View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #20101
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    The different VAT rates (outside the scope, zero rated, exempt, reduced etc.) are all quite straightforward and do their job - nothing complicated about them at all. They could just do with creating one 0% category instead of three while retaining the 5% reduced category. But that's civil service mentality for you.

    The only slightly complicated thing about VAT is dealing with transactions from other EU countries and the reverse charge mechanism.

    Fed up with companies like Dropbox (IE VAT number) screwing me by charging VAT when they have no right to. You have to have a business subscription to register your VAT number. It's a con.
    And most importantly, VAT is transparent for consumers. Sales Tax isn't. The focus of the EU here is consumer protection. The 2012 market regulation reform has added a wealth of information to provide consumers with the most accurate information about pricing (and comparative pricing) possible.

    Plus, IT infrastructure has been built to work for VAT. Switching to Sales Tax will actually be a far greater headache for business (and their IT and Accounting departments) than the different VAT rates are, unless you are my fucking country where we've changed VAT rates 3 times in the last 4 years and the last time a couple of week ago happened with ONE working day with us having the legislation on our hands . . .
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  2. #20102
    Herald of the Titans Pannonian's Avatar
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    I think BJ is on the right track.

    The money the UK has to pay the EU is the perfect exit strategy for both.

    The EU wont budge on its prinicple, but still will give something to the brits. Money is easier to move than principles. So if BJ gets the same deal as May, with maybe 50% cut on the divorce bill, the EU could probably be ok with that, while BJ could sell this at home as a big win over Brussels.

    You may say that the UK still has to abandon a lot of positions, but i think they could sell such a cut as total victory. I mean, look at some posters here, they'll swallow ANYTHING.

  3. #20103
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And a proportion of that 27% is. From the contributory calculation an EU citizen at 27% VAT would likely pay more than an EU citizen on 17% towards Junckers funsies. Whatever, an EU member country cannot reduce VAT to zero or abolish it, they must let Juncker trouser something. A sovereign nation outside the EU can abolish VAT.
    People from Hungary receive more in funding per person from the EU and pay less to the EU than People from Luxembourg.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  4. #20104
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I think BJ is on the right track.

    The money the UK has to pay the EU is the perfect exit strategy for both.

    The EU wont budge on its prinicple, but still will give something to the brits. Money is easier to move than principles. So if BJ gets the same deal as May, with maybe 50% cut on the divorce bill, the EU could probably be ok with that, while BJ could sell this at home as a big win over Brussels.

    You may say that the UK still has to abandon a lot of positions, but i think they could sell such a cut as total victory. I mean, look at some posters here, they'll swallow ANYTHING.
    hahaha

    You know that the divorce bill isn't free money that can be just tbe reduced right? It's obligations that the UK has agreed upon while being part of the EU

  5. #20105
    Herald of the Titans Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    hahaha

    You know that the divorce bill isn't free money that can be just tbe reduced right? It's obligations that the UK has agreed upon while being part of the EU
    I'm aware of that. But to re-finance projects, re-organize them, or simply get the funds somewhere else, is much easier for the EU to do than giving an inch on their principles. And it is less costly (for the EU) than an unregulated hard berxit fireworks shitshow.

    Just saying that i can see the EU reducing the "divorce bill" rather than the border issue or the major freedoms of movement. And if Boris is already making this divorce bill a topic, he could easily sell it as a win.

  6. #20106
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I think BJ is on the right track.

    The money the UK has to pay the EU is the perfect exit strategy for both.

    The EU wont budge on its prinicple, but still will give something to the brits. Money is easier to move than principles. So if BJ gets the same deal as May, with maybe 50% cut on the divorce bill, the EU could probably be ok with that, while BJ could sell this at home as a big win over Brussels.
    I mean we could use some creative accounting to shift some obligations that are local in the UK so that the UK has to pay them directly and not through the EU and that would cut down the bill significantly. It would be messy to repurpose the existing contracts of course but it should be doable.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  7. #20107
    Herald of the Titans Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean we could use some creative accounting to shift some obligations that are local in the UK so that the UK has to pay them directly and not through the EU and that would cut down the bill significantly. It would be messy to repurpose the existing contracts of course but it should be doable.
    Or something like this. Then BJ can announce to the public how much less money they will give Brussels, and how that was a glorious victory. People who bought the NHS lie, will buy this easily.

  8. #20108
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And most importantly, VAT is transparent for consumers. Sales Tax isn't. The focus of the EU here is consumer protection. The 2012 market regulation reform has added a wealth of information to provide consumers with the most accurate information about pricing (and comparative pricing) possible.
    Can you explain to me how VAT gets to be more transparent to consumers then sales tax?

    As far as i see in most cases consumer just sees "Sales Tax - +xxx.xx" in their bill; how can it be more transparent with VAT?

    Genuinely interested.

    Plus, IT infrastructure has been built to work for VAT. Switching to Sales Tax will actually be a far greater headache for business (and their IT and Accounting departments) than the different VAT rates are, unless you are my fucking country where we've changed VAT rates 3 times in the last 4 years and the last time a couple of week ago happened with ONE working day with us having the legislation on our hands . . .
    ...well, as your example shows, VAT can be a headache as well.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-06-10 at 08:45 AM.

  9. #20109
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Can you explain to me how VAT gets to be more transparent to consumers then sales tax?

    As far as i see in most cases consumer just sees "Sales Tax - +xxx.xx" in their bill; how can it be more transparent with VAT?

    ...well, as your example shows, VAT can be a headache as well.
    AFAIK VAT has to be included in the sticker price, Sales Tax doesn't. So if you want to buy something that is labelled as costing 8.99, then you actually pay 8.99 at the till.

  10. #20110
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler to Baby Sloths View Post
    AFAIK VAT has to be included in the sticker price, Sales Tax doesn't. So if you want to buy something that is labelled as costing 8.99, then you actually pay 8.99 at the till.
    To add to that, the EU regulations also require that beyond VAT, the sticker price also shows price per unit so that the consumer can compare different products more easily; otherwise you need to get a calculator out to compare an 85g pack to a 100g one.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  11. #20111
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler to Baby Sloths View Post
    AFAIK VAT has to be included in the sticker price, Sales Tax doesn't. So if you want to buy something that is labelled as costing 8.99, then you actually pay 8.99 at the till.
    Well, legally compelling to show sales tax and/or final price on sticker as part of consumer protection bill isn't exactly difficult and usually non-controversial (and certainly easier then entirely different tax regime).

    Russia is also running VAT though; but it also has occasional "let's switch to sales tax instead" initiatives.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    To add to that, the EU regulations also require that beyond VAT, the sticker price also shows price per unit so that the consumer can compare different products more easily; otherwise you need to get a calculator out to compare an 85g pack to a 100g one.
    I don't see how it is going to be any different with sales tax.

  12. #20112
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Well, legally compelling to show sales tax and/or final price on sticker as part of consumer protection bill isn't exactly difficult and usually non-controversial (and certainly easier then entirely different tax regime).
    A Sale Tax places the entire burden on cash flows on the final retailer instead of a proportional burden across the supply chain.
    Because the VAT is paid across the supply chain there are several additional benefits; it is much easier to reverse VAT charges since you don't need to adress the tax authority to do so or to make judgments on what is exempt from tax, tax is collected across the supply chain which means the cash flows are more stable for the government (certain large items could be created across months and then sit in storage for quite some time before they are sold; under Sales Tax the government will get nothing until the item is sold to the end user while under VAT the government collects progressively as the item moves in the supply chain).

    And of course any country that has VAT already had the IT infrastructure to observe it so making the call that it is complex and should be simplified does not recognize that it is not at all complex AFTER you build for it. In contrast, moving from VAT to sales tax would require significant changes to accounts.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-06-10 at 09:25 AM.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  13. #20113
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    As far as i see sales tax is easier to manage then VAT (primarily on business end). Complicated rules about VAT is one of most common complaints.

    They aren't exactly the same unless you think "any tax is interchangeable with any other tax".
    So, how are they different then?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I think BJ is on the right track.

    The money the UK has to pay the EU is the perfect exit strategy for both.

    The EU wont budge on its prinicple, but still will give something to the brits. Money is easier to move than principles. So if BJ gets the same deal as May, with maybe 50% cut on the divorce bill, the EU could probably be ok with that, while BJ could sell this at home as a big win over Brussels.

    You may say that the UK still has to abandon a lot of positions, but i think they could sell such a cut as total victory. I mean, look at some posters here, they'll swallow ANYTHING.
    The divorce bill isn't a "bill". It's money the UK already pledged and it already vanished into budgets. It's already spent. People have got to stop using terminology they don't understand. And those 39bn Euros? That is already down from the 120bn Euros the EU originally came up with. How many more times do you want to have it haggled down?

    I mean, I'd give them the 39bn Euros, it's small change really... but for the love of god, people have got to stop parroting the bullshit Brexiteers are feeding them.
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  14. #20114
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So, how are they different then?
    See my post above Slant, Sales Tax is a very different instrument when it comes to accounting

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    The divorce bill isn't a "bill". It's money the UK already pledged and it already vanished into budgets. It's already spent. People have got to stop using terminology they don't understand. And those 39bn Euros? That is already down from the 120bn Euros the EU originally came up with. How many more times do you want to have it haggled down?
    I think even the 39bn still includes some future items that the UK is obliged to contribute to such as e.g. EU civil service pensions for UK citizens. We could conceptually switch the burden of those obligations to the UK directly via mutual agreement of all three parties and then the EU would not need to collect that money to make the payments.

    But yeah, payments already made by the EU on behalf of the UK that the EU has not yet collected will of course have to be paid. Most of that bill is just unavoidable. Unless the UK is in default and we don't know it.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  15. #20115
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See my post above Slant, Sales Tax is a very different instrument when it comes to accounting
    I know that you know it, I want our resident communist to embarass himself with a funny attempt at explaining a difference that actually matters. And then I'd like to talk to him about why European businesses really, really like VAT, because those complicated rules that seem to hurt his brain are actually mostly to support businesses and make taxation easier to handle in a time where trade becomes faster and faster.

    And no, I don't mean avoiding tax, that's a separate problem. I mean just the day to day handling of tax in a unit of 28 member states that trade amongst each other like stock brokers on cocaine.
    Last edited by Slant; 2019-06-10 at 09:38 AM.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  16. #20116
    Herald of the Titans Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So, how are they different then?

    - - - Updated - - -



    The divorce bill isn't a "bill". It's money the UK already pledged and it already vanished into budgets. It's already spent. People have got to stop using terminology they don't understand. And those 39bn Euros? That is already down from the 120bn Euros the EU originally came up with. How many more times do you want to have it haggled down?

    I mean, I'd give them the 39bn Euros, it's small change really... but for the love of god, people have got to stop parroting the bullshit Brexiteers are feeding them.
    As stated before, i'm very well aware what it actually entails. But instead of using the term "money the UK pledged and is already planned in the budget" i use the much more commonly referred term "divorce bilL", because that's what the likes of Boris Johnson will call it. If anyone by now still thinks that it is money the UK has to pay to leave the EU, honestly, using more correct but complicated terms will not sway these people. Hell, how do facts work with dribbles?

    So instead of posting this explanation, i decided to go with the much shorter "divorce bill".

  17. #20117
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I know that you know it, I want our resident communist to embarass himself with a funny attempt at explaining a difference that actually matters.
    I'm asking because i'm actually genuinely curious about practical differences and arguments; i'm not some kind of tax authority.

    And then I'd like to talk to him about why European businesses really, really like VAT, because those complicated rules that seem to hurt his brain are actually mostly to support businesses and make taxation easier to handle in a time where trade becomes faster and faster.
    Well, why? Could you explain it from business end compared to previous approaches?

    Why was VAT superior to any other?

  18. #20118
    OK since adressing Shackler who has always tried to derail the thread is pointless:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KCN1TB12J?il=0

    Johnson wants to massively cut taxes and also significantly increase spending. Lying liars lie I guess.
    But I see things split. There is a number of candidates who are moving strongly towards tax reform and tax cuts. And then others who focus on further investment, focusing on education and infrastructure mainly.

    One thing I have to say. If the UK does end up as the world's largest tax haven as some libertarians have long dreamed off, then things will get hairy really fast.

    It's interesting to see what they have in mind beyond Brexit.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  19. #20119
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Johnson wants to massively cut taxes and also significantly increase spending. Lying liars lie I guess.
    But I see things split. There is a number of candidates who are moving strongly towards tax reform and tax cuts. And then others who focus on further investment, focusing on education and infrastructure mainly.
    It's the Trump doctrine: when you have no actual program or policy, just keep on beating the (mainly corporate) tax cuts/reform and smaller government drum.

  20. #20120
    I am sure however it ends will be terrible for the UK. Their own politicians seem to believe in the globalist ideal so much they are prepared to sell out their own country to make an example of it.

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