View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #20801
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Personally I hope they don't, because it looks like finally the ball is finally rolling with Johnson as PM and the government having an extreme minority.

    I hope that another extension will facilitate a change in Government that would bring in a change to the political declaration and future relationship, allowing the backstop to be removed.
    The political declaration is a PR piece. It has next to zero legal relevance. The future relationship is going to be determined in a future FTA. This is the withdrawal agreement. And it does already allow for the removal of a backstop. It always has.
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  2. #20802
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Wait what? How would a change in the political declaration warrant removing the backstop?
    The political declaration is the relationship after we've left the EU, which could involve remaining in the single market or a customs union.

    The backstop is currently in place because of the Conservative redlines against either of those means that there is a lack of solution to the Irish border.


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  3. #20803
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    The political declaration is the relationship after we've left the EU, which could involve remaining in the single market or a customs union.

    The backstop is currently in place because of the Conservative redlines against either of those means that there is a lack of solution to the Irish border.
    The political declaration is just what it says, a political declaration. The Withdrawal Agreement is the treaty that sets out the UK's future relationship with the EU.

    If you think that anyone in parliament, leave or remain, is going to agree to the UK being in the SM and CU which would see us essentially remain in the EU but give up having any say how it is run then I really don't know what to say.

    You are in essence saying that we will remove the backstop by making the backstop permanent.

  4. #20804
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The political declaration is just what it says, a political declaration. The Withdrawal Agreement is the treaty that sets out the UK's future relationship with the EU.
    Except it actually doesn't. The Withdrawal agreement is quite literally that, it's the means of exit from the EU, it is not the future relationship.

    https://fullfact.org/europe/withdraw...ot-trade-deal/


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  5. #20805
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The political declaration is just what it says, a political declaration. The Withdrawal Agreement is the treaty that sets out the UK's future relationship with the EU.

    If you think that anyone in parliament, leave or remain, is going to agree to the UK being in the SM and CU which would see us essentially remain in the EU but give up having any say how it is run then I really don't know what to say.

    You are in essence saying that we will remove the backstop by making the backstop permanent.
    Wrong. I can't explain it further, I think it would be construed as arrogant if I did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Except it actually doesn't. The Withdrawal agreement is quite literally that, it's the means of exit from the EU, it is not the future relationship.

    https://fullfact.org/europe/withdraw...ot-trade-deal/
    Noice. This is the correct answer, a future FTA is what will determine the future relationship.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
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  6. #20806
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    The political declaration is the relationship after we've left the EU, which could involve remaining in the single market or a customs union.

    The backstop is currently in place because of the Conservative redlines against either of those means that there is a lack of solution to the Irish border.
    If the UK leaves, there is no way it's staying in the single market or the customs union. Not after all they've pulled so far, not after all the lies and insults. I think at this point, there is no good will left between the EU and the UK. After Brexit the UK may look forward to a trade agreement, but it will take a long time to get even to that.

    How Brexit became a thing still boggles my mind...

  7. #20807
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I still don't know why the EU granted the last extension.
    They don't want recessions that comes with Britain actually leaving, duh.

    They are just as interested in kicking the can down the road as UK parliament if revoking A50 is not possible.

  8. #20808
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If you think that anyone in parliament, leave or remain, is going to agree to the UK being in the SM and CU
    www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-43189878

    Then you had the Ken Clarke CU plan that almost got a majority in the IV (and had abstentions from the SNP and Conservatives who did not want to follow the whip) so your suggestion that a CU is something no one in Parliament would support is kinda false.


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  9. #20809
    Quote Originally Posted by nRes View Post
    If the UK leaves, there is no way it's staying in the single market or the customs union. Not after all they've pulled so far, not after all the lies and insults. I think at this point, there is no good will left between the EU and the UK. After Brexit the UK may look forward to a trade agreement, but it will take a long time to get even to that.

    How Brexit became a thing still boggles my mind...
    The EU is pretty emotionless about these types of things. Sure, the players will be frustrated, but the reaction from the institution European Union doesn't care about goodwill, it cares about the result. Pure pragmatism.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
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  10. #20810
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nRes View Post
    If the UK leaves, there is no way it's staying in the single market or the customs union. Not after all they've pulled so far, not after all the lies and insults. I think at this point, there is no good will left between the EU and the UK. After Brexit the UK may look forward to a trade agreement, but it will take a long time to get even to that.

    How Brexit became a thing still boggles my mind...
    I'm not sure why you think Europe would turn down a consistent and well established trading route because of pettiness.

    This isn't Donald Trump we're negotiating with.


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  11. #20811
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    I'm not sure why you think Europe would turn down a consistent and well established trading route because of pettiness.

    This isn't Donald Trump we're negotiating with.
    Mostly because that trading route is going to be closed to us by the UK. It's not like the EU wanted to kick the UK out...
    Last edited by Slant; 2019-09-06 at 08:51 AM.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
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  12. #20812
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    Quote Originally Posted by nRes View Post
    At this point though I'm starting to get disappointed in the EU a little bit. It's pretty obvious there are many people in the UK who not only have negative views towards the EU project, but are completely against it. I doubt that number has decreased since the referendum, it may have even increased, we can't know.

    I understand there will be an economical impact to the rest of the EU if the UK crashes out, but I think at this point they have become a bit of a tumor and are dragging us down. We have to put this behind us as soon as possible so we can focus on fixing the issues within the EU. So if the brits can't do it, maybe it's time for the EU to speed up their exit. No more extensions, no more hand holding. There are way bigger issues in the world than the tantrums of the UK populace. It's time to move on and let them sort their mess outside of the EU.
    Well we can blame the "balanced" British media for this. When balance of debate is a very angry leaver, against a moderate remainer, and absolutely no input from the EU at all. You have to dig through a whole lot of bullshit to find anything from what the EU are actually saying. And obviously, most people don't dig. They look at Jezza's face photoshopped onto a fucking chicken.

  13. #20813
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Mostly because that trading route is going to be closed to us by the UK. It's not like the EU wanted to kick the UK out...
    Hence why I'm hoping this next extension* will finally result in a change of Government to one that is far more amicable with dealing with the EU.

    I mean it seems almost inevitable that an election is coming, this current government cannot legislate with such small numbers, we have to have a change.

    The one flaw in the plan is the result is not in any way guarenteed to end in a positive outcome with regards to who takes power.

    *assuming it is granted.


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  14. #20814
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    They don't want recessions that comes with Britain actually leaving, duh.
    The UK needs the EU a lot more than vice versa.

    Kind of irrelevant though, because of course they'll still wind up trading with one another. The UK will just get a worse deal out of it.
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  15. #20815
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Well we can blame the "balanced" British media for this. When balance of debate is a very angry leaver, against a moderate remainer, and absolutely no input from the EU at all. You have to dig through a whole lot of bullshit to find anything from what the EU are actually saying. And obviously, most people don't dig. They look at Jezza's face photoshopped onto a fucking chicken.
    Meanwhile their scottish variant of the same newspaper praises Corbyn and mocks Johnson.

    The Sun really is the fucking worst.


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  16. #20816
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The political declaration is just what it says, a political declaration. The Withdrawal Agreement is the treaty that sets out the UK's future relationship with the EU.
    Do you ever stop and think that maybe if you form strong opinions without knowing anything about a topic it might lead to you being publicly embarrassed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  17. #20817
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    I'm not sure why you think Europe would turn down a consistent and well established trading route because of pettiness.

    This isn't Donald Trump we're negotiating with.
    What message would that send to the rest of the EU then? If anyone can leave whilst retaining all the benefits, why is the EU even existing? Who's gonna be next, Italy? Hungary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Well we can blame the "balanced" British media for this. When balance of debate is a very angry leaver, against a moderate remainer, and absolutely no input from the EU at all. You have to dig through a whole lot of bullshit to find anything from what the EU are actually saying. And obviously, most people don't dig. They look at Jezza's face photoshopped onto a fucking chicken.
    The EU has a lot of screw ups to get blamed for, however the manipulative british media is entirely on the brits. The EU has enough to deal with, it doesn't need to also be involved in the public media of every member state. It's up to the member states to handle their own business properly and take responsibility for their failures.

  18. #20818
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nRes View Post
    leave whilst retaining all the benefits
    Yeaaaaah no, having a trade agreement is far from all the benefits. We would no longer see rebates for farmers and other professions that the EU support financially for example.


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  19. #20819
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Yeaaaaah no, having a trade agreement is far from all the benefits. We would no longer see rebates for farmers and other professions that the EU support financially for example.
    Staying in the single market and the customs union means far more than having a trade agreement. I think if the EU allows this to happen it will be a betrayal to every other member state.

  20. #20820
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nRes View Post
    Staying in the single market and the customs union means far more than having a trade agreement. I think if the EU allows this to happen it will be a betrayal to every other member state.
    I did state "or" on this. I do think just a CU is the likeliest option to secure a future working relationship.


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