View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #21041
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Come on Skroe, the Rs will filibuster the shit out of the next democratic presidency. I really doubt just because Trump isn't in office anymore republican senators suddenly grow a spine.
    I don't think you quite got what I was saying.

    When there is a Democratic President, if a Democratic Senator puts up a bill that will limit the power of Presidents, Republicans then and there would vote for it. They'll suddenly rediscover their republican (small r) values.

    Our system will be reformed because a Democratic House will deal with a Republican Senate to put new rules that reign in the powers of the executive that a Democratic President is then occupying. It's the only way it happens, because Republicans will never do it with a sitting Republican President.

    But to potentially restrain a Democratic one? Yeah they'll jump at that. Democrats will be doing the right thing for the right reason, while Republicans the right thing for the wrong.

    That clear it up?

  2. #21042
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    She can. It's just convention not to. And that's again the ENTIRE point.
    She can't, read what you've quoted.

    This would give Johnson an option to force its hand: Advise Queen Elizabeth II to withhold royal assent from the anti-no-deal bill. The monarch retains the power of an absolute veto, but it has not been used since the early 18th century. Convention requires her to give assent to a bill backed by Parliament, but convention also dictates that she follow the advice of her prime minister. Since the prime minister has always controlled Parliament, she has thus always assented to the bill. But what will she do if her ministers advise a veto in the face of a parliamentary majority that refuses to take power?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    There is a withdrawal agreement that sets up interim treaties that apply as long and until both parties agree they're no longer needed. i.e. when a new raft of trade agreements are done.

    It marks the end of the beginning, rather than the beginning of the end. Part of the reason it's so unacceptable to Brexiteers is because we already know that such new trade deals could be a decade or more in the making which the Brexiteers won't necessarily have control over terms of.
    The EU have said time and time again that they will not agree a trade deal without the basic parts of the WA.
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-09-09 at 04:28 PM.

  3. #21043
    Oh and there is this. MPs giving praise to Bercow now.



    That's the opposition (Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, etc) on the right and the Conservatives on the left.

    Bercow was previously a Conservative FP and a front bencher at various points.

    Classy people couldn't even show up to say a few nice words about a colleague.

  4. #21044
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It is not a moot point - having a majority does not mean that the government is guaranteed to be able to do whatever it wants, recent events show that MPs can and will vote against party lines.

    Not sure what your point is about the Referendum Act as it did not give the government carte blanche to do whatever they like post-referendum and besides Parliament has changed since that time.
    Well it is.

    I didn't say that it did. I asked where you were going with your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Not, it makes it irrelevant as the government at that time did not have the power to guarantee the commitment and has since ceased to exist.
    What? The government did not cease to exist. The government committed to enact the referendum result and so did May's government - these are things that actually happened - I honestly don't know why you're trying to claim otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I'm not sure what country you come from but in the UK illegal activities remain illegal even if they are discovered after the fact.
    And? I've not claimed otherwise but it's good to see that you again resort the to you must be foreigner argument.

  5. #21045
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    She can't read what you've quoted.
    I think you're having a difficult relationship with the definition of the word "convention", which is explicitly used in the part you bolded and has been used repeatedly by me.

    Convention is the problem at work here. She can, but she doesn't because of convention. But that doesn't mean she can't. She can. She just doesn't because of tradition.

    A better system would have those powers explicitly allowed or denied, preferably to a democratically elected head of state. Because as another poster put, the de facto head of state through the convention that the queen follows the advice of the prime minister, is the Prime Minister and his "executive". A better system would be one where "de facto" isn't used in terms of division of powers.

  6. #21046
    I am Murloc! Arch-Angel of Riots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I think you're having a difficult relationship with the definition of the word "convention", which is explicitly used in the part you bolded and has been used repeatedly by me.

    Convention is the problem at work here. She can, but she doesn't because of convention. But that doesn't mean she can't. She can. She just doesn't because of tradition.
    It would also be entirely futile. The last european monarch who tried it, the Belgian King that tried to veto legalizing abortion was quickly dethroned for a day. The same would probably happen in the UK.
    .:: Welcome to MMO-C Off-topic, where most people believe that leftism means being capitalism's HR department ::.

  7. #21047
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I think you're having a difficult relationship with the definition of the word "convention", which is explicitly used in the part you bolded and has been used repeatedly by me.

    Convention is the problem at work here. She can, but she doesn't because of convention. But that doesn't mean she can't. She can. She just doesn't because of tradition.
    The whole passage you quoted was based on the premise of Johnson advising her to refuse Assent. The Queen technically has a lot of powers however in reality and practice she must remain politically neutral and the fact a veto was used in 1707 does not mean that the same can happen today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    It would also be entirely futile. The last european monarch who tried it, the Belgian King that tried to veto legalizing abortion was quickly dethroned for a day. The same would probably happen in the UK.
    It would certainly lead to another crisis in our, non-existent, constitution.

  8. #21048
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There is a deal - it is 600 pages long and has been agreed with the EU - but parliament do not want this deal. They, also, don't want anything else and think that sending the government away to get something better from the EU, when there is absolutely no incentive for the EU to re-open negotiations because whatever they come up with will be rejected, is a solution to the problem.

    So, yes, this part of the mess is parliament's fault.
    No, the deal is terrible, therefore Parliament couldn't put it through.

    So no, this part of the mess is still the Government that failed to deliver a suitable Brexit deal.

  9. #21049
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    No, the deal is terrible, therefore Parliament couldn't put it through.

    So no, this part of the mess is still the Government that failed to deliver a suitable Brexit deal.
    What's wrong with the deal? The EU seem to think it's all right.

    And what exactly would be a suitable Brexit deal?

  10. #21050
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Does anyone even know the answer to that?
    Exactly! It's easy to snipe from the sidelines and point out problems, not so easy to come up with solutions!

  11. #21051
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What's wrong with the deal? The EU seem to think it's all right.

    And what exactly would be a suitable Brexit deal?
    I'm sure they're happy with the deal, unfortunately its not them that the Government have to please.

    If I could answer the latter I would have voted for leave.

  12. #21052
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    I'm sure they're happy with the deal, unfortunately its not them that the Government have to please.

    If I could answer the latter I would have voted for leave.
    That's not an answer. What do you think is wrong with the deal?

    How can you judge that the current deal is terrible if you do not have an idea what a suitable deal would be?

  13. #21053
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I give praise to Bercow's ties. The man dares!
    I wrote this a long time before, but I always say he reminds me of Terry Jones from Monty Python. What I wouldn't give to see him do a quick snippet parodying Bercow, dimentia or not! :P

  14. #21054
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Which is why if I was an MP I'd go for a second referendum. Just make the people decide.
    Yeah, that worked out so well the last time!

    But maybe we could have some sort of public indicative votes? We could make it like the X-Factor and put Simon Cowell in charge then all the money from phone and text votes could go towards paying for the ensuing chaos!

  15. #21055
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, that worked out so well the last time!
    A referendum between known and defined options (remain, negotiated deal) gives a much clearer direction for people to follow, compared to the question 3 years ago when detail was actively avoided in order to help secure the result.

  16. #21056
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Does anyone even know the answer to that?
    I do - whichever deal validates the Brexiteer's insecurity issues the most.

    Example: "A tax on XYZ products" won't please them, but saying "We'll return you your God-Given right to enjoy Black Pudding", they'll stand up and cheer in droves!

    (Note: The EU has done nothing involving Black Pudding. However, many in the Rural communities of the UK for some reason believe that Black Pudding was banned by the EU, when it in reality has simply gone out of fashion instead and isn't in demand anymore.)

  17. #21057
    I am Murloc! Arch-Angel of Riots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvaliz View Post
    (Note: The EU has done nothing involving Black Pudding. However, many in the Rural communities of the UK for some reason believe that Black Pudding was banned by the EU, when it in reality has simply gone out of fashion instead and isn't in demand anymore.)
    Weird. It's still very present and in demand at my local EU butcher. Especially german butcheries usually have piles of it stacked in their displays. (I prefer white pudding though).

    Misinformation is the new opiate of the people.
    .:: Welcome to MMO-C Off-topic, where most people believe that leftism means being capitalism's HR department ::.

  18. #21058
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Look if it was up to me, I'd make a detailed, non-binary referendum.
    What no Cowell? Telephone votes? Damn!

    I have always been against another referendum but I increasingly think that it is the only way out of this mess. A referendum with two questions - leave or remain and no-deal or negotiated deal - everyone answers both questions and if leave wins we use the result of the second to determine how we leave. I'm not sure whether it would pass the electoral commission but it would answer the question one way or another.

  19. #21059
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Please rank in order of preference
    No Deal
    The existing WA
    EFTA+
    I had to laugh at this. I would be surprised if the percentage of population in the UK who could tell you what the existing deal or EFTA are reached double figures!

  20. #21060
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Heck I'd be surprised if the number of MPs who can tell you what the WA says exactly and what we mean by EFTA+ is in the double digits.
    Unfortunately I think that is accurate.

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