The Brexit aftermath thread

[Slant]

I generally stay out of the Brexit thread as an American, but I'm damn proud of the British Parliament.

Brexit or not, they at least stood up to Boris Johnson's actions

The British Parliament is part of the reason why the UK is in this mess to begin with. They had to agree to every step of this madness. They are probably even more to blame than the PMs (three so far), because they kept supporting this and are now trying to unfuck something they voted for in utter ignorance. It's probably safe to say that 90% of them are absolutely incompetent and bad at their job.

[Elegiac]

Most of the time, the Executive can kick along just fine, when it's operating in good faith.

As I said before: political systems that are contingent upon traditionalism and "good faith" have all the structural resilience of wet tissue paper.

When it ceases operating in good faith, that's when Parliament and the Judiciary kick in. That's when it "looks bad", but is actually when it's just doing exactly as it should. It's because the Executive can kick along just fine when it's operating in good faith that it looks so bad, and so unusual when it doesn't and Parliament steps up. But it's not better to just always let the Executive do what the fuck it wants regardless. That's a dictatorship.

Y'all really out here trying to mansplain checks and balances to someone who lives in America. Cute.

There's a reason Australia based its constitution off the US' and not Britain. Namely because Britain doesn't have one.

[Ashenfury]

No, there aren't.

There is literally no factually defensible reason to support the UK leaving the EU unless your goal in truth is the marginalization of the UK into peripheral status vis a vis Switzerland or worse, because that is the best of the possible outcomes.

I guess that depends on what your priorities are. If you value things like prosperity, stability, freedom of movement Brexit is clearly a bad idea. On the other hand, if you find giving up some power to the EU unacceptable, Brexit might seem like like a rational choice. However, one should remember that countries like Norway and Switzerland still mostly play by EU rules. And it is likely that a post-Brexit UK will end up making deals with the EU that leads to a similar situation.

[Elegiac]

I guess that depends on what your priorities are. If you value things like prosperity, stability, freedom of movement Brexit is clearly a bad idea. On the other hand, if you find giving up some power to the EU unacceptable, Brexit might seem like like a rational choice. However, one should remember that countries like Norway and Switzerland still mostly play by EU rules. And it is likely that a post-Brexit UK will end up making deals with the EU that leads to a similar situation.

So...there's no factually defensible reason to support the UK leaving the EU. Did I stutter the first time?

Also, do you people seriously still think a Norway+ relationship is on the table? You'll be lucky to get the same consideration Canada gets considering how many bridges y'all have burned across the Channel and the Atlantic.

[Pann]

Labour are set to abstain on tonight's election vote.

[Elegiac]

Labour are set to abstain on tonight's election vote.

Labour lost the entirety of its spine after Atlee left office, more at 11.

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It remains completely bamboozling that there are still quite a few Brits here who don't understand how serious this situation is, because they are treating it as just another exercise in democratic horseplay and not in fact an existential threat to the United Kingdom itself.

If you told someone now that ten to fifteen years ago the UK was considered one of the big world players and the US' chief partner in Europe, I'd be surprised if they believed you.

[Jessicka]

Labour lost the entirety of its spine after Atlee left office, more at 11.

They abstaining because Boris calls the timing, he can, and probably would, just set a date for 1st Novemeber. Shit, he would tell everyone it was 15th October, and next day decide it was going to be 1st November.

Nobody trusts him. He's operating in bad faith, which is why Parliament is blocking him. I just fucking explained this to you. What you seem to want, and think should happen, is that they just let Boris call all the shots, while he's very obviously lying and operating in bad faith.

We understand the gravity of the situation, but we also understand how our own fucking parliament works, which is incredible to suggest we don't from someone who just got upset at having to be explained how their own US system works in a similar way.

You also seem to be under some bizarre impression that the Opposition parties are in some kind of position to negotiate with the EU themselves to drag the country out of this. That's again, not how it works, it's not how it works anywhere. It's the government that has to do that, and then get Parliament to agree with what it negotiated.

[Elegiac]

They abstaining because Boris calls the timing, he can, and probably would, just set a date for 1st Novemeber. Shit, he would tell everyone it was 15th October, and next day decide it was going to be 1st November.

Nobody trusts him. He's operating in bad faith, which is why Parliament is blocking him. I just fucking explained this to you. What you seem to want, and think should happen, is that they just let Boris call all the shots, while he's very obviously lying and operating in bad faith.

They're abstaining because they're down in the polls and pushing for a GE might cost them.

Labour has made its position on Brexit abundantly clear through its consistent inaction and reliance on fuck all but political theatre; they don't care unless they can extract some sort of electoral advantage from it.

As Skroe said; the only people in Westminster who are operating in good faith at the moment are the SNP.

[Jessicka]

They're abstaining because they're down in the polls and pushing for a GE might cost them.

Labour has made its position on Brexit abundantly clear through its consistent inaction and reliance on fuck all but political theatre; they don't care unless they can extract some sort of electoral advantage from it.

As Skroe said; the only people in Westminster who are operating in good faith at the moment are the SNP.

The SNP are also opposed to it, as are the Lib Dems and Plaid, and every fucker else.

[Northern Goblin]

The British Parliament is part of the reason why the UK is in this mess to begin with. They had to agree to every step of this madness. They are probably even more to blame than the PMs (three so far), because they kept supporting this and are now trying to unfuck something they voted for in utter ignorance. It's probably safe to say that 90% of them are absolutely incompetent and bad at their job.

Thank you for repeating that hard right wing news point, Parliament supported the triggering of A50 because of the referendum result, everything since then has been the failure of this government to negotiate, to plan and to adapt from their initial stance, Parliament has held them to account at every turn.

Also the idea that an American is saying Britain hasn't a constitution, when at least 3 of our key founding pieces of legislature are older than your country is amusing.

Also let's not accuse others of mansplaining something that has been part of our system since before you had one, when you're trying to mansplain our own Parliamentary process to us, incorrectly I might add.

[Elegiac]

The SNP are also opposed to it, as are the Lib Dems and Plaid, and every fucker else.

Which changes what I said not a whit. Labour is a slightly more left leaning boys club filled with deeply unserious people, and their actions over the past few years have borne that out.

[Northern Goblin]

They're abstaining because they're down in the polls and pushing for a GE might cost them.

Speaking of incorrect.

As is, calling for a general election before legislation is put in place to seek an extension beyond October 31st is counter productive.

The SNP look to make gains in an election yet understand that, so why don't you?

[Elegiac]

Also the idea that an American is saying Britain hasn't a constitution, when at least 3 of our key founding pieces of legislature are older than your country is amusing.

Congratulations, you used to be hot shit in a world full of divine right absolute monarchies.

And no, crowing about the Magna Carta doesn't mean Britain has a constitution any more than the Declaration of Independence serves as the US' foundational document.

Also let's not accuse others of mansplaining something that has been part of our system since before you had one, when you're trying to mansplain our own Parliamentary process to us, incorrectly I might add.

Okay Boomer.

Again, you having a shittier political system for longer doesn't make it less shitty. Prestige doesn't actually compensate for systemic shortcomings.

[Jessicka]

Which changes what I said not a whit. Labour is a slightly more left leaning boys club filled with deeply unserious people, and their actions over the past few years have borne that out.

What exactly is an opposition party supposed to do? You whinge they did nothing while they wait for the Government to present them with something, you whinge again when they step up once they've given something that's demonstrably shite and do something about it.

[Elegiac]

Speaking of incorrect.

As is, calling for a general election before legislation is put in place to seek an extension beyond October 31st is counter productive.

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the idea that Labour is interested in doing anything productive to begin with.

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What exactly is an opposition party supposed to do?

*looks at the Democrats having opened a multitude of legal inquiries into the sitting administration and continually advancing their legislative agenda in spite of known roadblocks*

The fact that I'm actually having to defend the Democratic Party as an example of how one might actually be an opposition party is pathetic, but so is Brexit.

[Jessicka]

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the idea that Labour is interested in doing anything productive to begin with.

They've had a clear manifesto since 2017. Which includes, and always has included, a notion that any deal they did agree with the EU would go back to the people. That alone is a much better way to clear this impasse than Boris's attempt to ride roughshod over everyone and just let the deadline pass to get a no-deal outcome without debate or scrutiny or any one making an actual decision on it but him.

[Elegiac]

They've had a clear manifesto since 2017.

Words on paper. I might as well point to BXP's manifesto as an example of their policies.

Labour has shown its failings through its actions. Clearly the party has hit its expiration date and Britain needs new left wing representatives.

[Northern Goblin]

Congratulations, you used to be hot shit in a world full of divine right absolute monarchies.

And no, crowing about the Magna Carta doesn't mean Britain has a constitution any more than the Declaration of Independence serves as the US' foundational document.

Congratulations, you could name one of them.

Okay Boomer.

Again, you having a shittier political system for longer doesn't make it less shitty. Prestige doesn't actually compensate for systemic shortcomings.

Nor does using popular catchphrases make your points any more correct. Maybe stick to what you know than trying to comment on a political system you clearly don't.

The system is fine, the flaw of the system is the same as any other political system, it is vulnerable to people who try to abuse it.

Thankfully we have ways and means to deal with that, as you're seeing now. Sorry things aren't as fast or on demand as you like but we don't do expediency for the sake of showmanship.

[Elegiac]

The system is fine

Yeah, I'm done here.

Sadly I can't block mods.

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Watch the UK actually crash out and all the "but the system just takes a long time" people have to eat their words, lol.

[Northern Goblin]

*looks at the Democrats having opened a multitude of legal inquiries into the sitting administration and continually advancing their legislative agenda in spite of known roadblocks*

See, one could argue that your overreliance on courts is because you have an absolute failure in the legislative branch to combat the executive directly.

Whereas here, the courts are rarely used because they are a last resort, and most of the time Parliament can hold Government to account without the need of the judiciary.

We do things differently than you do, you can't apply your rules and methodology to a system that isn't compliant with it. That doesn't make your system in any way better, nor does it make it inherently worse.