View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #20821
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Just because I'm not sure I follow the analogy, isn't the 64k one the "freeby" where you don't lose anything if you get it wrong? IS that the gist of the comparison or did I miss the point?
    "Today, while most of us have never seen the game show, the phrase the $64,000 question remains as an idiom. Its definition is loose, but it usually means the crucial or essential question. Something referred to as the $64,000 question is usually an important issue whose outcome can’t be foreseen and on which much hinges."

    https://grammarist.com/usage/the-64000-question/

    @LeGin Tufnel great minds think alike!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Today could be interesting!

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...09504370139137

  2. #20822
    Can anyone table a motion of no confidence?
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  3. #20823
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Can anyone table a motion of no confidence?
    The speaker would have to allow it.

    Before Oct 31st? Not really. There are 24 sitting parliamentary days left until then and so not really the time. It is very much a last resort and a no confidence vote has not been successful for forty years.

    Remainers and EU fanatics clutching at straws sums it up, no deal now is the only realistic game in town.
    Brexiteers are the new remainers. To remain outside of the EU.

  4. #20824
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    I honestly don't know. My understanding of the blog post is that Article 50 is not design to kick out a member state. It lays out procedures for a voluntary withdrawal.
    What the author seems to imply is that even though other members states might not care, they can not push the UK into an unconstitutional situation. What the author says is the whole procedure would lapse (the whole article 50 shitshow would just be cancelled and the UK would have to invoke it and start over again).
    The EU's (and so far the UK's) stance is that by the deadline, Treaties cease the apply, so no deal is the default.
    I don't know who would win in court if there was a dispute, but the author seems to say there is a strong point to be made.

    Again, I'm don't have a legal background and there is obscure stuff in this, but it's an interesting perspective.
    Put it this way, what the author wrote is merely a legal interpretation. The ECJ has already ruled on the issue and confirmed A50 and even the requirements for a revocation, so as far as the EU is concerned, the UK's constitutional requirements have been met. Since that is the highest court in Europe handling this matter, whatever the opinion of a legal expert in a university, this matter is settled. The discussion here is, literally, academic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Here is the thing. The formative treaties of the EU cease to apply to the UK. And that will happen on Oct 31st.
    But much of the framework that forms the EU and creates the connections between EU states is not simply in the treaties. It is enshrined in national law. While the treaties will not apply to the UK, decades of legislation will. It would probably take weeks for the UK parliamentary system working at the minimum time required to begin stripping that legislation and much of it does not just need to be removed, it needs to be replaced. So in a completely disorderly No Deal you could be in a situation where the UK still is tied up by UK law to act for all purposes as an EU member with no actual reciprocity to the UK by the other members since those relations were covered by the treaties. And then there may be bilateral treaties between the UK and individual members that interact or are based on the EU treaties which would also be in limbo. The Withdrawal Agreement probably covers for this discontinuity but absent the WA the UK would need to substitute it for their own legislation.

    So yes, the treaties cease to apply through Article 50. But what about EVERYTHING ELSE?
    Everything else doesn't matter. The UK can ratify everything they want into national law, they can be super compatible, what matters is what happens at the border. That's what the EU is about and where you feel you're "in" or "out" of the EU.

    Once the UK is out of the EU, EU certification ceases to be valid. That means no UK doctor is able to practice in the EU if their certification is in some way regulated by the EU. Even if they are still as qualified as any other doctor in the EU. They would have to reapply for EU certification if they previously were certified through UK authorities. That's the kind of deal we're speaking about.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
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  5. #20825
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Everything else doesn't matter. The UK can ratify everything they want into national law, they can be super compatible, what matters is what happens at the border. That's what the EU is about and where you feel you're "in" or "out" of the EU.

    Once the UK is out of the EU, EU certification ceases to be valid. That means no UK doctor is able to practice in the EU if their certification is in some way regulated by the EU. Even if they are still as qualified as any other doctor in the EU. They would have to reapply for EU certification if they previously were certified through UK authorities. That's the kind of deal we're speaking about.
    I am not talking about actual interactions with the EU. Rather about the fact that if they don't actually legislate within their country, they will be bound by quite a few laws and won't be fully out, even with a No Deal.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  6. #20826
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not talking about actual interactions with the EU. Rather about the fact that if they don't actually legislate within their country, they will be bound by quite a few laws and won't be fully out, even with a No Deal.
    They'll only be bound by their national laws. Which may very well happen. But none of those have any validity in the EU. They're a sovereign nation, they can do whatever they like. As far as the EU is concerned, they may as well be Botswana.

    Edit: Correction, they're worse off than Botswana, because:

    https://www.export.gov/article?id=Bo...ade-agreements
    SADC – EU Economic Partnership Agreement
    Botswana has signed an interim Economic Partnership Agreement (EPA) with the European Union (EU). The EPA provides duty and quota free access on goods to the EU markets. Negotiations need to be completed on the treatment of services and new generation issues.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  7. #20827
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The Sunday Times ran a piece that suggested that officials from certain EU member states had been meeting with Johnson's allies with a view as to what could be done to avoid no-deal.

    That's the $64,000 question!
    Well BoJo's first PMQ and has pretty much blown changes to the PD as an option, completely out of the water saying the backstop must go and talks reopened. Or at least it will be one hell of a flip flop to sell that changes to the PD are adequate enough to approve the WA.

    He's definitely setting up operation "EU Meanies" though for when they come back with "nu-uh".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I mean, I'm with you... but a no conf doesn't matter. Time's running out. You think "Oh, it's almost August, we still got like three months!" but look at how good the UK is at using time to get stuff done. You don't have time for a no conf. I dare say you've already run out of time.

    See, the way you guys describe it, I'm thinking you either crash out, that's pretty much accomplished. Has been since three years ago. If you want anything else, you need to no conf, do a GE, then call a bloody referendum and then get Parliament to agree on... something other than no deal.

    I mean this in the most friendly way imaginable but... good luck. You're gonna need it even if all the stars align for you guys.
    That's definitely going to be the battleground for the GE if it happens. Referendum vs No Deal, other issues will be pretty meaningless because a BoJo Conservative Manifesto is going to be promising spending that would make Labour spending pledges look like Fiscal Conservatism.



    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Truth be told? The reason why the EU is so happy to amend the PD is because that's a whole truckload of horse manure. Nobody gives a flying fuck about the PD. That's a PR piece of paper to sell the news agencies once everything is ratified. The most legal relevance it has is "help guide interpretations of the WA" in case of disputes. It's what lawyers refer to when they say things like "oh, so when you said backstop, you really meant it because in the PD you also talked about it!"

    It's not ever something that will be directly challenged in any court, because as a document itself, it has zero legal relevance.

    The backstop will go when the UK solves the puzzle of "close borders while keeping borders open". That this will be literally never is pretty clear to anyone who actually thinks about this for more than two seconds. This is why Brexiteers are so adamant about rejecting the WA. Because essentially, the WA would put Brexit on hold indefinitely. And May was too happy to have that happen, because if nothing else, the British like being weird in their ways... you'd have accepted this and in 5 years "it would've always been this way" and please, never change it, because that's how it's done etc.

    Nothing in the PD, no matter how much you rephrase it, will change any material thing that pisses Brexiteers off. Even discussing touching it is already a waste of time, if I'm absolutely blunt. The EU knows this. every politically interested person knows this. Brexiteers know this. And this is why the EU throws that into the ring every now and then and why Brexiteers routinely scoff at the idea.
    Well yes, and that's why it isn't just Brexiteers in Parliament that have rejected the Backstop 3 times.

  8. #20828
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Corbyn won't back a no confidence motion.

    Continuing to find new ways to prop up this Tory government.


    Sports and Fitness mod, Brit with weird sleeping hours.
    Has good taste in ale, bad taste in D&D choices.

  9. #20829
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Corbyn won't back a no confidence motion.

    Continuing to find new ways to prop up this Tory government.
    Better to prop a Conservative Govt with a razor thin majority and a large bloc of discontents at odds with their leader than going into a GE that in all likelihood, he will probably lose.

    Brexiteers have never thought he was a Brexiteer so Labour risk losing Brexity marginals to UKIP/Con and Remainers don't believe he will actually give them a second ref because the last time we heard about the official Labour policy it was "to hold a ref on any Tory negotiated agreement" which means if he won a GE, he wouldn't back a second ref.

    I don't think Corbyn's statement today marks a change in that so he's going to need time to undo "Constructive Ambiguity", the most stupid political strategy anyone has ever seen on a given issue.

  10. #20830
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Better to prop a Conservative Govt with a razor thin majority and a large bloc of discontents at odds with their leader than going into a GE that in all likelihood, he will probably lose.
    "Better" for Corbyn's Labour, absolutely not better for the country.

  11. #20831
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    "Better" for Corbyn's Labour, absolutely not better for the country.
    I mean...is it? I'd much rather have a BoJo Govt that can't pass Reagonomic Boogaloo Episode I've Lost Count How Many Times People Fall For This Shit (admittedly a working title), than a BoJo Govt that can.

    At least at this stage Phillip Hammond weeping into his hands and screaming is useful for us rather than just sad.

  12. #20832
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Look at the sorry state of Labour. Outclassed and outgunned on day 1 of perhaps the finest UK PM to come for decades.

    No wonder Corbyn doesn't want a General Election. Here are some of todays best bits...

    Brexiteers are the new remainers. To remain outside of the EU.

  13. #20833
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Not sure why BJ getting appointed warranted a new thread but alright

    Just when you think things cannot get worse in the UK surrounding the brexit, i watching BJ's speech and looked up who now makes up his cabinet.

    All the key marks of a populist in that speech, he's going to cut taxes for the corporations and wealthy and at the same time he's going to rebuild the industry. Welcome great britania, welcome to the american age of bullshit trickle down economics. The working class has no idea how fucked it is.

    The NHS won't be part of any trade deal, that i believe. The NHS as an organisation won't, but all the rest surrounding it will being it the medicine, the hospitals, the doctor practices. They give you a little bit of credit thinking you won't accept a direct dismantling, so same tactic as in the US they are going to make it so NHS can no longer by maintained financially.

    He promises an golden era for the UK, he might. He just left out that this means a further division and a return to the UK's former golden era, the era of servants and lords. UK the only western nation that never really go rid of their caste system, rejoice you now can get to fully experience it again! Don't worry though, the new education plans and investment in schools will make it so your son or daughter can become the best servant they can be! Coming to you on an island in 2050!

    New harder immigration laws, because you need to be able to nitpick who comes to your country. Never mind you are already experiencing a brain drain and people with education are looking to migrate elsewhere but good luck with implementing that australian point system!

    Harder on crime, more police officers and fast! That means more american situations with less trained gun ho cops around the nation, who are going to be overworked and underpaid, because did you hear anywhere in that speech how the government is going to pay for all that? I didn't but i am sure the wealthy well hire private law enforcements to contribute a bit back to society after their much earned tax cut. Speaking of private harder on crime means more people in jail and you know what that means more PRIVATE prisons!

    Going to keep it short on the new cabinet, never have i seen such a diverse cabinet, full of fascists, criminals of different skin tones and gender! Well done BJ! You managed to fine shit stains among several communities in the nation!

    So actually impressive, if the brexit process isn't doing enough damage to the working class, this cabinet surely will find a way.

  14. #20834
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    All the key marks of a populist in that speech, he's going to cut taxes for the corporations and wealthy and at the same time he's going to rebuild the industry. Welcome great britania, welcome to the american age of bullshit trickle down economics. The working class has no idea how fucked it is.
    I said it in another thread, but I will say it again here, so many of the working class backed Brexit (giving credence to this clown), wrongly thinking they were sticking it to Johnny Foreigner. Now that this mob have the reigns, they are about to feel the full force of upper class contempt. And I bet many will still, whilst their asses are getting fucked bloody, will still blame Poles for it, while the likes of Farage cheer on from the sidelines "Its the Muslims too!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    The NHS won't be part of any trade deal, that i believe. The NHS as an organisation won't, but all the rest surrounding it will being it the medicine, the hospitals, the doctor practices. They give you a little bit of credit thinking you won't accept a direct dismantling, so same tactic as in the US they are going to make it so NHS can no longer by maintained financially.
    Out of all the public services they want to demolish, this is the one that frightens me the most, it is also the one though that I think might just stir enough popular anger that there might be hope of a reckoning for those responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    He promises an golden era for the UK, he might. He just left out that this means a further division and a return to the UK's former golden era, the era of servants and lords. UK the only western nation that never really go rid of their caste system, rejoice you now can get to fully experience it again! Don't worry though, the new education plans and investment in schools will make it so your son or daughter can become the best servant they can be! Coming to you on an island in 2050!
    Couldn't agree more. The Britannia Unchained mob want to take us back a few centuries. The sad thing is that the people who will be hurt the most for this are playing an active role in facilitating it.





    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Going to keep it short on the new cabinet, never have i seen such a diverse cabinet, full of fascists, criminals of different skin tones and gender! Well done BJ! You managed to fine shit stains among several communities in the nation!
    .
    I don't know how to feel about this one, nor do I want to derail. In the past, those on the left who are into grievance politics often made out (though didn't necessarily intend) that what was wrong with the people wanting to do massive harm to the country wasn't that they wanted to do massive harm to the country, but that they were white men. I always remember a meme with Lisa Simpson, saying how it is terrible, at least half of them should be women of colour, and now they get it, and I don't think they like it. I also found it amusing, reading the Guardian earlier, how it is almost as if they aren't real women or real ethnic minorities, that the advancement of women and ethnic minorities should be for those with the correct belief structure. I think it is unfair and misses that it is a symbol of real progress. The hammering of the working classes, disabled etc isn't solely the preserve of white men, white women and others of a different skin colour are now able to rise up and do it too. Is there a stronger symbol, or better measure of gender/race equality than that? Worth pondering.
    Quote Originally Posted by FurryFoxWolf View Post
    crazy people gonna have there dog put down for rape after they hump there leg
    Quote Originally Posted by FurryFoxWolf View Post
    feminists they always look like a hippo thats rolled in dogshit and then hit with a nuclear weapon and lived

  15. #20835
    Man, that speech... priceless.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
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  16. #20836
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    So BOjo really is a mini Trump, now thinks cutting taxes on the better off and increasing government spending is the way to go. Glad to see fiscally responsible conservatives are just as bullshit as fiscally responsible republicans.

  17. #20837
    Apparently none of Boris's fantastical plans have even been costed, which I gather actually puts him at a worse level the said republicans.

    He is basically just saying stuff that he thinks sound good and convincing and then going forth on blind faith in British magnificence.

  18. #20838
    I wonder how he will plug the gap created by the tax cuts. If memory serves I think he may have suggested in the past that it would plugged with the money they were supposed to send to the EU, though it was suggested to him that in bumping the EU he would most likely turn the UK into a pariah state, but who knows. All we can be sure of is that if (when) things go tits up, it will be the EU's fault, not his.
    Quote Originally Posted by FurryFoxWolf View Post
    crazy people gonna have there dog put down for rape after they hump there leg
    Quote Originally Posted by FurryFoxWolf View Post
    feminists they always look like a hippo thats rolled in dogshit and then hit with a nuclear weapon and lived

  19. #20839
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    Apparently none of Boris's fantastical plans have even been costed, which I gather actually puts him at a worse level the said republicans.

    He is basically just saying stuff that he thinks sound good and convincing and then going forth on blind faith in British magnificence.
    To the surprise to absolutely no one...
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  20. #20840
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    I wonder how he will plug the gap created by the tax cuts. If memory serves I think he may have suggested in the past that it would plugged with the money they were supposed to send to the EU, though it was suggested to him that in bumping the EU he would most likely turn the UK into a pariah state, but who knows. All we can be sure of is that if (when) things go tits up, it will be the EU's fault, not his.
    Funds will be taken from the Magic Money Tree of course. In pre 2017 GE Britain it did not exist but thanks to the boffins in the Chancillory and the madcap botanist Phillip Hammond we invented one just in time to buy off the DUP. Thanks to this Conservative Leaders can make ludicrous spending pledges without anyone asking where the money will be coming from.

    Obviously though Labour spending pledges will need to be fully costed and will still be considered completely unaffordable, the Magic Money Tree abhors Marxists, Socialists and generally being of use to anyone but the richest in society.

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