View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #24241
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    lol, yep

    Classic Freudian slip.

    He, of course, did actually mean knife not axe.
    In fairness his comments didn't need the police looking into him but it does show him up to be a massive hypocrite after the fuss he made about Jo Brand.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Hammond and his team have not named any individual donors. However, hedge fund managers have backed Johnson. One of those is Crispin Odey, a fund manager who has also previously backed Vote Leave and Ukip. Over the summer, it was reported that his fund had made a £300m bet against British businesses and stood to profit from an economic slump in the UK. However, the fund also backed other British companies. Odey did not respond to a request for comment.

    This is incredible. Give it time. It won't be long before he's, literally, getting away with murder.
    I wouldn't get too excited about this there is no actual evidence in the Guardian article that Johnson has acted inappropriately (this time) and as Andrew Neil points out, WRT to Crispin Odey, "Unless you also know his long positions, this tells you nothing about whether or not he’d benefit from no deal. His funds’ performance in the political chaos that has followed the referendum these past 3 years is pretty poor."

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177958855143112705

  2. #24242
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I wouldn't get too excited about this there is no actual evidence in the Guardian article that Johnson has acted inappropriately (this time) and as Andrew Neil points out, WRT to Crispin Odey, "Unless you also know his long positions, this tells you nothing about whether or not he’d benefit from no deal. His funds’ performance in the political chaos that has followed the referendum these past 3 years is pretty poor."

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1177958855143112705
    And in any way, having a few positions against is just diversification.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  3. #24243
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Personally, I find the fact that Neil feels the need to defend someone like Odey in itself a bit of a giveaway. I hate to get all burnerish, but I simply have no time for people like Odey. Putting the BJ / corruption dimension aside for a moment: Odey presents the unacceptable face of capitalism. A brash, old Harrovian, multi-millionaire hedge fund manager whose funds have profited as a result of his decision to bet against Sterling; once married to a Murdoch daughter (lasted 15 months: which party do you think was it who couldn't bring themselves to consummate the relationship - her or him?); who is aligned to people who call those who want to Remain in the EU "elitists"? LOL. No. I don't particularly care for him or Neil's defence of him. He's a parasite.

    And, in general, this is where we're going with Brexit. Black & white. No shades of grey. Enemy or ally.
    Why? If you take time to read Neil's twitter or watch his programs he is fairly even handed nor is he defending Odey, he is simply stating that there is no evidence to support the claim. Odey may be unpleasant but that doesn't mean that he is involved in illegal schemes nor does mean that Johnson's pursuit of Brexit is to make his pal's money or to save them making a loss.

    I know it is unpopular nowadays, and even less so since Brexit began, but we should be judge stories on evidence not hearsay.

  4. #24244
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Why? If you take time to read Neil's twitter or watch his programs he is fairly even handed nor is he defending Odey, he is simply stating that there is no evidence to support the claim. Odey may be unpleasant but that doesn't mean that he is involved in illegal schemes nor does mean that Johnson's pursuit of Brexit is to make his pal's money or to save them making a loss.

    I know it is unpopular nowadays, and even less so since Brexit began, but we should be judge stories on evidence not hearsay.
    No one was named, you’re talking speculation on speculation; but his sister, and Philip Hammond know what’s up. More skeletons will come forth from his closet. There seem to be a lot of people want their pound of flesh.

    A guy doesn’t try to get someone beaten up on their porch without making enemies, and he seems to have outlasted his usefulness to them.

    An investigation is just the start - and there may be two of them. There’s plenty of reason to expect, beyond that, that he won’t be PM by the end of the week.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2019-09-28 at 10:17 PM.

  5. #24245
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    No one was named, you’re talking speculation on speculation; but his sister, and Philip Hammond know what’s up. More skeletons will come forth from his closet. There seem to be a lot of people want their pound of flesh.

    A guy doesn’t try to get someone beaten up on their porch without making enemies, and he seems to have outlasted his usefulness to them.

    An investigation is just the start - and there may be two of them. There’s plenty of reason to expect, beyond that, that he won’t be PM by the end of the week.
    There's no evidence to support the claim full stop.

    Just to clarify; there may well be evidence to support their claim but so far none has been put forward.
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-09-28 at 10:26 PM.

  6. #24246
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There's no evidence to support the claim full stop.
    Those people don’t make those claims without something to back it up.

    And they don’t spill it all to the media either because they don’t want to jeopardise an investigation.

    We’re talking about his own sister and the former chancellor, and you’re suggesting they’re not reliable?
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2019-09-28 at 10:25 PM.

  7. #24247
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Those people don’t make those claims without something to back it up.

    And they don’t spill it all to the media either because they don’t want to jeopardise an investigation.

    We’re talking about his own sister and the former chancellor, and you’re suggesting they’re not reliable?
    Yeah, of course not.

  8. #24248
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Neil's argument is basically wait and see. Wait and see what Odey's long position is. By which time, it'll be far too late. Fuck that. Who do I choose to believe: Hammond or Neil? I'll punt for Hammond.

    Anyway, for me anyway, it's no longer relevant.

    Odey can fuck off. As can Boris, as can Rees-Mogg, as can Steve "hard man" Baker. So can Neil if he aligns himself with these people.

    Brexit purists didn't vote for May's deal, this is the result: further division.
    Looking through that thread, best comment: “I’m not sure whether corruption is defined on whether or not it is successful”.

  9. #24249
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Neil's argument is basically wait and see. Wait and see what Odey's long position is. By which time, it'll be far too late. Fuck that. Who do I choose to believe: Hammond or Neil? I'll punt for Hammond.

    Anyway, for me anyway, it's no longer relevant.

    Odey can fuck off. As can Boris, as can Rees-Mogg, as can Steve "hard man" Baker. So can Neil if he aligns himself with these people.

    Brexit purists didn't vote for May's deal, this is the result: further division.
    And? Isn't that a reasonable position to take? You know, wait to see if there is actual evidence to support a claim? But, yeah, I forgot it's Brexit - kangaroo courts all the way!

    Neil does not align himself with them. He will take people to task regardless of which side of the debate they occupy or their political leanings nor will he condemn anyone without evidence. In my opinion we need more journalists like him.

    Lots of people didn't vote for May's deal - do we only complain about them based on how Brexity their positions are?
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-09-28 at 10:34 PM.

  10. #24250
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, of course not.
    And a Twitter comment disregarding what Odey has literally said about his stance on Brexit is reliable?

    Holy shit dude. No more Koolaid for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    And? Isn't that a reasonable position to take? You know, wait to see if there is actual evidence to support a claim? But, yeah, I forgot it's Brexit - kangaroo courts all the way!

    Neil does not align himself with them. He will take people to task regardless of which side of the debate they occupy or their political leanings nor will he condemn anyone without evidence. In my opinion we need more journalists like him.

    Lots of people didn't vote for May's deal - do we only complain about them based on how Brexity their positions are?
    More journalists of the Tory Spectator variety?

  11. #24251
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And a Twitter comment disregarding what Odey has literally said about his stance on Brexit is reliable?

    Holy shit dude. No more Koolaid for you.
    Eh? What?

    If Hammond has evidence to support his claim then why has he not gone to police?

    But, yeah, let's get the pitchforks and torches ready!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    More journalists of the Tory Spectator variety?
    He is not a Spectator journalist.

  12. #24252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Eh? What?

    If Hammond has evidence to support his claim then why has he not gone to police?

    But, yeah, let's get the pitchforks and torches ready!
    Not Police jurisdiction, it’s a matter for the Cabinet Office, to whom he’s been reported. Insane complications of Parliamentary Justice.
    He is not a Spectator journalist.
    No, he’s the fucking chairman.

  13. #24253
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not Police jurisdiction, it’s a matter for the Cabinet Office, to whom he’s been reported. Insane complications of Parliamentary Justice.

    No, he’s the fucking chairman.
    Complete nonsense! Of course it's a police matter if Johnson is truly pursuing a Brexit which will make his friends rich.

    He is, but that has no bearing on his ability as a journalist.

    Look if this going to go the usual way with you - where you spend the next so many hours telling lie after lie - I'll leave the discussion here.

  14. #24254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Complete nonsense! Of course it's a police matter if Johnson is truly pursuing a Brexit which will make his friends rich.

    He is, but that has no bearing on his ability as a journalist.

    Look if this going to go the usual way with you - where you spend the next so many hours telling lie after lie - I'll leave the discussion here.
    He’s the chairman of the Spectator which is very Tory biased, and he does write articles and perform interviews for it.

    He is biased. Whatever hat he puts on for the BBC, that’s not his normal hat and his Twitter hat is very much his own views. Being good at interviewing people for TV doesn’t have a thing to do with any of that.

    Furthermore, the allegations aren’t just from Hammond, they’re also backed up by other MPs and his sister, they all know the score. He has been reported for investigation accordingly.

    It’s not like it hasn’t been an obvious, basically open secret with these allegations in the wind since the whole referendum was confirmed.

    Yet here you are with your fingers in your ears, saying it ain’t so because Andrew Neil says ‘wait and see’. While the opposition and his former allies are looking at ways to kick him out over this before the end of the week.

    Do you want him to actually get on his FB live and tell the world to camera he’s in it for this before you believe it?

  15. #24255
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    He’s the chairman of the Spectator which is very Tory biased, and he does write articles and perform interviews for it.

    He is biased. Whatever hat he puts on for the BBC, that’s not his normal hat and his Twitter hat is very much his own views. Being good at interviewing people for TV doesn’t have a thing to do with any of that.

    Furthermore, the allegations aren’t just from Hammond, they’re also backed up by other MPs and his sister, they all know the score. He has been reported for investigation accordingly.

    It’s not like it hasn’t been an obvious, basically open secret with these allegations in the wind since the whole referendum was confirmed.

    Yet here you are with your fingers in your ears, saying it ain’t so because Andrew Neil says ‘wait and see’. While the opposition and his former allies are looking at ways to kick him out over this before the end of the week.

    Do you want him to actually get on his FB live and tell the world to camera he’s in it for this before you believe it?
    The Spectator is right wing. He does not write articles in it - as a BBC employee he has to be impartial.

    That is bollocks.

    The claim is that Johnson "is backed by speculators who have bet billions on a hard Brexit" which may well be the case however that is not proof of any wrong doing. People are allowed to back political figures regardless of their financial position or employment.

    Yeah, more bollocks.

    This is more of your lies.

    If Johnson is pursuing a course of action for the purpose of benefiting his backers then he is committing a very serious crime - one which should result in spending many years at her majesty's pleasure - however there needs to be more evidence than currency speculators like him and would like a hard Brexit.

  16. #24256
    After a turbulent week that would under normal circumstances have forced the PM to resign;

    'Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 36% (-1)
    LAB: 24% (+2)
    LDEM: 20% (+3)
    BREX: 11% (-1)

    via @OpiniumResearch
    Chgs. w/ 20 Sep'


    https://twitter.com/britainelects/st...23950598713345

  17. #24257
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    He could have if he didn't have any anti semetic sentiments instead of praising the book go "This is a pile of anti semetic garbage and anyone who wants to read something that shows the ills of imperialism go read xyz.". Also there's a major difference between Lovecraft/Howard and the book in question. The formers are fiction the latter claims to be non fiction. You can be ok with the formers work (Personall I tend not to be) but keep a discrete distance from the author racist views.

    But when a book is inherently "It's all the jews fault." and claims to be anti fiction, then yeah there's a really big problem there. You can't call it brilliant when the whole premise of it is anti semetic from start to finish.
    Most of the book is about Imperialism and the role of capitalist oligarchy, in fact Corbyn was quite specific about what aspect of the book he was calling "brilliant":

    What is brilliant, and very controversial at the time, is his analysis of the pressures that were hard at work in pushing for a vast national effort in grabbing new outposts of Empire on distant islands and shores. His painstaking analysis of the costs, and the alleged benefits, of Empire is very powerful.
    You can read his entire foreword here:

    http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokes.../130Corbyn.pdf

    Yes the author was anti-Semitic, but that was unfortunately common at the time.

    If you give a pass to fiction, then what about Henry Ford, Hugo Boss or Coco Chanel? Is anyone who quotes Ford, wears a Hugo Boss suit or Chanel earrings an anti-Semite?

    I'm sorry, it's fair to criticise him for the foreword and ask him to condemn the anti-Semitic parts of the book, but you're massively oversimplifying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #24258
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Most of the book is about Imperialism and the role of capitalist oligarchy, in fact Corbyn was quite specific about what aspect of the book he was calling "brilliant":



    You can read his entire foreword here:

    http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokes.../130Corbyn.pdf

    Yes the author was anti-Semitic, but that was unfortunately common at the time.

    If you give a pass to fiction, then what about Henry Ford, Hugo Boss or Coco Chanel? Is anyone who quotes Ford, wears a Hugo Boss suit or Chanel earrings an anti-Semite?

    I'm sorry, it's fair to criticise him for the foreword and ask him to condemn the anti-Semitic parts of the book, but you're massively oversimplifying.
    If they call works of there's that's pretty much "The Jews did this." then yes. I'm sorry but as someone who has been attacked often for having mix ethnic background I have zero tolerance for that shit. Corbyn should have just not endorsed it and gone with a book that instead blames politicians Kings and emperors for Imperialism. Not the Jews.

    As for the others it all depends on simple issue. Is what is being quoted essentially done on the basis of Everything shit is because of x ethnicity/race. " if so then fuck em and I hope they suffer.

    That's the difference. You simply put can not quote that book any part and separate it from the anti semetic part. Because that entire book is one long anti semetic rant that should be condemned for what it is. Not nuanced.

    It also doesn't help Corbyn case when this is not the only thing that raises alarm bells. There's the whole Labour MPs and members who are Jewish being attacked and instead of immediate suspension, inquiry and if found guilty expulsion with naming and shaming, he fucking at best dithered on it. Then there's his calling Hamas and Hezbollah friends and laying weaths to memorialize terrorists whose goals are snyi israeli. But also push anti semetic views as a whole.

    This is not just one small thing but number of things if it wasn't someone with a cult of personality around him would have been removed from leading the opposition years ago.

  19. #24259
    Oh dear, https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-29/...ection-battle/

    If Lab are going to lead the government, and therefore the country, they need to get this kind of crap under control.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Today's Express has 'Boris would win an election in jail!' emblazoned across their front page. I fear they may be correct.

  20. #24260
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The Spectator is right wing. He does not write articles in it - as a BBC employee he has to be impartial.

    That is bollocks.

    The claim is that Johnson "is backed by speculators who have bet billions on a hard Brexit" which may well be the case however that is not proof of any wrong doing. People are allowed to back political figures regardless of their financial position or employment.

    Yeah, more bollocks.

    This is more of your lies.

    If Johnson is pursuing a course of action for the purpose of benefiting his backers then he is committing a very serious crime - one which should result in spending many years at her majesty's pleasure - however there needs to be more evidence than currency speculators like him and would like a hard Brexit.
    He doesn’t need to be any more impartial on Twitter than Garry Lineker.

    And a cursory search through the site does uncover some older articles he wrote, but honestly the more I looked the more I was wondering how anyone could actually approve some of the articles on there, some of them islamophobic and some openly transphobic. And one, now deleted, supporting no deal Brexit.

    I had precious little respect for him before but being chairman of a rag like that, just nope.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Oh dear, https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-29/...ection-battle/

    If Lab are going to lead the government, and therefore the country, they need to get this kind of crap under control.
    Just about every Labour constituency group has used, or are in the process of using these new powers of selection to check and reaffirm that they have the right people standing.

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