Reagan era was the end of the golden era where you could obtain higher education at minimal cost. Rent was also still cheap compared to income. 3bdr apartment in Berkeley was $500 - $800. Housing price was relatively affordable. I bought a 3 bdr/2bath condo in Mission Bay, San Diego in 1989 for around $60,000.

Bush presided during a period of the highest home ownership in the US. Which was his campaign promise. The Whitehouse page during Bush presidency.

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archi...ent/chap7.html

It was working. At least until the recession hit. Yes, the recession was directly the result of Bush's housing policy. However, by the time the public got smacked in the face with the facts, he was already re-elected.

[Malkiah]

Dems can't run on maintaining a deeply flawed system and expect lasting change, they need to offer an ideal of a better government that more tangibly serves more people.

do you believe that is something the dems want though? lasting change i mean, and a better government that more tangibly serves more people.
i've never seen evidence of this in my lifetime, dems have always been the party of... throwing juuuuust enough scraps to the proles that they don't rise up, and absolutely no more than that.

i don't think that there is a political project in the US that aims to serve more people, it's just not a choice that we have.

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It was working.

for some people, is my point.
it's awesome that you were one of the people it was working for, but don't mistake your good fortune with the general state of the populace.
the golden era you're describing was a boon for the largest percentage of the population that has historically experienced a boon period, this is absolutely true... but that was only like 35% of the US population at the peak of that era.

my point is not that some people weren't doing well, and my point is not that the most amount of people who ever did well at the same time weren't doing well, my point is that none of the people who were doing well are the die hard unshakeable voting base of the GOP so it's irrelevant to this specific point.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

so how does that result in 2026 or 2028 being different in terms of electoral politics?
this is the part i don't get, why anyone thinks that some kind of great push back against republicans is coming.

Generally speaking, midterm elections tend to go against the party that holds the Oval Office.

[NED funded]

Some people are voting for the destruction party because the system isn't working for them, and we can agree it's really dumb to do that because the party is obviously full of vaguely human-shaped tumors and parasites, but the pain of a system that in many ways punishes poverty while welcoming billionaire influence is what drives so many people to destruction. Dems can't run on maintaining a deeply flawed system and expect lasting change, they need to offer an ideal of a better government that more tangibly serves more people.

This is a very 2016 take. Trump already had a first term and people saw what he did. His unofficial running mate is Elon Musk(the wealthiest man in the world) and tech ceos jumped to Trump bc they were mad at the Biden admin regulating them.

I think at this point, the issue is that Trump captured the republican party and made it a cult. We can discuss the pains of the economy in 2016 and whatnot but lets not lie to ourselves here. By 2024, Trump wasnt running on the same platform he did in 2016. His most effective campaign ad was one where he chastised dems for caring about trans people, not one where he said that the american people are looking for a revolution or whatever.

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Musk’s DOGE seeks access to personal taxpayer data, raising alarm at IRS

https://archive.is/UbIzm#selection-533.0-536.0

[Breccia]

Elon Musk wants access to Fort Knox's gold.

No, really.

Sen. Rand Paul called for a review of the vault’s massive gold reserves — worth an estimated $425 billion based on market rates — in response to the tech mogul’s musings about the stash.

Musk, 53, drew attention to a user who asked him to “take a look inside Fort Knox just to make sure the 4,580 tons of US gold is there.”

How quaint. Trump is giving the world's richest man the keys to America's gold supply, "just to make sure it's okay".

[Endus]

Some people are voting for the destruction party because the system isn't working for them, and we can agree it's really dumb to do that because the party is obviously full of vaguely human-shaped tumors and parasites, but the pain of a system that in many ways punishes poverty while welcoming billionaire influence is what drives so many people to destruction. Dems can't run on maintaining a deeply flawed system and expect lasting change, they need to offer an ideal of a better government that more tangibly serves more people.

This is backwards thinking.

The Democrats are the party they've been since the '60s or so. What they stand for is clear.

If you don't like it, vote better. This is a problem that is fully within the hands of the American people to correct, and you don't. You accept your fate, throw your hands up in despair, and wait for it all to be over.

At best.

The primary problem with the American electoral system is the voters. The voters keep picking the Democrats and Republicans. A third of eligible voters don't even bother. Complaining that the system is broken and not doing anything to fix the system is just "thoughts and prayers" for democracy. You've done absolutely fuck-all, exerted zero effort, but you want to be patted on the back for noticing the problem.

And don't tell me "a third party can't replace one of the big two!" Tell that to the Whig Party (among others). You're in the sixth party system the USA has held in its history. You're telling me it's impossible for there to be a seventh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Party_System

Hell, we've just experienced a massive internal shift in the Republican Party. It may be enough to draw a line into a Seventh Party System all by itself. These things are absolutely malleable, Americans (particularly, in this case, left-leaning Americans) just can't be arsed to bother, for the most part. Passive acceptance is a small step short of open compliance.

[NED funded]

Also, Republicans arent the destruction party. They have very clearly defined views of what they want and what are their goals. They let other side goals attach themselves to it but their vision is clear. They wrote an entire document called Project 2025 where they describe that vision.

[Malkiah]

Generally speaking, midterm elections tend to go against the party that holds the Oval Office.

right ok, so that's two of you now that have replied with what i perceive to be the same answer.
final check here because i don't want to misread this or project the wrong idea on you: when you folks are talking about how a political reckoning is coming for the republicans, you're just meaning "the electoral flip that happens every midterm"?

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If you don't like it, vote better.

how?
like, by what mechanical process does a suburban 9-5er "vote better"?
that's an awesome sound byte to post on a message board but i'd love to know the actual process by which you think that works.

The primary problem with the American electoral system is the voters. The voters keep picking the Democrats and Republicans. A third of eligible voters don't even bother.

pssssssst.
"not even bothering" is explicitly not picking the democrats or the republicans.
so you need to pick one: either voting for D or R is the only acceptable behavior, or else picking neither is also an acceptable behavior.
i know that this is pretty straight forward SDoVA bullshit at work but you're one of the most ardent priests for the orthodoxy around here so i'm sure you can figure out some way to square the circle, right?

Complaining that the system is broken and not doing anything to fix the system is just "thoughts and prayers" for democracy. You've done absolutely fuck-all, exerted zero effort, but you want to be patted on the back for noticing the problem.

broadly speaking it's an interesting point on a philosophical level: to what extent can any given person be expected to be a fulcrum of history, and to what extent can any given person be expected to succeed at doing so intentionally?

make me god emperor of the US and i'll have this shit resolved in a week (as i'm sure just about anyone would be capable of doing), but short of that it's a mass of disparate entities just milling around and none of them have any material capacity to impact the mechanisms of society, so how the hell do you justify blaming them for the state of it?
that's like saying an individual drop of water is personally responsible for the tides.

Hell, we've just experienced a massive internal shift in the Republican Party. It may be enough to draw a line into a Seventh Party System all by itself. These things are absolutely malleable, Americans (particularly, in this case, left-leaning Americans) just can't be arsed to bother, for the most part. Passive acceptance is a small step short of open compliance.

"can't be arsed" is an interesting accusation, it makes me wonder if you are suffering from a lack of understanding of US culture.
much like your daydreams earlier in the thread of spontaneous nationwide citizen uprisings which completely hand-waved exactly how that would happen logistically, this is another example of you casually suggesting that some 150 million humans collectively self-organize into a political project in the span of a few months.
it's a great little snippet, but how does that actually work?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

right ok, so that's two of you now that have replied with what i perceive to be the same answer.
final check here because i don't want to misread this or project the wrong idea on you: when you folks are talking about how a political reckoning is coming for the republicans, you're just meaning "the electoral flip that happens every midterm"?

Well, I won't speak for anyone else...but what I mean is that I am hopeful that many of the people that didn't vote in the last election because they weren't super happy with Democrats will have learned an important lesson and show up in 2026 and that, plus the normal midterm flip, will make 2026 a very bad year for Republicans.

[Malkiah]

Well, I won't speak for anyone else...but what I mean is that I am hopeful that many of the people that didn't vote in the last election because they weren't super happy with Democrats will have learned an important lesson and show up in 2026 and that, plus the normal midterm flip, will make 2026 a very bad year for Republicans.

ok that clears up my confusion then, at least assuming most folks who are talking this way mean it the way you do.
thanks for taking the time to explain that.

[Gestopft]

Also, Republicans arent the destruction party. They have very clearly defined views of what they want and what are their goals. They let other side goals attach themselves to it but their vision is clear. They wrote an entire document called Project 2025 where they describe that vision.

"Republicans aren't the destruction party"

Soooo you don't actually know what's in Project 2025 then?

[Xath]

Also, Republicans arent the destruction party. They have very clearly defined views of what they want and what are their goals. They let other side goals attach themselves to it but their vision is clear. They wrote an entire document called Project 2025 where they describe that vision.

You mean the document that describes destroying the United States government and rebuilding it as an autocracy?

[Endus]

how?
like, by what mechanical process does a suburban 9-5er "vote better"?
that's an awesome sound byte to post on a message board but i'd love to know the actual process by which you think that works.

Stop voting for the parties you don't like. And vote for ones you do.

Of course, it's not that simple. You also have to help build parties you do like. That's the process. And if you can't be arsed, well, you're the problem. You're why the system is like this. You and ~180 million other people just like you.

pssssssst.
"not even bothering" is explicitly not picking the democrats or the republicans.

No, that's the equivalent of wishing your thoughts and prayers for victims of a tragedy. You're doing absolutely nothing, and expecting to take a moral high ground.

so you need to pick one: either voting for D or R is the only acceptable behavior, or else picking neither is also an acceptable behavior.

That's such a blatant false dilemma. There are other parties. There are other candidates. You could get involved in building more if you don't like what's out there.

I do not accept "I've tried absolutely fuck-all and I'm all out of ideas" as a valid position.

i know that this is pretty straight forward SDoVA bullshit at work but you're one of the most ardent priests for the orthodoxy around here so i'm sure you can figure out some way to square the circle, right?

A "priest of the orthodoxy"? The Canadian market socialist who thinks capitalism is the root of all evils and that the world would be better off if everyone with a net worth north of say $50m just up and died?

You really don't know what you're talking about.

broadly speaking it's an interesting point on a philosophical level: to what extent can any given person be expected to be a fulcrum of history, and to what extent can any given person be expected to succeed at doing so intentionally?

That's the wrong question, because these things don't change on the action of one single person in the first place. Kind of a factor to democracy.

The masses sitting on their asses and twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone else to fix things absolutely is how things stay forever broken, with the only extant parties being the ones who broke things for their own gain.

make me god emperor of the US and i'll have this shit resolved in a week (as i'm sure just about anyone would be capable of doing), but short of that it's a mass of disparate entities just milling around and none of them have any material capacity to impact the mechanisms of society, so how the hell do you justify blaming them for the state of it?
that's like saying an individual drop of water is personally responsible for the tides.

I do not understand this "wait for a magical saviour-figure to come save you" stance you're taking. That's not how this mess was made, and it isn't how it'll be fixed. It just seems like a really bad excuse for patting yourself on the back about doing nothing.

"can't be arsed" is an interesting accusation, it makes me wonder if you are suffering from a lack of understanding of US culture.
much like your daydreams earlier in the thread of spontaneous nationwide citizen uprisings which completely hand-waved exactly how that would happen logistically, this is another example of you casually suggesting that some 150 million humans collectively self-organize into a political project in the span of a few months.
it's a great little snippet, but how does that actually work?

Where did I say "a few months"?

Ignoring that attempt to demand effectively instant action, the USA itself is a self-organized mass of a similar number of humans working together on the current political project. The USA's existence (or any country, really) demonstrates it's possible.

And really, you don't need everyone. There's been a lot of analysis in recent years that you only need about 3.5%-5% of a population to successfully prosecute an internal revolution, and we're not talking about violence necessarily here, just throwing off the old system and building a new one. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...ange-the-world

In fact, I'd say it's pretty accurate that it's happening right now, it's just 3.5% of the population you probably really really don't like much who're the ones active and pushing for change. And they're getting that change. That's what you're experiencing.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

how?
like, by what mechanical process does a suburban 9-5er "vote better"?
that's an awesome sound byte to post on a message board but i'd love to know the actual process by which you think that works.

Easy.

Don't just vote for a color. Learn the platforms.
Don't just believe what they say they will do. Look at what they've actually done.
Don't just vote during Presidential elections. Vote during the midterms. Vote for city council.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Honestly, as much empathy one can have, it's their own fault for their current situation. They are the ones that choose to play Russian Roulette with a full loaded revolver and tried to win.

2026 is going to be a bloodbath for the GOP.

I feel like Trump and Elon both know that winning in 2026 and 2028 are a sure thing, just like they knew 2024 was a sure thing days and hours before the election even happened. They're going to rob the treasury blind and try to install Trump and his family as president for life, a Republican super majority with stolen elections across the country would make it simple to end most of the constitutional amendments before the tenth.