Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Gabriel]

Macron wisely declined trumps offer to join his board of grift. Trumps answer? 200% tarrifs on French wine and champagne.

Does this retard actually enforce these tariffs or does he just shout them out as stress relief when people don't buy into his retarded ideas?

[Malkiah]

In any sane universe one would say that Americans should feel outraged and betrayed but...we don't live in that universe,don't we?

we do, it's just that:
A. half of americans are outraged, and only half because the other half are flat out nazis and roll with this shit for funsies.
B. US government is structured in such a way, on purpose, that 50% control of the government means you can go full blown nazi with the government, but 50% oppositional control of the government means you can't do anything to stop the other half going full blown nazi.
this is the intended design of US government, it was always supposed to facilitate this sort of thing happening - it's what the founders wanted, but they had to lie to sell it to the rubes and so you have the whole myth about "freedom" and shit.

the US has always just been another reich waiting to happen in terms of how its government is structured, and its culture was successfully conditioned to be highly ineffective at stopping it once that happened.
but, that isn't to say people aren't outraged - the problem is that they don't have any effective tools (either personally or institutionally) with which to express that outrage in a way that actually accomplishes anything quantifiable.

[DarkTZeratul]

US government is structured in such a way, on purpose, that 50% control of the government means you can go full blown nazi with the government, but 50% oppositional control of the government means you can't do anything to stop the other half going full blown nazi.
this is the intended design of US government, it was always supposed to facilitate this sort of thing happening - it's what the founders wanted, but they had to lie to sell it to the rubes and so you have the whole myth about "freedom" and shit.

You can cut the bullshit. You sound like an edgy teenager who just realized "America might be bad, actually" spouting off whatever uninformed opinions you find that match your newfound realization. This isn't remotely by design. It is, in many ways, entirely antithetical to design. It's not a problem of "the founders designed the system to go Nazi", it's a problem of "the founders were too short-sighted to anticipate hyperpartisan bullshit." The founders assumed that people in government would generally be acting in good faith, and also that if the president deigned to go off the fucking deep end then Congress would kick him to the curb. And, moreover, they assumed impeachment would not be an uncommon occurrence, which is why the Constitution's reasoning for doing so is so vague and open-ended. They certainly did not design the system to ensure that the president could ignore Congress entirely and wipe his ass with the Constitution so long as a majority of Congress was happy to let him, because the very idea that Congress would NOT act to restrain a tyrannical president seemed ridiculous to them. Because they were, you should remember, a group of people who just fought for and won independence from their tyrannical king. "What if a majority of Congress wants a tyrannical president?" was just not a question any of them thought to ask.

Should they have? Possibly, but it's important to note that this simply wasn't a scenario that had ever come up in their lifetimes, and probably not in any histories they had ever read. Moreover, it's impossible to design a system that's completely immune to ratfucking. Put simply, the system is working in that there are people whose job it is to stop Trump, with the authority to stop Trump, and the ability to enforce their authority. However, those people are refusing to do so because they're allies of Trump, and no amount of carefully constructed clauses will ever be able to prevent the watchmen from refusing to watch.

[alach]

Its a busy day. Heres a mouthful of a headline.
Trump calls Rutte, sets Greenland summit, leaks Macron text, taunts Canada, slams UK

U.S. President Donald Trump posted overnight that he’d spoken to NATO chief Mark Rutte, agreed to a meeting in Davos with key players on Greenland — then leaked an apparent text message from French President Emmanuel Macron, shared a map of the Western Hemisphere showing Canada (and Venezuela) as American, and berated Britain for ceding a military base in the Indian Ocean.

And breathe.

“I had a very good telephone call with Mark Rutte, the Secretary General of NATO, concerning Greenland,” Trump wrote. “I agreed to a meeting of the various parties in Davos, Switzerland. As I expressed to everyone, very plainly, Greenland is imperative for National and World Security. There can be no going back — On that, everyone agrees!”
Trump has stepped up his threats to seize Greenland in recent days, announcing he will impose 10 percent tariffs on eight European countries that have mobilized to try and block the U.S. president’s extraterritorial ambitions.

The tariff announcement has triggered an ongoing scramble among European leaders to come up with a response to Trump.

Macron, in a text message that Trump screenshotted on social media, purportedly wrote to the U.S. leader: “My friend, We are totally in line on Syria. We can do great things on Iran. I do not understand what you are doing on Greenland.

God I wish people would stop capitulating to this guy. Don't they know the first rule of dealing with bullies? Also, I'm sure all these politicians kissing the ring-pop of trump constituents want them to stand up to trump as well. Like who doesn't at this point? Get some balls!

[Mayhem]

Its a busy day. Heres a mouthful of a headline.
Trump calls Rutte, sets Greenland summit, leaks Macron text, taunts Canada, slams UK


God I wish people would stop capitulating to this guy. Don't they know the first rule of dealing with bullies? Also, I'm sure all these politicians kissing the ring-pop of trump constituents want them to stand up to trump as well. Like who doesn't at this point? Get some balls!

Dude, this might come as a surprise, but European leaders generally don't want to hurt their own countries. If a little sweet talking is enough to keep Trump from doing something completely bonkers, then that's expected from them. It helps absolutely nobody to act just as seemingly headless as the Trump administration.

Also, the UK didn't cede a military base in the Indian Ocean.

[Draco-Onis]

Macron wisely declined trumps offer to join his board of grift. Trumps answer? 200% tarrifs on French wine and champagne.

I don't see why he would decline Trump's generous offer to bribe him 1 billion dollars to sit over the corpses of children to build an oligarch playground.

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Dude, this might come as a surprise, but European leaders generally don't want to hurt their own countries. If a little sweet talking is enough to keep Trump from doing something completely bonkers, then that's expected from them. It helps absolutely nobody to act just as seemingly headless as the Trump administration.

Also, the UK didn't cede a military base in the Indian Ocean.

We should all keep in my that Trump's threat amounts to do what I want or I will shoot average American citizens, tariffs hurt the US not foreign countries. We already have high inflation every tariff is a bullet to our wallet.

[Gorsameth]

I don't see why he would decline Trump's generous offer to bribe him 1 billion dollars to sit over the corpses of children to build an oligarch playground.

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We should all keep in my that Trump's threat amounts to do what I want or I will shoot average American citizens, tariffs hurt the US not foreign countries. We already have high inflation every tariff is a bullet to our wallet.

Yes but no.

If you put a 200% tariff on french wine then Americans will pay more for wine. But the french are also selling less wine to the US. Because its a luxury good the US can do without. The french can find other people willing to buy their wine but those trades are not set up and they may pay less.

[Dontrike]

Macron refuses to join Trump's "Board of Peace," the same one he invited Putin to, and now he wants to tariff wine and champagne 200%.

U.S. President Donald Trump has threatened to slap a hefty 200 percent tariff on French wine and champagne if France refuses his invitation to join the newly formed "Board of Peace", as reported by the Jerusalem Post. The board, initially created to supervise the reconstruction of war-ravaged Gaza, seems to have a wider remit according to its charter.

Trump's tarrif threat is a response to French President Emmanuel Macron's apparent hesitation to participate in the initiative. "I'll put a 200 percent tariff on his wines and champagnes. And he'll join. But he doesn't have to join," Trump stated, referring to the French president.

He added, "No-one wants him because he's going to be out of office very soon," taking a jab at the President of France. A source close to Macron informed AFP that France "does not intend to answer favorably" to the invitation, pointing out that the board's charter "goes beyond the sole framework of Gaza."

The threat of a French wine tariff is just one facet of a larger diplomatic disagreement revolving around Greenland, a semi-autonomous Danish territory that Trump has repeatedly claimed the U.S. must control for strategic reasons.

Trump has threatened to impose tariffs of up to 25% on eight European countries, including Denmark, France, Germany, and the UK, unless Greenland is ceded to U.S. control.

European nations condemn these "unacceptable" tactics, reports the Express US.

European leaders have firmly condemned Trump's tariff threats, with German and French finance ministers stating that Europe will not be intimidated by such measures. They described the actions as "unacceptable" and are preparing retaliatory responses.

French President Emmanuel Macron denounced the tariff threats as having "no place in this context", pledging that Europeans will respond "in a united and coordinated manner" to protect sovereignty and uphold legal standards.

The "Board of Peace" is a recently established international organization endorsed by the United Nations Security Council last November to assist in overseeing and maintaining the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

Trump has extended invitations to several world leaders to participate on the board, including Russian President Vladimir Putin, UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer, and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer described the notion of imposing tariffs over a political disagreement as "completely wrong", maintaining that disputes should be settled through dialogue rather than economic coercion.

Swedish leaders similarly rejected the approach, asserting that Europe will not permit itself to be bullied by U.S. actions.

As diplomatic tensions continue to mount, the international community is monitoring closely to observe how Europe will counter Trump's unprecedented tariff threats and whether the "Board of Peace" will emerge as a new point of contention in the ongoing battle for global influence and authority.

[alach]

Dude, this might come as a surprise, but European leaders generally don't want to hurt their own countries. If a little sweet talking is enough to keep Trump from doing something completely bonkers, then that's expected from them. It helps absolutely nobody to act just as seemingly headless as the Trump administration.

Also, the UK didn't cede a military base in the Indian Ocean.

My point is, that they already spent a term and a year coddling him and he still turns around and slaps them all with more threats. Trump can flip on a dime for the slightest grievance.
The opposition leader from Venezuela gave him her peace prize and he gave her a pat on the head and a swag bag.
Fool the world once, shame on trump, fool the world twice, shame on the world, three times - its time for trump to be ostracized.

[Draco-Onis]

Yes but no.

If you put a 200% tariff on french wine then Americans will pay more for wine. But the french are also selling less wine to the US. Because its a luxury good the US can do without. The french can find other people willing to buy their wine but those trades are not set up and they may pay less.

There's the side effects of tariffs on wine which will be other countries and US producers jacking up their prices to milk more profit which is what happens because capitalism something something. Most countries have been scrambling to make trade deals amongst themselves to cut out the US, Canada is the latest to do so. The world is moving on and his tariff threats matter less and less since the world is basically writing us off.

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Macron refuses to join Trump's "Board of Peace," the same one he invited Putin to, and now he wants to tariff wine and champagne 200%.

I wonder if Putin will pay the 1 billion dollar bribe eh who am I kidding it's his Putty pie he gets in for free.

[Shpriest]

... no amount of carefully constructed clauses will ever be able to prevent the watchmen from refusing to watch.

Well, what you fail to understand and whats so infuriating for anyone outside of the US is, that YOU THE FUCKING PEOPLE are the final watchmen and you are the ones refusing to watch and act. You keep pointing your fingers at the system and claim there is nothing YOU can do, but thats just plain chicken shit. Get of your lazy arses and kick them out, its that simple. Millions of people all over the world did it before you, but for some fucked up reason you guys are so special that somehow its impossible.

[Mayhem]

My point is, that they already spent a term and a year coddling him and he still turns around and slaps them all with more threats. Trump can flip on a dime for the slightest grievance.
The opposition leader from Venezuela gave him her peace prize and he gave her a pat on the head and a swag bag.
Fool the world once, shame on trump, fool the world twice, shame on the world, three times - its time for trump to be ostracized.

Europe in general is aware that we could hurt the US, like seriously, but it also would hurt us, so as long as he just does his stupid thing and the US doesn't actually turn into a dictatorship, it is viewed as a you problem that sometimes spills a bit over.

Also, giving Europe more time to get things sorted is good, not bad.

[Malkiah]

Well, what you fail to understand and whats so infuriating for anyone outside of the US is, that YOU THE FUCKING PEOPLE are the final watchmen and you are the ones refusing to watch and act.

i see where you're coming from with this and to a certain extent i agree with you, but the tricky part is something i've been talking about for over 10 years now...
the thing in the US that needs to be acted against is regressive ideology, in this particular instance a strain of fascistic totalitarianism.
and history teaches us that once this starts in a country's government, it does not end in any other way except wide-scale violence and often involving other countries who are having to step in.

strikes or general disruptions won't work in this situation because the US economy (at the top where it matters) isn't based on manufacturing or any kind of production or operation and so we the people can't really stick it to them by rioting, because the whole point of commerce shut downs is to hit them in the pocket book and the US economy right now is built in a way the oligarchs are insulated from that.
then there is the fact that in the US since there is zero social safety net and your wages are the only resources you have access to most people are a couple of days of missed work away from being homeless.

so sure you only need, what is it, 3.5% of a population to strike? so that's like 11 million people give or take?
the 11 million people in the US with enough resources to both strike and not lose their house are the people who aren't going to strike.
and this is where another issue comes in, that the US there is no culture or social fabric of community care, you can't reliably or consistently whip up a neighborhood collaboration in any given area because that sort of thing just isn't done here and you'd have people who would resist that idea even if they wanted to strike, and also there's no history in the US of the efficacy of community resource pooling so people don't inherently trust the idea.

protests and demonstrations won't work because the effectiveness of those are predicated on the people at the stop giving a single shit about the issues being protested over, and that is not currently the case.

the US constitution expressly forbids recall of elected senate or house of representative members, they can only be removed from office via death, impeachment, or resignation.

so as far as i can tell, you're just left with violence, and given that fascism is a host-killing parasite that does not go quietly into that good night we're talking about murderous violence.
so what you're expecting is a citizen rebellion against an entrenched fascist government with complete (as far as we know) control over the police and military.
which of course can and does happen, once a certain percentage of a population is in material crisis... and it absolutely never, EVER happens before that.
not once in recorded human history has there ever been a large scale social revolt in the absence of a critical mass of material crisis, it's simply not a thing that happens.
(that i'm aware of, but i'm just a normie who looks into history when it piques my interest but i'm no means a scholar. if you can cite an example of a large scale social uprising that happened spontaneously absent a critical mass of material crisis, i'd love for you to share it please)

You keep pointing your fingers at the system and claim there is nothing YOU can do, but thats just plain chicken shit. Get of your lazy arses and kick them out, its that simple.

as explained above, it's not that simple.
i get why people think it is that simple, and i'm not typing any of this to say "it's impossible" or to shut down the idea that change can happen, i'm just trying to explain why unfortunately it really isn't "just that simple".

if you disagree with my assessment above i'd love to hear your thoughts on which points are incorrect.

Millions of people all over the world did it before you, but for some fucked up reason you guys are so special that somehow its impossible.

they absolutely have, yes... once a critical mass point of material crisis has been reached.
and just like countless millions from throughout history, the US people will eventually reach that point and it will happen in the US.

pointing out that there are real and quantifiable logistical issues with "just do something!" is not the same thing as saying it's impossible, and i dearly wish some of you people could take a moment out of your busy lives to give that statement some consideration.

[thilicen]

Norway says no to joining Trump's board of corruption. Let's see what the cunt will put tariffs on next.

[Gabriel]

Norway says no to joining Trump's board of corruption. Let's see what the cunt will put tariffs on next.

Quick, think like a mouth breathing retard. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think or Norwegian products?

[Malkiah]

Europe in general is aware that we could hurt the US, like seriously, but it also would hurt us, so as long as he just does his stupid thing and the US doesn't actually turn into a dictatorship, it is viewed as a you problem that sometimes spills a bit over.

Also, giving Europe more time to get things sorted is good, not bad.

the rest of the world is sure in a bind here, perhaps europe more so just due to the ties it has.
IMO the best thing for everyone else in the world to do is to start cutting off the US and isolating it, because a governmental implosion is coming to US society one way or another in the next decade or two and it's either going to be everyone's problem while the fascists try to use the world as a distraction, or it's going to be just an internal problem where the US effectively eats itself.

i'm using assorted internet tools to try and research it this morning just for comparative history... is anyone aware of a nascent regressive government starting to take hold in a society and then being stopped without significant violence?
has there ever been a case where a country started down this road and it ended peacefully with a return to normalcy?
does this descent into fascism ever end except in massive disruption of the social order of the host country, and probably collateral damage to several other countries?

obviously regressive ideological movements can be stymied before they become embedded in government, but at this point in the US i calculate it might be irreversible without a widespread systemic shock.

[Veggie50]

the rest of the world is sure in a bind here, perhaps europe more so just due to the ties it has.
IMO the best thing for everyone else in the world to do is to start cutting off the US and isolating it, because a governmental implosion is coming to US society one way or another in the next decade or two and it's either going to be everyone's problem while the fascists try to use the world as a distraction, or it's going to be just an internal problem where the US effectively eats itself.

i'm using assorted internet tools to try and research it this morning just for comparative history... is anyone aware of a nascent regressive government starting to take hold in a society and then being stopped without significant violence?
has there ever been a case where a country started down this road and it ended peacefully with a return to normalcy?
does this descent into fascism ever end except in massive disruption of the social order of the host country, and probably collateral damage to several other countries?

obviously regressive ideological movements can be stymied before they become embedded in government, but at this point in the US i calculate it might be irreversible without a widespread systemic shock.

We Dutch did!

Or well... We ate the prime minister...

But other than that not much bloodshed.

Bet Trump's horribly chewy though...

[Malkiah]

We Dutch did!

Or well... We ate the prime minister...

But other than that not much bloodshed.

Bet Trump's horribly chewy though...

lol ok my fault for not being more specific... any examples that are say less than 350 years old and are using modern socioeconomic and governmental systems, and not predicated on a mob wandering by while they're outside.

[Breccia]

The french can find other people willing to buy their wine but those trades are not set up and they may pay less.

I look forward to Team Trump saying, under oath, that French wine is a threat to National Security Lol.

[Mayhem]

the rest of the world is sure in a bind here, perhaps europe more so just due to the ties it has.
IMO the best thing for everyone else in the world to do is to start cutting off the US and isolating it, because a governmental implosion is coming to US society one way or another in the next decade or two and it's either going to be everyone's problem while the fascists try to use the world as a distraction, or it's going to be just an internal problem where the US effectively eats itself.

i'm using assorted internet tools to try and research it this morning just for comparative history... is anyone aware of a nascent regressive government starting to take hold in a society and then being stopped without significant violence?
has there ever been a case where a country started down this road and it ended peacefully with a return to normalcy?
does this descent into fascism ever end except in massive disruption of the social order of the host country, and probably collateral damage to several other countries?

obviously regressive ideological movements can be stymied before they become embedded in government, but at this point in the US i calculate it might be irreversible without a widespread systemic shock.

The situation in the US helps two-fold: first, it is so obviously stupid that it even turns away our own fascists, at least some, and second, everyone else sees the US for what it is and understands the problems of capitalism more easily.