View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #25221
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Well you got one bit right - it's certainly hella too long for a constitution.

    The EU, obviously.

    Ve know vat eez gut vor you, you zilly plebe, jah, stop zinking for yourzelves...

    Have you even vaguely looked at the original text for the constitution? It's 484 pages. Can you realistically expect the average human to even look past the first 10 pages of "having regards to"
    The first search on google the day after the referendum was "What is the EU" Why would this be hella too long.
    The EU obviously? If anything the EU has been behind Ireland during the all process.
    You can joke all you want about ze french, but ze brits have even less of an excuse. At least we read ze text. You relied on ze Sun.
    You have wormz in your brain.

  2. #25222
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,065
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Have you even vaguely looked at the original text for the constitution? It's 484 pages.
    Don't need to. If a constitution is that long, it's not fit for purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Can you realistically expect the average human to even look past the first 10 pages of "having regards to"
    Then burn them and start over. If the Founding Fathers can put together a constitution for a republic with (including all the amendments) 4,400 words, why the dickens does the EU need 70,000 words - and such dreadful language? Even the UN managed to get in at under 9,000 words.

    Well, we know the reason obviously - to dissuade ordinary people from reading or understanding it. "Oh it's all so complicated, what's on the telly?" is a great result if you're an EU apparatchik trying to get this through by hook or by crook.

    Now sure, the EU Constitution has a lot more in it... but that's kind of the problem, no? Constitutions are generally meant to be the bare bones of the state. Worst case, you just say something like "piracy shall be defined and dealt with as per the Piracy Act 1698" or whatever and move on. I mean, you would if you were going about this honestly, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    The EU obviously? If anything the EU has been behind Ireland during the all process.
    So... we agree? My point was that the Irish being pushed to voting until they "get it right" was due to the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    You can joke all you want about ze french, but ze brits have even less of an excuse. At least we read ze text. You relied on ze Sun.
    Germans not French .
    Still not tired of winning.

  3. #25223
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    The EU "constitution" was another clusterfuck which, like Brexit, should never have been put up for a public vote.
    I've had lengthy discussions with constitutional lawyers and MEPs back in the days who admitted the text was way to complicated and exhaustive for a constitution.
    I'm glad they went down the treaty route in the end.
    My professor was part of the team that drafted the "constitution". He said no such thing, obviously. He gave us the reason for it not being a constitution is largely a political one, that the people of the EU weren't ready to accept anything like a European state at this time. It wasn't too complicated or exhaustive, it was merely too ambitious. Way too ambitious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    All this stuff about an EU army is irrelevant though, we could just veto it, as France probably would as well, I can't see them wanting to hand over their nuclear deterrent.
    France is the major player pushing for a EU defense force and more military cooperation than NATO offers. You've got your perspective backwards. Read the news outside England, otherwise you'll continue to be on the wrong track.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  4. #25224
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    So... we agree? My point was that the Irish being pushed to voting until they "get it right" was due to the EU.
    Because nothing says "voting until you get it right" like being asked what your issues are after a no vote, having those specific issues targeted and addressed by re-negotiation that is tailored to you, and then magically voting yes a second time, since your reasons for voting before no longer apply.

  5. #25225
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    So... we agree? My point was that the Irish being pushed to voting until they "get it right" was due to the EU.
    Or it was

    Irish: We voted no.
    EU: Ok tell us why.
    Irish: We don't like XYZ
    EU: OK we're taking out XYZ how does that sound.
    Irish: We'll have to vote on it
    EU: OK take your time.

    Vote happens with new treaty

    Irish: We voted yes.

  6. #25226
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    My professor was part of the team that drafted the "constitution". He said no such thing, obviously. He gave us the reason for it not being a constitution is largely a political one, that the people of the EU weren't ready to accept anything like a European state at this time. It wasn't too complicated or exhaustive, it was merely too ambitious.
    We'll just disagree again then. The french constitution is 40 pages of guiding principles and core values for the nation. The German one is 50 pages long. The US constitution is about the same.
    The EU is 500 pages long, and includes provisions on social protection, tourism, border checks and more fun stuff.
    I understand the text was needed, but it should not have been called a constitution, and never have been put up for a public vote.

  7. #25227
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    France is the major player pushing for a EU defense force and more military cooperation than NATO offers. You've got your perspective backwards. Read the news outside England, otherwise you'll continue to be on the wrong track.
    It is more nuanced than that. Macron does want an EU defense force and further integration, but only after the EU finds a concrete way to deal with issues like Poland effectively criminalizing sex education and constantly attacking its judiciary. It's the same reason he vetoed Balkan expansion; they do not want to attempt any further investment in the EU project until there are means to censure states that go against European values.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  8. #25228
    Stood in the Fire steristumpie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    365
    Personally I don’t see anything more conservative than staying part of the Roman Republic 2.0. Actually more Roman Empire which was more expansive and culturally inclusive. I think the EU has been marketed very incorrectly. Especially now with the formation of the EU army and the Lisbon Treaty.

    SPQR you filthy Celtic devil tribes
    “The best way to win an argument is to begin by being right.” -Jill Ruckelshaus

  9. #25229
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,290
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    France is the major player pushing for a EU defense force and more military cooperation than NATO offers. You've got your perspective backwards. Read the news outside England, otherwise you'll continue to be on the wrong track.
    That's different from an EU army.

    Furthermore, you keep telling me to read the news outside England, and it's clear no-deal will not be made to be the EU's decision, yet you keep on this wild track that the EU will kick us out with no deal. It is in fact, the UK's press that keep making out that this is the threat from the EU.

  10. #25230
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    We'll just disagree again then. The french constitution is 40 pages of guiding principles and core values for the nation. The German one is 50 pages long. The US constitution is about the same.
    The EU is 500 pages long, and includes provisions on social protection, tourism, border checks and more fun stuff.
    I understand the text was needed, but it should not have been called a constitution, and never have been put up for a public vote.
    500 pages? Where did you get this? The Lisbon treaty is practically word for word the constitution. They just removed the word constitution from it. That's the only trick they pulled.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It is more nuanced than that. Macron does want an EU defense force and further integration, but only after the EU finds a concrete way to deal with issues like Poland effectively criminalizing sex education and constantly attacking its judiciary. It's the same reason he vetoed Balkan expansion; they do not want to attempt any further investment in the EU project until there are means to censure states that go against European values.
    That was not entirely my point. My point was that Jessicke obviously has no clue whatsoever and shouldn't post shit she doesn't know about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    That's different from an EU army.

    Furthermore, you keep telling me to read the news outside England, and it's clear no-deal will not be made to be the EU's decision, yet you keep on this wild track that the EU will kick us out with no deal. It is in fact, the UK's press that keep making out that this is the threat from the EU.
    No, an EU defense force is not an EU army... what? Are you smoking bad weed or something? We don't care what the British press says. Nobody will kick the UK out. The UK is leaving, has been leaving for 3 years now. Will have been leaving? I don't know the grammar for something that should be done in an instant but takes 3 fucking years...

    Anyway, UK not being kicked, UK leaving because UK decided to. EU not letting UK squat and throw feces at EU anymore. Got it?
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  11. #25231
    So, in a further attempt to get his own deal to fail Boris has now set a very aggressive timetable of 3 days to get everything through?
    Afraid people will actually read it and have second thoughts?
    Considering the very slim margins these votes are working around I can't see how Boris legit thinks this is helpful.

    I fully expect the second reading to be voted down today.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #25232
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    So, in a further attempt to get his own deal to fail Boris has now set a very aggressive timetable of 3 days to get everything through?
    Afraid people will actually read it and have second thoughts?
    Considering the very slim margins these votes are working around I can't see how Boris legit thinks this is helpful.

    I fully expect the second reading to be voted down today.
    Isn't it just going to get amended further? I've been hearing about amending a customs union in, which is inane since you cannot just change a deal at such a fundamental level without actually consulting the other party but what did the UK Parliament care anyway. . .
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  13. #25233
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brexitia
    Posts
    2,742
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    I dunno, a few countries have pretty based leaders who don't worship the almighty dollar. Plus it'd be pretty trivial for BoJo to, say, bribe Orban to veto it and then cut tariffs to particular goods that just so happen to be made in Hungary .
    Great Idea. How about we crowdfund it instead to keep Boris squeaky clean? Every brexiteer puts a pound in the pot we'd have 25 million quid by the weekend for the back pocket of an EU leader willing to veto...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    So, in a further attempt to get his own deal to fail Boris has now set a very aggressive timetable of 3 days to get everything through?
    Afraid people will actually read it and have second thoughts?
    Considering the very slim margins these votes are working around I can't see how Boris legit thinks this is helpful.

    I fully expect the second reading to be voted down today.
    Bring on that General Election, in a new parliament those slim margins won't be slim anymore. Polls are beginning to come in after last Saturday.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (20-21 Oct) yougov

    Con - 37%
    Lab - 22%
    Lib Dem - 19%
    Brexit Party - 11%
    Green - 7%
    Other - 5%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/11...850324480?s=09

    I hope those remainer MP's keep voting Boris down, they can't hide from the will of the people forever...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Isn't it just going to get amended further? I've been hearing about amending a customs union in, which is inane since you cannot just change a deal at such a fundamental level without actually consulting the other party but what did the UK Parliament care anyway. . .
    Boris will pull the deal in that event and go for a GE which chicken Corbyn will refuse. Round and round we go messing the EU about exposing them for the impotent fools they are. Delicious.

  14. #25234
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,290
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Isn't it just going to get amended further? I've been hearing about amending a customs union in, which is inane since you cannot just change a deal at such a fundamental level without actually consulting the other party but what did the UK Parliament care anyway. . .
    Yeah. It's to force the government to withdraw the bill. It likely won't go through, but if it did it would actually show there is a parliamentary majority for that and that is what it would take to get a deal through parliament.

    The more realistic amendment is for the final say referendum which is also being tabled.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    500 pages? Where did you get this? The Lisbon treaty is practically word for word the constitution. They just removed the word constitution from it. That's the only trick they pulled.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That was not entirely my point. My point was that Jessicke obviously has no clue whatsoever and shouldn't post shit she doesn't know about.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, an EU defense force is not an EU army... what? Are you smoking bad weed or something? We don't care what the British press says. Nobody will kick the UK out. The UK is leaving, has been leaving for 3 years now. Will have been leaving? I don't know the grammar for something that should be done in an instant but takes 3 fucking years...

    Anyway, UK not being kicked, UK leaving because UK decided to. EU not letting UK squat and throw feces at EU anymore. Got it?
    As I understood, the defence force was supposed to be a small 'rapid reaction' setup, it wouldn't supercede national forces. It certainly wouldn't be an EU Army.

  15. #25235
    UK lawmaker sets out plan to stop no-deal Brexit in December 2020

    Please let it end before it comes to that . . .
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  16. #25236
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,065
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Boris will pull the deal in that event and go for a GE which chicken Corbyn will refuse. Round and round we go messing the EU about exposing them for the impotent fools they are. Delicious.
    Yup. The Torygraph says Labour is expected to abstain during the 2nd reading tonight, but frankly who knows what will happen. I'm still hoping the new agreement gets shot down & we get a clean Brexit on the 31st, but we'll see.
    Still not tired of winning.

  17. #25237
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,290
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Boris will pull the deal in that event and go for a GE which chicken Corbyn will refuse. Round and round we go messing the EU about exposing them for the impotent fools they are. Delicious.
    If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.

  18. #25238
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.
    And yet he is still far more likely to win the election.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  19. #25239
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,065
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.
    He's legally obliged to ask for an extension, per the Surrender Act. Bit of a difference between voluntarily and involuntarily asking for one, no?

    That said, an extension, though IMHO likely, is not certain by any means.
    Still not tired of winning.

  20. #25240
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    UK lawmaker sets out plan to stop no-deal Brexit in December 2020

    Please let it end before it comes to that . . .
    This is a very real possibility. Even if Boris's deal is accept this isn't the end of it, this is just the start of the real negotiations, there will be a transition period until 2020 during which the UK and EU would hash out a trade deal, the current deal's being discussed are not a trade deal, just a decision on how to split.
    If the deal wouldn't be done by the end of 2020 the UK could still have a hard exit on WTO terms, and negotiating a trade deal in a little over a year is a VERY tough ask, these things can normally take a decade to sort out.
    There is a very real fear among certain MP's that Boris would use this to still get the hard brexit that he seems to want to much.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •