1. #19041
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Because we can't convict someone for being "shady". Otherwise Trump would have been in jail 40 years ago. He can't be forced to release his returns publicy even if the public thinks he may have done something wrong. However, as Orbitus says above, I believe he is still beholden to certain official requests. I wasn't aware that the Ways and Means committee had requested them (it's hard to keep up with all of the Trump news the past two days, let alone two years), but if he's refusing them then THAT is absolutely not okay.
    My main point is how us as a society (or as a Trump supporter in general) how can you just let shady shit slide when you are talking about the president of the USA because it's ''technically'' not directly illegal? He is going to the damn supreme court to fight the LAWFUL request for his tax returns and all his base will say is, "Good! Screw them democrat libtards!", like what? Obviously this man has more skeletons in his closet than haunted house during off-season yet republicans don't seem to care that they house the most corrupt politician in modern history, and that is saying something! It is beyond ridiculous that he holds any public office what so ever, never mind the most powerful office in the world.

    Most conservatives will fight tooth and nail for their guns because one day they ''may need to defend themselves from invaders or the government yeehaw!" but they sure are willing to just stand by take all the shit their president serves them, even when he is directly acting against their best interests such as with taxes or health plan (or the lack thereof lol). Go figure.

    He planted a conservative supreme court, and planted a stooge for AG, and he is using the hell out of them for his benefit now and nobody seems to be batting an eye lash about it. Of course Barr is going to say there is no obstruction of justice that was why he was appointed in the first place.

    Sorry I kinda went on a bit of a tangent there, the hypocrisy just irritates the shit out of me.
    Last edited by matheney2k; 2019-04-06 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #19042
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I'm not a Trump supporter or a Republican, but I *think* so far he's done nothing wrong with respect to releasing his tax returns (if that's what you're referring to). It's not a requirement for politicians/presidents to release them...it's just "tradition" that they do to prove no wrongdoing in that area. Him fighting like hell to keep his returns private--while absolutely shady as hell--IS, technically, okay.
    If something is shady as all hell then by definition it can't be okay. When you smell something awful in the basement you don't go "it's fine" you look for it and find the source.

    You don't go to the Supreme Court to fight something that can be legally done, something that is both legal and NOT shady, just because. You only fight this hard because something is far more than just "shady" in it, but something truly damning.
    Last edited by Dontrike; 2019-04-06 at 01:58 PM.

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  3. #19043
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Sorry I kinda went on a bit of a tangent there, the hypocrisy just irritates the shit out of me.
    Again, I'm neither a Trump supporter nor a Republican. I'm not arguing that everything is fine, I was just saying that legally he's in the right not to publicly release his tax returns (but not if he's refusing them to government officials who have the right to see them). I'm not saying it's "okay" in the sense that we can ignore it because it doesn't matter--it absolutely does. I was just responding to the "how can he get away with it" part of Tiase's post: he gets away with it because it's legal. And, as we see this past week and as Orbitus has pointed out, he hasn't really gotten away with it yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    If something is shady as all hell then by definition it can't be okay. When you smell something awful in the basement you don't go "it's fine" you look for it and find the source.

    You don't go to the Supreme Court to fight something that can be legally done, something that is both legal and NOT shady, just because. You only fight this hard because something is far more than just "shady" in it, but something truly damning.
    See above.

    I want him raked over the coals as much as the next person with more than two brain cells to rub together. Him being an abhorrent little shitstain is not something new--I've hated the dickhead for around 40 years now. But he needs to be nailed through the system and not based on hunches and feelings.

    Also, let's not get pedantic on the word "okay". I was referring to the legal sense and I think it was made pretty clear in the post.
    Last edited by Benggaul; 2019-04-06 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Quote mishap

  4. #19044
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I'm not a Trump supporter or a Republican, but I *think* so far he's done nothing wrong with respect to releasing his tax returns (if that's what you're referring to). It's not a requirement for politicians/presidents to release them...it's just "tradition" that they do to prove no wrongdoing in that area. Him fighting like hell to keep his returns private--while absolutely shady as hell--IS, technically, okay.
    What he's done wrong is lie to the american people. I know that people don't seem to care about that anymore, but I think it's important. He initially said if he won he'd release them .. then switched to the audit excuse. You really think ALL his taxes for the last 10 years are STILL under audit? It's a complete sham, and the fact that republicans are so willing to swallow that lie is shameful.

  5. #19045
    Scarab Lord Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    What he's done wrong is lie to the american people. I know that people don't seem to care about that anymore, but I think it's important. He initially said if he won he'd release them .. then switched to the audit excuse. You really think ALL his taxes for the last 10 years are STILL under audit? It's a complete sham, and the fact that republicans are so willing to swallow that lie is shameful.
    Plus the IRS has said "Yeah, No. An audit doesn't stop you from releasing them."
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  6. #19046
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    My main point is how us as a society (or as a Trump supporter in general) how can you just let shady shit slide when you are talking about the president of the USA because it's ''technically'' not directly illegal? He is going to the damn supreme court to fight the LAWFUL request for his tax returns and all his base will say is, "Good! Screw them democrat libtards!", like what? Obviously this man has more skeletons in his closet than haunted house during off-season yet republicans don't seem to care that they house the most corrupt politician in modern history, and that is saying something! It is beyond ridiculous that he holds any public office what so ever, never mind the most powerful office in the world.

    Most conservatives will fight tooth and nail for their guns because one day they ''may need to defend themselves from invaders or the government yeehaw!" but they sure are willing to just stand by take all the shit their president serves them, even when he is directly acting against their best interests such as with taxes or health plan (or the lack thereof lol). Go figure.

    He planted a conservative supreme court, and planted a stooge for AG, and he is using the hell out of them for his benefit now and nobody seems to be batting an eye lash about it. Of course Barr is going to say there is no obstruction of justice that was why he was appointed in the first place.

    Sorry I kinda went on a bit of a tangent there, the hypocrisy just irritates the shit out of me.
    The best explanation I've seen on this subject (not Trump's tax returns specifically, but the ideological divide that results in this kind of thing) actually turns out to be relatively simple, but it explains pretty much all the confusion, on both sides, in the USA.

    Left-wing types generally have deeply-held principles that they abide by; justice, equity, etc. Those principles are how they evaluate systems and politicians; do they serve those principles, or break them? If they break them, they become untenable, and are swiftly moved against, without any real regret or hesitation. For instance, see Anthony Weiner; he was a popular politician among Democrats, highly visible, and then his sexual shenanigans came out, and everyone on the left pretty collectively went "eww, no", and he was disgraced and out and nobody protested. Not even Weiner, really.

    Right-wing types, on the other hand, aren't focused primarily on principles. Their root is power and control. Do these principles or these politicians help us secure and maintain political power and control? Then it is "good" and we will overlook their problems, because they serve our purpose. This is why they will defend Trump, despite his many flaws; none of those flaws specifically violate the power system they are building. It's why they fight against the ACA (it's an establishment of Democrat power and control), but have no plan to replace it with (they can't agree on policy, and aren't even really, fundamentally, interested in policy).

    This dichotomy runs deep, and is why neither side can really understand the other's position; left wingers can't grasp why someone would be so without principle, and right wingers can't grasp why someone won't be practically-minded about securing advantage. This is why Trump still retains support; his bloviating seems powerful and in control. Democrats haven't made anything stick, so the principles behind those efforts simply do no matter; Trump is still President, neener neener we win, and we're gonna keep winning. It's why they freak out so much over the possibility that legal troubles will bring him down; they don't care about the violations, they care about losing the power and control Trump represents.

  7. #19047
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    What he's done wrong is lie to the american people. I know that people don't seem to care about that anymore, but I think it's important. He initially said if he won he'd release them .. then switched to the audit excuse. You really think ALL his taxes for the last 10 years are STILL under audit? It's a complete sham, and the fact that republicans are so willing to swallow that lie is shameful.
    *sighs* *removes imaginary glasses* *rubs temples* Again, for the last time, I'm talking about from a legal standpoint with respect to releasing the taxes to the public. Look at my post history. I think he's a slimy piece of shit and deserves every bit of misfortune coming at him. Of course it's bad that he lied about it and is continuing to hide them and play games, but legally he doesn't have to let the public see them. The House Ways and Means however, as Orbitus pointed out, DOES have a legal right to them.

    I'm on your side, guys. Might want to redirect that vitriol elsewhere.

  8. #19048
    A New York man is in custody after having been arrested and charged with threatening to assault and murder Rep. Ilhan Omar because of her Muslim faith, according to a criminal complaint and accompanying affidavit. https://t.co/sXfaGoSWl7 https://t.co/s0Mq9MdvJa
    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1114560898306322433?s=19

    When Trump is your President.

    But wait why are you blaming the President?

    Trump supporter Patrick Carlineo charged with threatening to kill Rep. Ilhan Omar. Carlineo told the FBI "that he was a patriot, that he loves the President, and that he hates radical Muslims in our government." Criminal complaint: https://t.co/y3nWvIhCgc
    https://twitter.com/jonswaine/status...731066880?s=19
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  9. #19049
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    *sighs* *removes imaginary glasses* *rubs temples* Again, for the last time, I'm talking about from a legal standpoint with respect to releasing the taxes to the public. Look at my post history. I think he's a slimy piece of shit and deserves every bit of misfortune coming at him. Of course it's bad that he lied about it and is continuing to hide them and play games, but legally he doesn't have to let the public see them. The House Ways and Means however, as Orbitus pointed out, DOES have a legal right to them.

    I'm on your side, guys. Might want to redirect that vitriol elsewhere.
    LOL, that wasn't vitriol. Enhance your calm, dude

  10. #19050
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    LOL, that wasn't vitriol. Enhance your calm, dude
    My apologies, that wasn't directed so much at you as EVERYONE who decided I needed to be taken to task over what I wrote in the first post. :P

  11. #19051
    Seeing Trump freak out about the Mueller report, after claiming it exonerated him, is pretty entertaining.

  12. #19052
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The best explanation I've seen on this subject (not Trump's tax returns specifically, but the ideological divide that results in this kind of thing) actually turns out to be relatively simple, but it explains pretty much all the confusion, on both sides, in the USA.

    Left-wing types generally have deeply-held principles that they abide by; justice, equity, etc. Those principles are how they evaluate systems and politicians; do they serve those principles, or break them? If they break them, they become untenable, and are swiftly moved against, without any real regret or hesitation. For instance, see Anthony Weiner; he was a popular politician among Democrats, highly visible, and then his sexual shenanigans came out, and everyone on the left pretty collectively went "eww, no", and he was disgraced and out and nobody protested. Not even Weiner, really.

    Right-wing types, on the other hand, aren't focused primarily on principles. Their root is power and control. Do these principles or these politicians help us secure and maintain political power and control? Then it is "good" and we will overlook their problems, because they serve our purpose. This is why they will defend Trump, despite his many flaws; none of those flaws specifically violate the power system they are building. It's why they fight against the ACA (it's an establishment of Democrat power and control), but have no plan to replace it with (they can't agree on policy, and aren't even really, fundamentally, interested in policy).

    This dichotomy runs deep, and is why neither side can really understand the other's position; left wingers can't grasp why someone would be so without principle, and right wingers can't grasp why someone won't be practically-minded about securing advantage. This is why Trump still retains support; his bloviating seems powerful and in control. Democrats haven't made anything stick, so the principles behind those efforts simply do no matter; Trump is still President, neener neener we win, and we're gonna keep winning. It's why they freak out so much over the possibility that legal troubles will bring him down; they don't care about the violations, they care about losing the power and control Trump represents.
    It comes down to a root level fear that conservatives have. Being conservative, by almost literal definition, is fear of change. The right fear a lot. They fear anything different from way of life to the color of their neighbors. Virtually all of their policies stem from fear...huge defense spending, guns, walls, bans on immigrants from this country or that religion.....is all a way to stop the change they fear.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  13. #19053
    Mechagnome Seiklis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It comes down to a root level fear that conservatives have. Being conservative, by almost literal definition, is fear of change. The right fear a lot. They fear anything different from way of life to the color of their neighbors. Virtually all of their policies stem from fear...huge defense spending, guns, walls, bans on immigrants from this country or that religion.....is all a way to stop the change they fear.
    This is a very good video on the subject


  14. #19054
    Pandaren Monk D Luniz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I meant with regards to releasing them to the public, which is what I thought they might be talking about. They didn't really specify so I was forced to assume.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because we can't convict someone for being "shady". Otherwise Trump would have been in jail 40 years ago. He can't be forced to release his returns publicy even if the public thinks he may have done something wrong. However, as Orbitus says above, I believe he is still beholden to certain official requests. I wasn't aware that the Ways and Means committee had requested them (it's hard to keep up with all of the Trump news the past two days, let alone two years), but if he's refusing them then THAT is absolutely not okay.
    having access to information that might be evidence in a crime isnt being convicted
    and I wish people would stop letting people act like an investigation is the same as being sent to prison

  15. #19055
    Quote Originally Posted by Seiklis View Post
    This is a very good video on the subject

    That was amazing. Thank you.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  16. #19056
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Seeing Trump freak out about the Mueller report, after claiming it exonerated him, is pretty entertaining.
    What's even more fun is his followers trying their best to also say the report has nothing in it. They are basically reading a cliff note version of the cliff notes of a book and thinking that they've read every word and understand it.

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  17. #19057
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It comes down to a root level fear that conservatives have. Being conservative, by almost literal definition, is fear of change. The right fear a lot. They fear anything different from way of life to the color of their neighbors. Virtually all of their policies stem from fear...huge defense spending, guns, walls, bans on immigrants from this country or that religion.....is all a way to stop the change they fear.
    This is not at all accurate. In most cases, it is that the purported changes are bad ideas, seductive as the may be. And introduced changes need to be gradual.

    Fear certainly is the motivating factor of the "White MAGA Guy, am afraid of everything" gun cult deplorable crowd, but they're not conservatives. They just call themselves that because they define themselves against liberals.

    Most of the conservatives on this forum aren't conservatives in the slightest. They're just anti-government, paranoid gun nuts who hate black people, brown people, LGBTs, the educated, the successful, and immigrants.... basically anyone who isn't their deplorable selves.

    The word conservative has been so badly tainted by those people though. And to be honest, I'm getting sick of explaining it. I have no regrets about describing myself as a conservative. What progressives want for this country has, and has had, very little appeal to me. But it's becoming more and more problematic to describe myself as a conservative when the word is more and more associated with, well, you know the type.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2019-04-07 at 05:36 AM.

  18. #19058
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    This is not at all accurate. In most cases, it is that the purported changes are bad ideas, seductive as the may be. And introduced changes need to be gradual.
    It is entirely accurate. Conservatism is a fear of the future.

    The changes are bad ideas you say? Opinion.

    Changes need to be gradual? Why, exactly?

    You say such people aren't conservatives. I say you (and establishment GOPers) have been fooling yourselves since Nixon. You made a deal with the devil (in the form of the Religious Right, southern racists, etc).

    The bill has come due.
    "Independence forever!" --- President John Adams
    "America is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own." --- President John Quincy Adams
    "Our Federal Union! It must be preserved!" --- President Andrew Jackson

  19. #19059
    Quote Originally Posted by Realitytrembles View Post
    It is entirely accurate. Conservatism is a fear of the future.

    The changes are bad ideas you say? Opinion.

    Changes need to be gradual? Why, exactly?

    You say such people aren't conservatives. I say you (and establishment GOPers) have been fooling yourselves since Nixon. You made a deal with the devil (in the form of the Religious Right, southern racists, etc).

    The bill has come due.
    If you think Conservatives fear the future and that's what motivate us, it's a small wonder we've spent most of the past 30 years taking progressives to the shed and showing you who daddy is. You don't even understand the nature of your opposite, how the hell could you hope to devise a counter?

    Fortunately, you are not most progressives. Plenty do get it.

    And to be blunt, the "Southern Racists" and "Religious Right" predated my political activity (early 2000s) by about 30 years. I arrived at being a Conservative for my own reasons, and the existence of those groups doesn't change the fact that, to be blunt, I don't look at the progressive platform and think "you know, I think that's what I'm interested in, for myself and this country".


    But I'm not seriously going to debate what constitutes Conservative policy with a guy whose foreign policy lacks object permanence and mostly traffics in slogans he picked up in movies and television, especially since Foreign policy is a principle rationale for my conservatism.

  20. #19060
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    But I'm not seriously going to debate what constitutes Conservative policy with a guy whose foreign policy lacks object permanence and mostly traffics in slogans he picked up in movies and television, especially since Foreign policy is a principle rationale for my conservatism.
    Then don't, but think about this.

    My father voted Republican his entire life from age 18 until he voted for Trump ( he died about 4 months later). He was also a lifelong virulent racist and conservative Christian.

    That is the kind of person that your kingdom of " go slow on changes, thats too fast, etc" is built on. Without their support, the GOP would have ceased to exist.

    I've never voted republican in my life, and never will. Democrat, 3rd party, or independent all the way. Why? Because F people who want to slow down change. Old-fashioned ways, ingrained modes of thinking, and doing things because thats the way its been done are all crap.

    They belong right in that box with my father's bones.
    "Independence forever!" --- President John Adams
    "America is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own." --- President John Quincy Adams
    "Our Federal Union! It must be preserved!" --- President Andrew Jackson

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