Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[tehdang]

I'm mostly a lurker in this thread, and would consider myself to have a more moderate opinion on the Trump administration than most of the vocal posters here, but I'm sorry - this is a hilariously bad take and I had to make a post. We're witnessing the decline of the US - abandoning it's allies, democracy and western ideals of freedom and liberty. But it's some racist getting a fine in Europe that is the issue, not what the Trump administration is doing.

Absolute bonkers take.

I'm sure, as more moderate than this forum (says really nothing), that you can hold two things in your head at the same time. Europe's record is bad, and it should be decried, and I'm glad Vance did it. You can also point out whatever you think indicates a decline of the US--tariffs we would likely agree on, even--and it wouldn't change one single thing about the former. None of it implies or ought to imply that when I point out one thing, I am rank ordering all the potential issues we might discuss.

It's a post on an internet forum. I'm not publishing a novel where I rate Europe's demonstrable decline alongside climate change, ICE deportations, AIDS in Africa, and the Russia-China-Iran relationship. I've been witnessing the decline of the US for over two decades. I think Trump is more a symptom of the decline than a cause of the decline. Maybe you think the same about the Sweden Democrats? But would we be able to talk about a group of countries, a single country, or a single party without implying that we're literally comparing the relative worth of discussion topics?

I don't think you really can continue to believe this post if you would reflect. The sentiment, the true deep sentiment of "racists getting fined [for their speech]," is literally "gang members getting deported." We can all play the games of framing the issue, but they're really just games. I'm getting a little off topic from one yahoo that asked who wrote the land of the free, home of the brave line, so we can let it lie there. I wish you all the best on recognizing and reversing the state of affairs in Europe.

[Endus]

I'm sure, as more moderate than this forum (says really nothing), that you can hold two things in your head at the same time. Europe's record is bad, and it should be decried, and I'm glad Vance did it.

Except that most European countries' records on civil rights and freedoms is objectively better than the USA's. As I demonstrated just a few posts ago.

Unless you're a Nazi or something similar.

And if your issue is the rights of Nazis, then you're a Nazi sympathizer and we shouldn't take anything you say seriously. At least, more than we already don't.

This is why you won't ever point to specifics. To do so, you'd have to take the mask off and expose who you really are to everyone. And you know it.

[Breccia]

North Dakota brings number of states with measles outbreaks up to eleven.

In North Dakota, all nine cases are in Williams County on the state’s border with Montana. The state health department said Monday that three of the confirmed cases are linked to the first case — an unvaccinated child who health officials believe got it from an out-of-state visitor.

The other five cases, announced Tuesday, were people who were not vaccinated and did not have contact with the other cases, causing concern about community transmission. The state health department said four people diagnosed with measles attended classes while infectious at a Williston elementary school, middle school and high school.

No new fatalities. Yet. Just spreading like a forest fire.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I think it's wild and yet perfectly on brand that the fascistic alt-right is trying to pass off their bonkers insane cruel politics as "centrist"

They believe their cruelty and disregard for the law of the land is just "normal"

[Elder Millennial]

Europe.

How about this.

A continent that was devastated by Nazis in a way not seen since the Black Plague and 300 years worth of religious wars all condensed into a brief 5 years less than 4 generations ago gets to tell Nazis that they don't get the same rights as everyone else.

And this is an objectively and morally correct position that remains consistent with greater ideals like universal human rights, political freedom and freedom of expression.

You keep fucking doubling and trippling down on your defense of Nazis. Worse, you aren't just demanding that they get a "fair" treatment. You are demanding for them to get special treatment.

[Mayhem]

Catching up on stuff. I just got to Vance totally encouraging tourism during the world cup...

As if watching tourists already getting detained and imprisoned wasn't enough.

This is going to be a disaster. Tourists will not come when there's a chance they'll get deported for not having a hotel booked in advance which is impossible because fans can't know which team wins or loses.

[Breccia]

They believe their cruelty and disregard for the law of the land is just "normal"

It's easy to have such beliefs when your entire political ideology is based on avoiding reason and facts at all costs. People capable of digesting information wouldn't support Trump, barring those being outright paid.

[Tech614]

This is going to be a disaster. Tourists will not come when there's a chance they'll get deported for not having a hotel booked in advance which is impossible because fans can't know which team wins or loses.

They traveled to Qatar and survived with their organs in brazil so I have no doubt world cup travelers will still risk it and come when they shouldn't. They don't seem like the smartest bunch.

[Endus]

How about this.

A continent that was devastated by Nazis in a way not seen since the Black Plague and 300 years worth of religious wars all condensed into a brief 5 years less than 4 generations ago gets to tell Nazis that they don't get the same rights as everyone else.

And this is an objectively and morally correct position that remains consistent with greater ideals like universal human rights, political freedom and freedom of expression.

You keep fucking doubling and trippling down on your defense of Nazis. Worse, you aren't just demanding that they get a "fair" treatment. You are demanding for them to get special treatment.

It's worse; he's arguing they should be protected while at the same time they predate on and attack others. Their abuses are what's to be protected.

It's just Nazi sympathizing. That's the side he's taken.

[SAY HER NAME]

I dont have strong opinions on Europe mostly cuz I respect the different ways other cultures handle things. Banning political parties and throwing people in prison for offensive language is part of their culture. Its not in the US. I also dont criticize the ways Russia, China or India handle things. Both cuz I dont understand it and cuz its kinda bigoted to throw criticism to a culture that does things differently than you. Just cuz you are not free to express politically doesnt mean that you live in a hellhole or whatever

[tehdang]

How about this.

A continent that was devastated by Nazis in a way not seen since the Black Plague and 300 years worth of religious wars all condensed into a brief 5 years less than 4 generations ago gets to tell Nazis that they don't get the same rights as everyone else.

Non sequitur. It would be like saying that the victims of criminal gang violence get to have an increased say in how the justice and immigration system treats criminals and illegal aliens.

Two quick things on who "gets to tell" people what to do, and which people "don't get the same rights as anyone else." First, I don't think you can attain a higher moral plane to dictate how rights are apportioned or re-apportioned. It won't work and it can't work. Second, the adage of victims having increased moral insight reminds me of other adages I think might apply in this case. The first would be a pendulum that swings back to center, and then passes that to skew far in the other direction. Faced with such destruction, the correction ended up in an overcorrection. A principled individual should identify that error as an error, and fix it.

And this is an objectively and morally correct position that remains consistent with greater ideals like universal human rights, political freedom and freedom of expression.

You will always lose me when you claim that there are greater ideals that involve banning political parties and throwing dissenters in jail for speech someone deemed hateful and provocative. Nope. This is some real Soviet-style propaganda by stating that you are championing higher ideals while scrapping basic ones. You aren't the person standing in the way of the "higher ideals" today, but tomorrow comes. It's the far better choice to give up the censorship through fines and jail, than to unerringly pick perfect censors.

You keep fucking doubling and trippling down on your defense of Nazis. Worse, you aren't just demanding that they get a "fair" treatment. You are demanding for them to get special treatment.

I don't really need to concern myself about your opinions on the rights of who you think are morally upright individuals who say things you agree with. I really have good cause to zero in on who you think are the worst citizens in your society, and what kinds of activities they might engage in that would cause you to want their money taken or their body jailed. I'll ask you about somebody you think is a Nazi posting an offensive image online, but to some other person, I'd ask them about somebody they think is a Jew posting an offensive image online. The next person, a Muslim.

I've never argued for special treatment, and I want your rights protected if somebody else has a different meaning when they repeat you, word for word, "they don't get the same rights as everyone else."

Injustice will continue to fuel the opposition. The character of the opposition doesn't matter. I'm observing gains in the far-right parties of Europe in the past decade, and I'm sorry to say you're giving them tremendous fuel. You've called me a fascist before in this forum, and others have called me a Nazi and racist. Aren't you making my case for me? That I should be glad I'm not governed by backwards laws that you support, because I'm one of the people not deserving of speech rights? I should hope if the roles were reversed, and you were the one being called a Nazi, fascist, and racist, that you would feel more of an attachment to which people "don't get the same rights as everyone else."

I know that the institution has drifted considerably since the , but there was one that "ke[pt] fucking doubling and trippling down on [their] defense of Nazis." It was the American Civil Liberties Union, or ACLU. Elder Millenial's allies were there, saying that it was permissible to violate their civil liberties because they were Nazis. Whether a march in Skokie (mind you, this was a half Jewish area, with tons of Holocaust survivors), or previously a planned assembly in Central Park, they were willing to double and triple down through multiple appeals. The ACLU's position was unpopular in the same way you're familiar with and do here: defending the rights of people invites attacks on the character of the people you're defending. The consequences of adopting a right-but-unpopular argument didn't persuade them to drop it. The point is to discover that no person or group (judge, legislator, NGO, intelligence agency) rightfully can decide which citizens get which rights, and the overall defense of them without regard to the unsavory character of the speech, political party, assembly, march is critical to sustaining the principle of rights. They include yours, just in case some opinions you have fall out of favor with the government censors.

I dont have strong opinions on Europe mostly cuz I respect the different ways other cultures handle things. Banning political parties and throwing people in prison for offensive language is part of their culture. Its not in the US. I also dont criticize the ways Russia, China or India handle things. Both cuz I dont understand it and cuz its kinda bigoted to throw criticism to a culture that does things differently than you. Just cuz you are not free to express politically doesnt mean that you live in a hellhole or whatever

I would have little reason to comment if there were not the history that binds Europe to the US in the opposition to Soviet Russia. The historical ties are real. If America's connection to Europe were the same as that to "Russia, China, or India," then who really cares? There wouldn't even be a Munich Security Conference to send J.D. Vance to!

This is about the relations between countries and recognizing when the previous ties have loosened, somewhat, from diverging political cultures. (I recommend Vance's speech for the real examples, since understanding them in their breadth is necessary to notice a theme and not unrelated instances. I won't repeat them in detail here.) I don't think there would be significant monetary and military support of Ukraine in its war of defense if this were a case of "respect[ing] the different ways other cultures handle things."

The flip side is also true: The EU and European states can decide Trump's two elections are just the proof they need that America doesn't share values with them and disengage from treaties, trade, security cooperation, and conferences. America talking smack about Europe is not an immunity to hearing it right back.

[Elder Millennial]

Non sequitur.

You are talking about THE NAZIS.

Are all gang members immigrants? Are all immigrants gang members?

Are all Nazis Nazis? Nazis are Nazis.

Faced with such destruction, the correction ended up in an overcorrection. A principled individual should identify that error as an error, and fix it.

We are talking about NAZIS. There's is no overcorrection. The correct and measured correction for the existence of Nazis, is to remove them from existence. They are NAZIS.

You will always lose me when you claim that there are greater ideals that involve banning political parties and throwing dissenters in jail for speech someone deemed hateful and provocative.

I'm not going to point out that you wouldn't vehemently defend Islamist Jihadists the same, but let's ignore that point and go back to pointing out that you are defending fucking Nazis.

I've never argued for special treatment.

Here you just straight up lied. You have years worth of post history making special exemptions in both ways, arguing in favor of Nazis and engaging in Islamophobic drivel. Dude we all fucking know you. What the actual fuck are you even saying?

Injustice will continue to fuel the opposition.

Injustice towards Nazis?

The character of the opposition doesn't matter. I'm observing gains in the far-right parties of Europe in the past decade, and I'm sorry to say you're giving them tremendous fuel.

No we are not. What's giving them fuel is fascists and Nazis and racists like you and assholes like Putin who astroturfing them.

You've called me a fascist before in this forum, and others have called me a Nazi and racist.

I was correct then and I'm correct now, what's your point?

That I should be glad I'm not governed by backwards laws that you support, because I'm one of the people not deserving of speech rights? I should hope if the roles were reversed, and you were the one being called a Nazi, fascist, and racist, that you would feel more of an attachment to which people "don't get the same rights as everyone else."

False equivalency. Nazis are Nazis. Shits like you engage in this obfuscation of attempting to muddle the waters on what a Nazis is. But, despite of your best efforts, most people for the time being, can still recognize a FUCKING NAZI, or a Nazi sympathizer.

I can't be bothered with the rest of your horseshit, anyone else feels like it, they are welcome to.

You are exactly what you are, and we can fucking tell what you are.

[Polgara]

Oh hey nazi propaganda on MMO-champ again? Must be a day ending with "Y".

[tehdang]

You are talking about THE NAZIS.
Are all Nazis Nazis? Nazis are Nazis.
We are talking about NAZIS.
They are NAZIS.
you are defending fucking Nazis.
Injustice towards Nazis?
What's giving them fuel is fascists and Nazis and racists like you
Nazis are Nazis.
recognize a FUCKING NAZI, or a Nazi sympathizer.

I can't be bothered

I can't force you to recognize the dissonance in calling me a fascist, racist, and Nazi, and then telling me I should have no qualms about laws depriving "Nazis" of civil rights. You can repeat it another 9 times if you'd like, but the gist of your argument is that no caution is necessary. I think that your Nazi exemption to civil rights makes you an enemy of civil rights in general. I have an issue with identifying and oppressing the bad in society, since your Nazi will be another's gang members, or religious extremists, or rapists, or whoever else the Elder Millennials of the world decide don't get civil rights. If you thought the road on your logic stopped at Nazi, you're wrong. You're just robbing yourself of weapons when you're the undesirable.

[DarkTZeratul]

I can't force you to recognize the dissonance in calling me a fascist, racist, and Nazi, and then telling me I should have no qualms about laws depriving "Nazis" of civil rights. You can repeat it another 9 times if you'd like, but the gist of your argument is that no caution is necessary. I think that your Nazi exemption to civil rights makes you an enemy of civil rights in general. I have an issue with identifying and oppressing the bad in society, since your Nazi will be another's gang members, or religious extremists, or rapists, or whoever else the Elder Millennials of the world decide don't get civil rights. If you thought the road on your logic stopped at Nazi, you're wrong. You're just robbing yourself of weapons when you're the undesirable.

Good to know that the hill you will die on is the defense of goddamn fucking Nazis.

[Polgara]

I can't force you to recognize the dissonance in calling me a fascist, racist, and Nazi, and then telling me I should have no qualms about laws depriving "Nazis" of civil rights. You can repeat it another 9 times if you'd like, but the gist of your argument is that no caution is necessary. I think that your Nazi exemption to civil rights makes you an enemy of civil rights in general. I have an issue with identifying and oppressing the bad in society, since your Nazi will be another's gang members, or religious extremists, or rapists, or whoever else the Elder Millennials of the world decide don't get civil rights. If you thought the road on your logic stopped at Nazi, you're wrong. You're just robbing yourself of weapons when you're the undesirable.

Nazis don't deserve civil rights. That's where you get hung up, you don't deserve them. Be a better person, but hey maybe I should just be doxxed and threatened and physically assaulted by a few more to just "feel" their plights better?

[Elder Millennial]

I can't force you to recognize the dissonance in calling me a fascist, racist, and Nazi, and then telling me I should have no qualms about laws depriving "Nazis" of civil rights.

Oh shut the fuck up you lying fascist.

Give us one example of the pooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooor Nazis being deprived of their civil rights.

Breaking THE FUCKING LAW and then being prosecuted for it is not a deprivation of your civil rights. And being a Nazi is (in many places) illegal and if it's not, it should be.

Nazis are not entitled to respect. They are not entitled to civil discourse. They are not entitled to being taken seriously. And they are ESPECIALLY NOT ENTITLED TO ENGAGE IN POLITICAL DISCOURSE. All that went out the window circa the time they marched the first people into a death camp.

You're just fucking lying. Jesus fuck dude. Take the fucking L. You whiny Nazis.

[Draco-Onis]

The European Parliament says China has lifted sanctions it imposed on 5 EU lawmakers in 2021

China has lifted sanctions it imposed on five European Union lawmakers in retaliation against the bloc’s defense of Uyghur Muslims in the far western Xinjiang region, the EU parliament said on Wednesday.

Beijing imposed a series of measures in March 2021 after the EU, Britain, Canada and the United States launched coordinated sanctions against officials in China over human rights abuses against Uyhgurs in Xinjiang.

Five EU lawmakers were targeted as part of China’s retaliation: Michael Gahler, Raphael Glucksmann, Ilhan Kyuchyuk and Miriam Lexmann, as well as Reinhard Butikofer, who is no longer a member of the parliament.

They were banned from entering Chinese territory and the move led the parliament to halt all official dialogue with China and hold up an investment deal that EU lawmakers had been due to endorse.

The sanctions lifting was negotiated by European Parliament President Roberta Metsola. It comes amid an easing of tensions between the EU and China since U.S. President Donald Trump hiked tariffs against them on April 2.

Are we tired of winning yet? do you want more?

EU trade chief says accelerating free trade talks with Asia

China is meeting with the European Union in Switzerland they are working on a deal to lift more restrictions and have quotas so China cannot flood their markets. China is signing deals like a celebrity at a fan fest. So much winning for China!!!!

[Rasulis]

Oh shut the fuck up you lying fascist.

Give us one example of the pooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooor Nazis being deprived of their civil rights.

Breaking THE FUCKING LAW and then being prosecuted for it is not a deprivation of your civil rights. And being a Nazi is (in many places) illegal and if it's not, it should be.

Nazis are not entitled to respect. They are not entitled to civil discourse. They are not entitled to being taken seriously. And they are ESPECIALLY NOT ENTITLED TO ENGAGE IN POLITICAL DISCOURSE. All that went out the window circa the time they marched the first people into a death camp.

You're just fucking lying. Jesus fuck dude. Take the fucking L. You whiny Nazis.

Why do we care how EU government treats Nazis? The subject of this thread is "Trump Focused Discussion." Personally, I am a US citizen, and I live in the US, and I don't give a hoot how Nazis are treated in EU. I care about the US turning into a crazy fascist country. Not to mention having a lunatic as a president.

[Breccia]

Trump withdraws Surgeon General nomination.

The nominee until one hour ago was the sister-in-law of Michael Waltz, Trump's NSA until a few days ago. There were increasing reports that she lied on her resume, here is one of them. She said her medical degree was from the University of Arkansas and it wasn't.

"Who would lie and say they got their degree in fuckin' Arkansas?"

Someoe who got their degree in the Carribean, apparently.

"Well at least the new person is qualified and trustworthy."

She is a frequent critic of the American medical system that she will be put in a position to directly damage on purpose.

"Well at least she's not a product of nepotism."

Her brother is the top advisor of RFK Jr. and was recommended by Tucker Carlson, known nondoctor.

Casey has impeccable ‘MAHA’ credentials, and will work closely with our wonderful Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., to ensure a successful implementation of our Agenda in order to reverse the Chronic Disease Epidemic, and ensure Great Health, in the future, for ALL Americans

- Trump on the topic

"MAHA?"

Make America Healthy Again, so named by a 300 pound man who can barely walk or remember his name.

"What are her credentials?"