Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The idea that the story is not news because she changed her story after being put under gag order is so deranged that I don’t know what else to say about it.

So, what's the story? "Donald Trump's ex-wife once said in a deposition that he raped her but later said that she never meant the word "rape" to be taken literally"?

I'm not engaging with that story. I'm moving on...because, even if there was a rape, it can never be proven. Even if there was a cover-up...it can never be proven. Ivana went to her grave saying that she was not raped by Donald Trump.

E. Jean Carrol has a real story of sexual assault by Donald Trump. She never recanted her story. He was found liable of sexual assault in a civil trial. That's a story people can run with. I'll engage with that story.

[Mayhem]

And the poor unfortunate souls are just completely incapable of managing what they watch, and are just mind-controlled by propaganda no matter how they might want otherwise, right?

That's your argument? That propaganda literally erases personal agency over one's choices? One can't reject propaganda and seek better information?

I'm not saying people don't fall for this stuff. I'm saying it's a mistake in their reasoning or behaviour. They're making bad, indefensible choices. And we're pointing out that it's their fault, for making those bad choices. You keep pointing to how enticing or easy those choices may be, and that's a totally different conversation.

All I am saying is this isn't a black and white issue. It is not 100% the voters fault. If that were the case you're excusing every lying politician. I mean sure if you want to do that fine, but I think that is dishonest and puts the blame entirely on the ones being grifted instead of the grifters. I hate the politicians that play the population more than the populace that falls for it. They generally don't have the time to invest hours upon hours every week to look up information and double-check what every politician said.

It's no different than opposing racism and arguing that racists are bad people, for choosing to be racist. Sure, lots of people are racist. It doesn't mean they're good people or that their choice to be racist is defensible.

Same here. They're making bad choices, and they are fully responsible for those choices.

Some people choose to be racist, others are taught to be racist. Can't blame them both equally.

Sure. And?

Describing to me why they're bad people making bad choices does not mean they aren't responsible for those choices. That's the disconnect between your argument and what we're actually talking about. Which isn't "why do people make bad choices?", but "are people responsible for the bad choices they choose to make?"

I never said they are not responsible for their choices, maybe drop that part of your argument, I said they aren't solely responsible for their choices.

Managing the algorithm is really not that hard. It's not mind-controlling you. Just block bad shit. You just have to choose to.

Pretty sure the vast majority have absolutely no clue about what algorithms do and how to change what content is suggested to them.

Again, you're attacking a straw man.

I never argued Charles Manson was innocent, did I? Just that his followers were responsible for their own actions. That's it. You keep trying to make the argument something else.

Answer the question and you might understand what I am talking about.

"The people voted for this." "Trump told them exactly what he wanted to do." Bullshit. He didn't tell the people he's going to ruin small businesses and start a trade war with the rest of the world. He didn't tell people his government is going to send people without due process to a prison in El Salvador.

And just one question, what if the voters erroneously thought that congress would stop Trump from doing all the sensational shit he was talking about?

[Fugus]

Except that it's not a kitten killer, it's a serial murderer who has threatened them and/or people they love. And they don't have to hunt him down to make a difference, they just have to fill in a few bubbles on a piece of paper.

Standing idly by when the threat is so much higher and the cost of helping out is so much lower is definitely grounds for blame.

Except he didn’t threaten them to their face. They were told he threatened them by the town Chicken Littles who scream the sky is falling every few years to the point their eye glaze over whenever they speak.

You try and reduce it to just bubbling on a sheet, but you know there is more to it than that.

[Slirith]

Must be a slow news day

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

"The people voted for this." "Trump told them exactly what he wanted to do." Bullshit. He didn't tell the people he's going to ruin small businesses and start a trade war with the rest of the world. He didn't tell people his government is going to send people without due process to a prison in El Salvador.

Didn't he?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/u...e-process.html



No Judges? No court cases? Does that sound like due process?

Oh right. That was during his first term. People have "short memories" right?

How about this campaign then? He ran on his economic policy. 16 nobel laureates wrote a letter saying his policies would "reignite inflation and cause lasting harm to the global economy."

That's not very good.

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/25/nob...rump-inflation

Kamala Harris mentioned this during the debate.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/harr...y?id=113560542

VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: So, Donald Trump has no plan for you. And when you look at his economic plan, it's all about tax breaks for the richest people. I am offering what I describe as an opportunity economy, and the best economists in our country, if not the world, have reviewed our relative plans for the future of America. What Goldman Sachs has said is that Donald Trump's plan would make the economy worse. Mine would strengthen the economy. What the Wharton School has said is Donald Trump's plan would actually explode the deficit. Sixteen Nobel laureates have described his economic plan as something that would increase inflation and by the middle of next year would invite a recession. You just have to look at where we are and where we stand on the issues. And I'd invite you to know that Donald Trump actually has no plan for you, because he is more interested in defending himself than he is in looking out for you.

[Mayhem]

I'm not really sure what the fuck you were getting at with that argument honetly...it didn't seem to advance your cause at all though.



They're at fault for telling lies. But the only person responsible for your vote is you. Believing a lie does not remove your agency.



Every voter is always responsible for their vote. Every non-voter is always responsible for their non-vote. Not sure how this is a controversial position.

Well this conversation started with "The voters are 100% at fault for the shit we're in" which I think is dishonest and excuses all the grifters and liars from any wrongdoing.

[Endus]

You keep assuming that everyone knows everything.

Why do you return to this well? It's a false argument. Nothing I've said expects omniscience of anyone.

Just a basic effort to inform yourself before voting. If you can get into high school, you can pass that bar.

And just one question, what if the voters erroneously thought that congress would stop Trump from doing all the sensational shit he was talking about?

The same consideration for people who really thought demons had gotten into their child and so they had to smother them in their beds. The Republicans in Congress have been eager to do Trump's bidding since his first term. And there's no basis in reality outside of Trump that they'd oppose similarly crazy bullshit if it were brought by a Republican. See their attempts to defend George W. Bush's support of outright torture on prisoners.

It's a malformed and counterfactual viewpoint, and holding it is enough to condemn the individual for doing so. I don't agree it's just a simple "error". We're not talking about slipping a decimal place when doing napkin math or accidentally typing "affect" when you meant "effect".

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Well this conversation started with "The voters are 100% at fault for the shit we're in" which I think is dishonest and excuses all the grifters and liars from any wrongdoing.

The grifters and liars did their damage...but the only person in that voting booth is you.

[Endus]

Well this conversation started with "The voters are 100% at fault for the shit we're in" which I think is dishonest and excuses all the grifters and liars from any wrongdoing.

Not "any wrongdoing".

If you're gullible enough to buy snake oil, that's 100% on you. You shouldn't have fallen for it.

The snake oil salesman is responsible for his grifting of the crowd. That can be simultaneously true, as it's an entirely separate question. He'd be just as responsible for the lack of ethics in the attempt even if his attempts were unsuccessful.

[Mayhem]

Didn't he?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/u...e-process.html



No Judges? No court cases? Does that sound like due process?

Oh right. That was during his first term. People have "short memories" right?

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation and is far from we'll pick up people living here for years and send them to El Salvador.

How about this campaign then? He ran on his economic policy. 16 nobel laureates wrote a letter saying his policies would "reignite inflation and cause lasting harm to the global economy."

That's not very good.

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/25/nob...rump-inflation

Kamala Harris mentioned this during the debate.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/harr...y?id=113560542

Exactly, he didn't say he is going to ruin the economy.

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Not "any wrongdoing".

If you're gullible enough to buy snake oil, that's 100% on you. You shouldn't have fallen for it.

The snake oil salesman is responsible for his grifting of the crowd. That can be simultaneously true, as it's an entirely separate question. He'd be just as responsible for the lack of ethics in the attempt even if his attempts were unsuccessful.

You can't seriously think that. You can't treat everyone as having equal knowledge and understanding of what is going on in the world. Also how do you explain the laws and regulations against these practices if it's 100% the fault of the ones being grifted? If it's entirely your choice, how the fuck do you press charges or sue for damages, it was your choice to receive that damage after all?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation and is far from we'll pick up people living here for years and send them to El Salvador.

Right. He didn't specifically say "El Salvador" and he didn't specifically say "Deny due Process".

No courts and no judges. That doesn't mean he was going to deny them due process... it could mean anything! So much "room for interpretation".

Exactly, he didn't say he is going to ruin the economy.

Wow, you sure got me there. He didn't actually say that he would tank the economy. He just campaigned on policies that would.

[Mazza]

Must be a slow news day

Trump doesn't work during the weekend, so yeh.

[Mayhem]

Right. He didn't specifically say "El Salvador" and he didn't specifically say "Deny due Process".

No courts and no judges. That doesn't mean he was going to deny them due process... it could mean anything! So much "room for interpretation".

And he also didn't say people living here for years but invaders. Yes he lied.

Wow, you sure got me there. He didn't actually say that he would tank the economy. He just campaigned on policies that would.

Yes, he lied, exactly.

[gondrin]

Yeah, and that is ignoring all the things politicians, policies, and private entities do to keep people from informing themselves. I mean, we know for a fact that wealth has more influence on what policies get voted on than public approval of said policies, regardless of party affiliation.

Politicians lie or exaggerate and have for pretty much the entirety that there have been politicians. That doesn't absolve the voters from actually investigating their claims.

If the candidate doesn't even remotely mention anything of the sort, that is one thing. And what I mean by this is to not tell anyone, not have any history of wanting to do said thing and the like. Lets say Kamala campaigned on what she did and if she would have won, she started to bomb Democratic cities. Yes, the voters would have had no way of knowing this. This would be all on her seeing as she did something nobody would have had any knowledge of.

However, Trump ACTIVELY campaigned on what he is doing. THERE WAS NO HIDING OF INFORMATION. Every Single news channel, every single media source ACTIVELY showed what he was saying. The media that supported him? Casted it in a good light. The media that didn't? Casted it in a bad light. But at no time did he not ever campaign on what he is doing.

So, in the case of Trump, anyone voting FOR Trump has only themselves to blame. Seeing as there was NO reason they didn't know about these things. Either they were too lazy or just ignored things.

- - - Updated - - -

"The people voted for this." "Trump told them exactly what he wanted to do." Bullshit. He didn't tell the people he's going to ruin small businesses and start a trade war with the rest of the world. He didn't tell people his government is going to send people without due process to a prison in El Salvador.

Trump has been going on about tariffs since the 80s. It is literally one of a handful of things he has been consistent on wanting to implement. He also has stated, multiple times, to actively arrest someone, remove them from the country without any due process. He also has stated that, and this is for the gun owners, that he wanted to take away firearms FIRST and then go through the courts.

So yes, as stated before, anyone that voted FOR Trump literally is to blame here. That is the ENTIRETY of the people who voted for him.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

And he also didn't say people living here for years but invaders. Yes he lied.

you keep on avoiding that whole thing about "Due Process".

Yes, he lied, exactly.

He didn't lie. He said what his policies were. He's enacting those policies.

[Mayhem]

you keep on avoiding that whole thing about "Due Process".

And you keep insisting that includes everything else.

He didn't lie. He said what his policies were. He's enacting those policies.

Got it, Trump didn't lie.

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Trump has been going on about tariffs since the 80s. It is literally one of a handful of things he has been consistent on wanting to implement. He also has stated, multiple times, to actively arrest someone, remove them from the country without any due process. He also has stated that, and this is for the gun owners, that he wanted to take away firearms FIRST and then go through the courts.

So yes, as stated before, anyone that voted FOR Trump literally is to blame here. That is the ENTIRETY of the people who voted for him.

This you?

And this is why nobody knows what the hell is going on. Lutnick says one thing. Trump says something else. Steven Miller or another person close to Trump says something completely different than the first 2. Bessant literally says another thing that is different.

When there are 4 people saying 4 different things, it pretty much causes what we are seeing here. Tariffs being imposed but not collected.

So which is it, Trump told exactly what he was going to do or nobody knows what the hell is going on, can't be both can it?

[gondrin]

And you keep insisting that includes everything else.



Got it, Trump didn't lie.

- - - Updated - - -



This you?



So which is it, Trump told exactly what he was going to do or nobody knows what the hell is going on, can't be both can it?

Trump is saying Tariffs are on. Lutnick is saying some are temporary. Bessent is saying everything is negotiable. Trump is being consistent. It is the rest of the administration that is going out and saying something different than Trump. And then when Trump comes out and states what he wants to do, Lutnick then has to explain why what he said was different than Trump.

It has nothing to do with what was said on the campaign trail. Trump actively stated that he wanted to impose tariffs. He was talking, since the 80s, about imposing tariffs are pretty much everyone since he thinks trade deficits is taking advantage of the United States.

[Mayhem]

Trump is saying Tariffs are on. Lutnick is saying some are temporary. Bessent is saying everything is negotiable. Trump is being consistent. It is the rest of the administration that is going out and saying something different than Trump. And then when Trump comes out and states what he wants to do, Lutnick then has to explain why what he said was different than Trump.

It has nothing to do with what was said on the campaign trail. Trump actively stated that he wanted to impose tariffs. He was talking, since the 80s, about imposing tariffs are pretty much everyone since he thinks trade deficits is taking advantage of the United States.

Got it, so the voters knew exactly what was going to come, that means the ones that actually got played was the previous government because they could've prevented this if they just believed Trump. Brilliant.

[gondrin]

On the subject of Trump and being on tariffs for a long time, here is pretty much Last Week Tonight with John Oliver showing this exact thing.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

And you keep insisting that includes everything else.

He said he would deport people without due process. That's exactly what he's doing.

You've found a weird little hill to die on here.