View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #20041
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    The fact that the judge has described it as "vexatious" sums it up, really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure that's what the judge meant.
    Again, the judge didn't say that - the person paid to defend Johnson did.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-06-07 at 05:10 PM.

  2. #20042
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    You could've been the first country to hold their politicians accountable for lies and deceiving the public... but of course not. It'll be up to Scandinavia or the Benelux to be the trendsetters as always I suppose.
    Well the reasoning goes that parliament is in charge of holding politicans accountable for the lies they use to get elected.

  3. #20043
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Like all democracies we do hold them to account. If you believe that they are lying don't vote for them - simple really.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, I'm not sure that's what the judge meant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For those of you interested in the legalities and arguments regrading the Johnson case this blog from when the prosecution was first launched has more information.

    http://barristerblogger.com/2018/09/...blicity-stunt/
    That blog is nothing more than the opinion piece of a right-wing barrister.

    Matthew Scott:

    He dislikes nationalism, socialism and greenism in roughly equal measure

    He writes, in the article you linked:

    Of course politicians ought not to lie, but the place to refute dishonest political arguments is in debate, not in a police station interview under caution, or in the Crown Court years later. Indeed, the very idea that political arguments should be “policed” by the state is alarming.

    Nah - not particularly interested.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Again, the judge didn't say that - the person paid to defend Johnson did.
    Yep, sorry - fixed

  4. #20044
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    That blog is nothing more than the opinion piece of a right-wing barrister.

    Matthew Scott:

    He dislikes nationalism, socialism and greenism in roughly equal measure

    He writes, in the article you linked:

    Of course politicians ought not to lie, but the place to refute dishonest political arguments is in debate, not in a police station interview under caution, or in the Crown Court years later. Indeed, the very idea that political arguments should be “policed” by the state is alarming.

    Nah - not particularly interested.
    He's offered a legal opinion on a case which a High Court Judge agrees with. I fail to see how his political leanings are in anyway relevant...

    ...unless... the judge is also one of them right wingers as well!

    Perhaps you could offer an equally expert opinion as to why he is not correct instead of trying to attack his character?

    Anyway if you don't want to read things because you disagree with the political opinions of the author that's entirely down to you.

  5. #20045
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    He's offered a legal opinion on a case which a High Court Judge agrees with. I fail to see how his political leanings are in anyway relevant...

    ...unless... the judge is also one of them right wingers as well!

    Perhaps you could offer an equally expert opinion as to why he is not correct instead of trying to attack his character?

    Anyway if you don't want to read things because you disagree with the political opinions of the author that's entirely down to you.
    Ehrm... I did read it.

    The fact that the case has inevitably failed is not a cause for celebration unless you are in favour of retaining the status quo: our politics dominated by cult of personality allowing charismatic but ultimately flawed politicians blatantly and abhorrently dogwhistling via the rabid right wing press.

    Yep, sure, I didn't expect for one moment this case would get anywhere. Neither will attempts by mature and sane politicians to come to some sort of compromise re. Brexit. Neither will calls for proportional representation.

    The UK will shortly be swimming in a cesspit of its own shit because of the lies of BJ and others. But do carry on defending their right to lie, it's so much more important isn't it.

  6. #20046
    It is possible that the political campaign statements of a Member of Parliament may be given weight because of their source. A listener might conceivably say, 'Because this man is an MP, I trust what he is saying about immigration statistics/climate change/literacy measures.' Whether that is true to any extent of the Claimant is doubtful, given his public profile.
    God bless that argument - Johnson is known to be a serial liar, so no-one is likely to believe what he says is accurate, so he cannot be found guilty of intending to deceive people by lying in public during the referendum campaign, because no-one would believe him anyway.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-06-07 at 06:16 PM.

  7. #20047
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    He didn't email you, specifically, he's not your mate just sending you a casual email. It's an update/newsletter type thing that goes to everyone that signed up for it lol
    Well, people that can barely decipher the headlines of the SUN would actually think like he does. You know the type, the European white trash.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kotuthan View Post
    Looks like the Ford executives were not joking, when they said, that if brexit hurts or threatens their profits they would close UK Plants.
    The Bridgend Plant is to close in 2020. It employs 1,700.
    If a company has to spell it out like that, it's being super friendly like. Of course they'll close a plant as soon as they see a red number connected to the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if Investors and economists aren't about to brand the UK as scorched Earth, do not touch until a few decades have passed.

    The ironic bit is... dumbass Brexiteers keep talking about the dominoe effect killing the EU bit by bit, while the reality is that... if you keep this momentum up, the dominoe effect will actually be companies leaving one after another. I mean, if your parts supplier closes his plant, you can keep importing his stuff at a higher cost, or you can just move your plant elsewhere in the EU, without facing the hassle at all. At the profit of being right within the vastly bigger market.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Almost certainly 3rd gen british citizens but for argument sake any citizen of the commonwealth when in the UK can vote in UK elections.
    So... but when the EU does this "you live here, you vote here", Dribs throws a hissy fit? How cute.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    God bless that argument - Johnson is known to be a serial liar, so no-one is likely to believe what he says is accurate, so he cannot be found guilty of intending to deceive people by lying in public during the referendum campaign, because no-one would believe him anyway.
    Well, I'm torn about this topic. You can't just go around arresting politicians for making promises they can't keep. Mostly, because even the most honest politician will only state what he intends to do. If that's what actually comes out the other end is not entirely up to his powers, given political realities.

    However, this isn't criminally interesting because he lied. Everyone lies. The court should really have asked to hold a trial over actual fraud. They didn't just lie. They lied to swindle themselves into profit. But, alas, swindeling an entire nation is apparently so big, nobody seems to think that's even a valid case.

    Fuck yes, it is. He promised to do something he can't do. Objectively never was able to do. He used that lie to convince A NATION to commit to an action that would let him and his cronies personally profit from investment speculation betting on the demise of the British economy.

    How is this not a clear cut case? Because it's too fucking big. I hope at some point someone has the guts to just call it what it is and bring this to court for the actual crime. And then we can start talking about treason. Selling your country out is the textbook definition of treason.
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  8. #20048
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    The UK will shortly be swimming in a cesspit of its own shit because of the lies of BJ and others. But do carry on defending their right to lie, it's so much more important isn't it.
    I linked a story related to Brexit and that I thought people might find interesting nothing more. I have not offered an opinion one way or the other let alone defended anyone's right to lie so I am not sure why you're falsely claiming that I am continuing to do so.

  9. #20049
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You can't just go around arresting politicians for making promises they can't keep.
    This was not about promises. This was about facts he knowingly lied about.

  10. #20050
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    This was not about promises. This was about facts he knowingly lied about.
    I don't care. Big picture, mate. This isn't about him lying. This is about the profits he and his cronies are racking up with this escapade.

    In other words, there is no law against simple lying (unless you are in special circumstances, like witness in a court etc.).
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  11. #20051
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I don't care. Big picture, mate. This isn't about him lying. This is about the profits he and his cronies are racking up with this escapade.

    In other words, there is no law against simple lying (unless you are in special circumstances, like witness in a court etc.).
    There is one*, but apparently they think it does not apply to MPs because "parliament" will decide their punishment case by case (and decided not to punish BJ).

    *misconduct in public office

  12. #20052
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post

    So... but when the EU does this "you live here, you vote here", Dribs throws a hissy fit? How cute.
    They're picking their battles. First it's the EU (since that was where they had the highest chance of winning.). Then it will be the Asians and other foreigners. Then it will be the multi ethnics. (British + X)

  13. #20053
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Well, they did it once more. They managed to find someone else to blame...

    https://scramnews.com/brexit-party-i...Kr8nwlWJ8zb-UY



    Bad Pakistani!

    The irony is, them leaving the EU won't change anything about those bad Pakistanis.

    Also funny, can Pakistani just vote like that? Don't they have to be British citizens to begin with? In which case, aren't they British instead of Pakistani? So many questions...
    Funny part is, a lot of those "Pakistanis" are there because they served in the British army when they were a colony of the UK. And then another group came over in the 1950s-60s when they were part of the Commonwealth and the UK needed workers.

    So it has literally fuck all to do with the EU and it's just the Brexit party being racist.

  14. #20054
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    In other words, there is no law against simple lying (unless you are in special circumstances, like witness in a court etc.).
    Wat?!

    Arglistige Täuschung im Zivil- und Verwaltungsrecht.

    Don't know if there is something equivalent to malicious deception in British law because they have a very fucked up definition of law, at least in my opinion.
    Last edited by Mayhem; 2019-06-08 at 09:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  15. #20055
    Quote Originally Posted by dathwathal View Post
    There's your problem...the implicit assumption is that we weren't in a cesspit already after a decade of austerity. It is all very middle-class. Voters on the breadline see your prognostications of a doom that already happened to them and literally don't know what you are talking about.

    And yes Boris is a liar. As much of a liar as Tony Blair, Nick Clegg and most other people in politics, many of which that you people voted for and caused this mess in the first place.
    Really, the cesspit I was referring to was one of conflict. But as you've started...

    You do understand that in my 20 years of working I've never once benefitted from the workers' rights you keep banging on about so much. Union protection, State protection, job security, sick pay, paternity leave, holiday pay. Nah... nothing. Diddly fucking squat. Hammond, in particular, has been after my demographic (self-employed sole trader) for his entire period in No.11. Apparently, I don't give enough. Squeeze a little harder.

    Yes, I'm lucky enough to earn a decent income. I give a large percentage of that income to the Crown. That's fine. But there will come a point when I will refuse to pay for the decisions of racist baby boomers, thickie Sun-readers & whining socialists.

    What is your solution to austerity other than borrowing more? Why are you shouting at me? Fuck off and shout at those individuals and companies who evade their taxes. Not me.

  16. #20056
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Really, the cesspit I was referring to was one of conflict. But as you've started...

    You do understand that in my 20 years of working I've never once benefitted from the workers' rights you keep banging on about so much. Union protection, State protection, job security, sick pay, paternity leave, holiday pay. Nah... nothing. Diddly fucking squat. Hammond, in particular, has been after my demographic (self-employed sole trader) for his entire period in No.11. Apparently, I don't give enough. Squeeze a little harder.

    Yes, I'm lucky enough to earn a decent income. I give a large percentage of that income to the Crown. That's fine. But there will come a point when I will refuse to pay for the decisions of racist baby boomers, thickie Sun-readers & whining socialists.

    What is your solution to austerity other than borrowing more? Why are you shouting at me? Fuck off and shout at those individuals and companies who evade their taxes. Not me.
    If you are lucky enough to earn a decent income and give a large percentage of it to the crown then that is your choice.

    The same mechanisms to avoid, not evade, paying large tax bills are open to you as are to me. Only fools ever pay more than 20% income tax, which is not really a large percentage is it.

    If you choose not to take advantage of these and in effect hand your hard earned to thicko sun readers and sofa lounging jeremy kyle fans you have only yourself to blame.

    You can be sure whining socialists are taking advantage of them...why not you?

  17. #20057
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    If you are lucky enough to earn a decent income and give a large percentage of it to the crown then that is your choice.

    The same mechanisms to avoid, not evade, paying large tax bills are open to you as are to me. Only fools ever pay more than 20% income tax, which is not really a large percentage is it.

    If you choose not to take advantage of these and in effect hand your hard earned to thicko sun readers and sofa lounging jeremy kyle fans you have only yourself to blame.

    You can be sure whining socialists are taking advantage of them...why not you?
    You are showing your ignorance again dribbles. Sure, the really high earners can set themselves up to avoid as much tax as they want to. But people like nigel I suspect came under the IR35 umbrella, and have been ring-fenced pretty solidly (and in some cases chased for tax that was "avoided" way back in the past). Don't try and put them in the same category as the millionaires paying pennies, because they aren't, and they can't.

    If you are in the really high-earning group, then that does explain why your understanding of the world is so disconnected. Doesn't explain the rascism, but does give a better handle on where the fascism comes from. Every day we get a clearer picture of you, thanks to your posts.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  18. #20058
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    You are showing your ignorance again dribbles. Sure, the really high earners can set themselves up to avoid as much tax as they want to. But people like nigel I suspect came under the IR35 umbrella, and have been ring-fenced pretty solidly (and in some cases chased for tax that was "avoided" way back in the past). Don't try and put them in the same category as the millionaires paying pennies, because they aren't, and they can't.

    If you are in the really high-earning group, then that does explain why your understanding of the world is so disconnected. Doesn't explain the rascism, but does give a better handle on where the fascism comes from. Every day we get a clearer picture of you, thanks to your posts.
    Well the fairly recent IR35 ruling is fair and people being creative and pretending to be companies when they are really employees to evade, not avoid, tax have been royally caught and stuffed, deservedly so in my opinion.

    Oh the racist bit again, you do make me giggle. Here's something for you. Boris Johnson is of muslim heritage and had an Indian wife. You think he is racist? What about the ethnic diversity of the MEP's and EU governance compared with the UK government, the brexit party? Eh Eh! Come come, explain your way out of that one...

  19. #20059
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Wat?!

    Arglistige Täuschung im Zivil- und Verwaltungsrecht.

    Don't know if there is something equivalent to malicious deception in British law because they have a very fucked up definition of law, at least in my opinion.
    As I said, lying itself is not illegal. The concept exists in law, of course. But what's happening here is that the legal decision achieved through lying to you can be declared void. It doesn't mean that you can't try to lie your way through life. Just means that when someone catches you lying, he can cancel whatever binding promise he made to you based on those lies. There is no actual punishment. The lie itself is not considered "illegal" in itself. But the lie nullifies the binding character of the agreement.

    Also, politicians and their voters don't enter into a contract. There is no legal relationship between them directly. Them lying doesn't really apply to the type of law you mentioned. But as I said, they are acting fraudulently (by lying).

    Am I being too pedantic?
    Last edited by Slant; 2019-06-08 at 01:14 PM.
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  20. #20060
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    As I said, lying itself is not illegal. What you're describing is the concept of achieving something by lying, what's illegal is not that you lie, it's that you manipulate another person into a decision by lying.

    Politicians and their voters don't enter into a contract. There is no legal relationship between them directly. Them lying doesn't really apply to the type of law you mentioned. But as I said, they are acting fraudulently (by lying).
    Interesting, so politicians basing everything on a decision by the populace fraudulently achieved by said politicians isn't some kind of break of contract. Also isn't the personal gain part of the legal definition, you don't actually need a contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Am I being too pedantic?
    yes
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

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