View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #25221
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    In answer to your question - Google the requirements for EU membership.
    Oh, great, you've googled them? So it should be easy for you to tell which requirements scotland doesn't meet.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  2. #25222
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Fast track for what?

    In answer to your question - Google the requirements for EU membership.

    Scotland was not let down. The vote was on the UK's membership of the EU - not England's, Scotland's, Wales' or N. Ireland's - everybody knew this going into the referendum and every single voter in Scotland had just as much say in it as voters in the rest of UK.
    Tell me again what exactly they would be unable to meet in a reasonable time period, considering they were in EU for decades and the basic framework is in place?

    Yes, it was about UK. Yet what you are trying to do is to hide behind that and ignore that Scottland voted against it. Just because overall the whole country left, DOES NOT MEAN that you can just brush Scottland's results under the rug and ignore them and hope that Scotts will have enough with that reasoning.
    Seriously, do you not understand what I am saying?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  3. #25223
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Tell me again what exactly they would be unable to meet in a reasonable time period, considering they were in EU for decades and the basic framework is in place?

    Yes, it was about UK. Yet what you are trying to do is to hide behind that and ignore that Scottland voted against it. Just because overall the whole country left, DOES NOT MEAN that you can just brush Scottland's results under the rug and ignore them and hope that Scotts will have enough with that reasoning.
    Seriously, do you not understand what I am saying?
    It is quite obvious that you've not looked up the requirements for consideration to become an EU member. I'm not going to do the leg work for you but I will give you a little clue - what does the EU say about a potential member state's market economy and what do you think Scotland lacks in this area? Whilst you're at it you could also Google - Prodi doctrine.

    London, Leeds, Harrogate, Tunbridge Wells, etc all voted to remain as did my house none of which is relevant. Obviously the SNP will play on this to push their anti-English agenda but it is far from given that the UK leaving the EU will lead to their much prized IndyRef2 let alone a Yes victory.

    Why do you think the fault lays with my understanding of your point and not it's premise?

  4. #25224
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Tell me again what exactly they would be unable to meet in a reasonable time period, considering they were in EU for decades and the basic framework is in place?

    Yes, it was about UK. Yet what you are trying to do is to hide behind that and ignore that Scottland voted against it. Just because overall the whole country left, DOES NOT MEAN that you can just brush Scottland's results under the rug and ignore them and hope that Scotts will have enough with that reasoning.
    Seriously, do you not understand what I am saying?
    If Scotland becomes independant it will first have to disentangle itself from the UK, and just by looking at what a mess just sorting out the irish border is, I can easily see 3-4 years of transition before Scottland is fully independant. Then it could apply for accession to the eu and while they meet the stability criterias, I can see quite some sticking points during the process. Border with the UK, fisheries, the euro to name a few. And it would not have the weight the UK had during those negotiations.

  5. #25225
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It is quite obvious that you've not looked up the requirements for consideration to become an EU member. I'm not going to do the leg work for you but I will give you a little clue - what does the EU say about a potential member state's market economy and what do you think Scotland lacks in this area? Whilst you're at it you could also Google - Prodi doctrine.

    London, Leeds, Harrogate, Tunbridge Wells, etc all voted to remain as did my house none of which is relevant. Obviously the SNP will play on this to push their anti-English agenda but it is far from given that the UK leaving the EU will lead to their much prized IndyRef2 let alone a Yes victory.

    Why do you think the fault lays with my understanding of your point and not it's premise?
    "a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU"

    I fail to see what Scottland would lack in this regard after couple of years of work after separation (if such occurs. For the sake of discussion, let's have it). Really want to compare them to North Macedonia? Very funny.

    Prodi doctrine? Again, after the secession is done, why exactly would Scottland not be able to quickly ascend the talks? The doctrine is about automatic membership, which I never said Scottland would have, just that they would be on a "fast track", as legal framework is quite literally already in the place, unless you think the theoretical Scottland would overwrite all existing laws just because to something not compatible with EU. Lol.

    Your fault lies with the very basic failure of understanding that a significant part of your population, concentrated in a clearly defined region with historic question of independence, was said NO by others and you seemingly think that they will just accept it like it does not matter at all. That is ignorance.
    Once more, it is just few politicians in form of SNP. SCOTTS AS A WHOLE clearly voted against Brexit.
    London will either give them concessions, or there will be internal issues in the future. If you dont understand that, then, really, I have nothing more to say to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #25226
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post

    Your fault lies with the very basic failure of understanding that a significant part of your population, concentrated in a clearly defined region with historic question of independence, was said NO by others and you seemingly think that they will just accept it like it does not matter at all. That is ignorance.
    .
    Yeah well you've got no leverage at all because Scotland didn't vote for independence. Basically all Scotland and the SNP has done recently is make it very easy for the Tories to win elections by radicalizing Unionists throughout the UK. Either vote for independence or quit whining about everything, no one else cares.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It is quite obvious that you've not looked up the requirements for consideration to become an EU member. I'm not going to do the leg work for you but I will give you a little clue - what does the EU say about a potential member state's market economy and what do you think Scotland lacks in this area? Whilst you're at it you could also Google - Prodi doctrine.

    London, Leeds, Harrogate, Tunbridge Wells, etc all voted to remain as did my house none of which is relevant. Obviously the SNP will play on this to push their anti-English agenda but it is far from given that the UK leaving the EU will lead to their much prized IndyRef2 let alone a Yes victory.

    Why do you think the fault lays with my understanding of your point and not it's premise?
    You know something Pann? We are in fucking quarantine. No one cares about this shit apart from a tiny minority of anoraks. Yet there you are blathering on day after day about it. Droning on about this shitty race war you have going. Negotiations can't even take place right now.

  7. #25227
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    "a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU"

    I fail to see what Scottland would lack in this regard after couple of years of work after separation (if such occurs. For the sake of discussion, let's have it). Really want to compare them to North Macedonia? Very funny.

    Prodi doctrine? Again, after the secession is done, why exactly would Scottland not be able to quickly ascend the talks? The doctrine is about automatic membership, which I never said Scottland would have, just that they would be on a "fast track", as legal framework is quite literally already in the place, unless you think the theoretical Scottland would overwrite all existing laws just because to something not compatible with EU. Lol.

    Your fault lies with the very basic failure of understanding that a significant part of your population, concentrated in a clearly defined region with historic question of independence, was said NO by others and you seemingly think that they will just accept it like it does not matter at all. That is ignorance.
    Once more, it is just few politicians in form of SNP. SCOTTS AS A WHOLE clearly voted against Brexit.
    London will either give them concessions, or there will be internal issues in the future. If you dont understand that, then, really, I have nothing more to say to you.
    Scotland has no currency of its own. It also has no central bank of its own in order to set up its own currency and currently runs at a deficit (higher than the rest of the UK) so therefore has no ability - without an extremely aggressive austerity program - to build the required surplus needed to setup it own currency and central bank.

    The SNP's own estimates are that it would require around a decade to set all this up but according to you it would only take a couple of years?!?

    You are aware that there are organisations that are paid to ask people about this kind of thing? The results of these, let's call them, polls are published in the public domain and they do not support what you are saying - the vast majority polling since the EU ref. shows that Scots are in favour of remaining part of the UK and that the results are broadly similar to those results attained before the 2016 ref.

    Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain in the EU to suggest that there is now a similar amount of Scots in favour of independence is demonstrably false.

    To sum where your argument falls down - Scotland would need permission from Westminster to hold a ref which it is unlikely to get for at least another four and half years, polling does not support your claims and even if Scotland was somehow able to become independent it is several years away from meeting the EU's requirements to become a member and all this is before the issues caused by Brexit and Covid.

  8. #25228
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Scotland has no currency of its own. It also has no central bank of its own in order to set up its own currency and currently runs at a deficit (higher than the rest of the UK) so therefore has no ability - without an extremely aggressive austerity program - to build the required surplus needed to setup it own currency and central bank.

    The SNP's own estimates are that it would require around a decade to set all this up but according to you it would only take a couple of years?!?

    You are aware that there are organisations that are paid to ask people about this kind of thing? The results of these, let's call them, polls are published in the public domain and they do not support what you are saying - the vast majority polling since the EU ref. shows that Scots are in favour of remaining part of the UK and that the results are broadly similar to those results attained before the 2016 ref.

    Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain in the EU to suggest that there is now a similar amount of Scots in favour of independence is demonstrably false.

    To sum where your argument falls down - Scotland would need permission from Westminster to hold a ref which it is unlikely to get for at least another four and half years, polling does not support your claims and even if Scotland was somehow able to become independent it is several years away from meeting the EU's requirements to become a member and all this is before the issues caused by Brexit and Covid.
    Christ, even more of this shit NOW? If the UK got hit by a fucking meteorite you'd still be droning about your pathetic irrelevant tribal disputes.

  9. #25229
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Findrast View Post
    You know something Pann? We are in fucking quarantine. No one cares about this shit apart from a tiny minority of anoraks. Yet there you are blathering on day after day about it. Droning on about this shitty race war you have going.
    Quote Originally Posted by Findrast View Post
    Christ, even more of this shit NOW? If the UK got hit by a fucking meteorite you'd still be droning about your pathetic irrelevant tribal disputes.
    What did you expect in the Brexit mega-thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Findrast View Post
    Negotiations can't even take place right now.
    Video- and phone- calls were uninvented (disinvented?) December 2019. As were emails and the international postal system.
    Still not tired of winning.

  10. #25230
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    What did you expect in the Brexit mega-thread?


    Video- and phone- calls were uninvented (disinvented?) December 2019. As were emails and the international postal system.
    Are you fucking insane? 30,000 people dead and you STILL want to drone on and on about your fucking tedious little race war. No one with a fucking brain cares right now.

  11. #25231
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Why do people act as if the negotiations have stopped? They are ongoing
    Technically perhaps but the time of the people who can actually make important decisions is very limited.

  12. #25232
    The Lightbringer
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    Oh my, silly me thought it would be this...

    Spain, Italy and Greece could all launch their own EU exit referendums, in the wake of bitter rifts inside the bloc

    but it even looks like the EU's top dog Germany have had enough of EU nonsense.

    Germany's top court stunned EU leaders this week after claiming that the EU's own laws were not legally binding in Germany.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...n-court-ruling

    Will there even be an EU left for the UK to transition out of come December!?!

  13. #25233
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Oh my, silly me thought it would be this...

    Spain, Italy and Greece could all launch their own EU exit referendums, in the wake of bitter rifts inside the bloc

    but it even looks like the EU's top dog Germany have had enough of EU nonsense.

    Germany's top court stunned EU leaders this week after claiming that the EU's own laws were not legally binding in Germany.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...n-court-ruling

    Will there even be an EU left for the UK to transition out of come December!?!
    This is a strange case. As I understand it, when the Euro was created Germany was concerned about handing over control of its money supply and as a result the treaty never overrode BBk's obligations in German law - the ECB sets policy but its implementation is down to the national central bank - therefore is odd that the ECJ is claiming that EU law is superior in this case.

    It is likely that BBk will be able to convince the court that this action is appropriate and nothing will come of it but if cannot the program would continue and Germany would not be able to continue to take part.

    On another note negotiations are set to continue next week but unless there is major movement I cannot see anything coming of them. However it is worth noting that we were in roughly the same position last year, with the WA negotiations deadlocked, and an agreement was found at the last minute.

    Also, slightly related to Brexit - the Met. has dropped its investigation of Be Leave's founder, Darren Grimes.

  14. #25234
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Spain, Italy and Greece could all launch their own EU exit referendums, in the wake of bitter rifts inside the bloc
    Timing is everything. If the leave movements can ride the wave of anti-EU feeling over the handling of the wuflu then they stand a much better chance of winning any referendum. I'm not sure how likely that is though, given these things take time to organise & all that. What with summer coming up, a referendum could easily be put off until autumn or later, by which time the wuflu will be basically over & things will probably be returning to normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It is likely that BBk will be able to convince the court that this action is appropriate and nothing will come of it but if cannot the program would continue and Germany would not be able to continue to take part.
    My guess is that the politicians will more or less ignore the ramifications of the ruling. There's an awful lot of inertia behind continuing with the European "project", and whilst I hope @dribbles has it right, I expect things will continue on regardless of this ruling.

    Couple of related links to this court case:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52542993
    https://europeanlawblog.eu/2020/05/0...judicial-tango
    Still not tired of winning.

  15. #25235
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    This is a strange case. As I understand it, when the Euro was created Germany was concerned about handing over control of its money supply and as a result the treaty never overrode BBk's obligations in German law - the ECB sets policy but its implementation is down to the national central bank - therefore is odd that the ECJ is claiming that EU law is superior in this case.

    It is likely that BBk will be able to convince the court that this action is appropriate and nothing will come of it but if cannot the program would continue and Germany would not be able to continue to take part.

    On another note negotiations are set to continue next week but unless there is major movement I cannot see anything coming of them. However it is worth noting that we were in roughly the same position last year, with the WA negotiations deadlocked, and an agreement was found at the last minute.

    Also, slightly related to Brexit - the Met. has dropped its investigation of Be Leave's founder, Darren Grimes.
    Well President Von der Leyen doesn't sound very happy with Germany when she threatens yesterday:-

    "The final word on EU law is always spoken in Luxembourg. Nowhere else." That told them and then'she says...

    “We will look into possible next steps, which may include the option of infringement proceedings”

    Germany to get kicked out of the EU? We were so lucky to have had the sense and voted to leave when we did in what is now a vindication of all Brexit supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Timing is everything. If the leave movements can ride the wave of anti-EU feeling over the handling of the wuflu then they stand a much better chance of winning any referendum. I'm not sure how likely that is though, given these things take time to organise & all that. What with summer coming up, a referendum could easily be put off until autumn or later, by which time the wuflu will be basically over & things will probably be returning to normal.
    I think it is very telling how vocal our eurochums and remainers were prior to the Brexit referendum and as time has passed by, EU unity has crumbled over Brexit and the coronavirus, you barely hear a whimper out of them in defence of the failed EU experiment now. In a years time will anyone in the UK publicly admit to voting remain?

    Meanwhile the forward looking UK stands firmly united and ready for the fantastic opportunities January 1st 2021 brings.

  16. #25236
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    I think it is very telling how vocal our eurochums and remainers were prior to the Brexit referendum and as time has passed by, EU unity has crumbled over Brexit and the coronavirus, you barely hear a whimper out of them in defence of the failed EU experiment now. In a years time will anyone in the UK publicly admit to voting remain?

    Meanwhile the forward looking UK stands firmly united and ready for the fantastic opportunities January 1st 2021 brings.
    You don't hear us saying anything, because you didn't hear anything when we were speaking. You sat in your little unicorn enclosure shouting "LALALA" whenever inconvenient facts were presented to you. And when Brexit goes horribly, catastrophically wrong, you will be back here explaining how it is all the fault of Covid, and nothing to do with Brexit. When the rest of Europe recovers quicker and better than us, you'll still be ignoring the facts.

    When the Brexit crew are running this country in the same fucked up way they've managed Covid 19, and the whole thing is collapsing round their ears, you still won't be admitting you were wrong, or taking any responsibility. You are incapable of either.

    So yes, we've given up talking to you, because there is no point. We'll be back, once we actually leave (either the end of this year, or later if Boris isn't completely fucking stupid) and the implications of that leaving become unmistakeable to everyone except you. In the meantime, you Teleros and Pann can enjoy the circle-jerk of "aren't the EU terrible"..."aren't the UK going great now"...."wasn't the referendum perfectly fair" on this thread. I can always come back here for a laugh from time to time, even if presenting you with inconvenient truths is utterly pointless.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
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  17. #25237
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    You don't hear us saying anything, because you didn't hear anything when we were speaking. You sat in your little unicorn enclosure shouting "LALALA" whenever inconvenient facts were presented to you. And when Brexit goes horribly, catastrophically wrong, you will be back here explaining how it is all the fault of Covid, and nothing to do with Brexit. When the rest of Europe recovers quicker and better than us, you'll still be ignoring the facts.

    When the Brexit crew are running this country in the same fucked up way they've managed Covid 19, and the whole thing is collapsing round their ears, you still won't be admitting you were wrong, or taking any responsibility. You are incapable of either.

    So yes, we've given up talking to you, because there is no point. We'll be back, once we actually leave (either the end of this year, or later if Boris isn't completely fucking stupid) and the implications of that leaving become unmistakeable to everyone except you. In the meantime, you Teleros and Pann can enjoy the circle-jerk of "aren't the EU terrible"..."aren't the UK going great now"...."wasn't the referendum perfectly fair" on this thread. I can always come back here for a laugh from time to time, even if presenting you with inconvenient truths is utterly pointless.
    Be glad that Boris managed to get sick by the virus early and that moved him in to being more logical in his handling of the virus. Or else you would be a government still very much and fully in denial that this is virus is a real thing.

    I don't think anyone takes those three seriously to be honest.

  18. #25238
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Well President Von der Leyen doesn't sound very happy with Germany when she threatens yesterday:-

    "The final word on EU law is always spoken in Luxembourg. Nowhere else." That told them and then'she says...

    “We will look into possible next steps, which may include the option of infringement proceedings”

    Germany to get kicked out of the EU? We were so lucky to have had the sense and voted to leave when we did in what is now a vindication of all Brexit supporters.
    Germany will not be kicked out the EU. From what I can gather the German courts have not said that any wrong doing has taken place only that BBk has to justify that the ECB policy was proportional, I suspect that BBk will be able to come up with a compelling argument as to why it was proportional within the three month time frame and nothing more will come this.

    I think that the butting of heads between the ECJ and the German courts over who has superiority when it comes to monetary policy will rumble on and on but it will be nothing more than a minor distraction.

  19. #25239
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    that moved him in to being more logical in his handling of the virus. Or else you would be a government still very much and fully in denial that this is virus is a real thing.
    Sweden: allegedly 244 deaths per million due to wuflu.
    UK: allegedly 384 deaths per million due to wuflu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Germany will not be kicked out the EU.
    That's just @dribbles seeing who will bite .

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    From what I can gather the German courts have not said that any wrong doing has taken place only that BBk has to justify that the ECB policy was proportional, I suspect that BBk will be able to come up with a compelling argument as to why it was proportional within the three month time frame and nothing more will come this.
    The FCC found that by pursuing the objective of monetary policy ‘unconditionally while ignoring the economic policy effects resulting from the programme, the ECB manifestly disregards the principle of proportionality’ (para 165).

    From that blog I posted. Still think your ultimate conclusion is correct though.
    Still not tired of winning.

  20. #25240
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    That's just @dribbles seeing who will bite .


    The FCC found that by pursuing the objective of monetary policy ‘unconditionally while ignoring the economic policy effects resulting from the programme, the ECB manifestly disregards the principle of proportionality’ (para 165).

    From that blog I posted. Still think your ultimate conclusion is correct though.
    I didn't come down in the last shower.

    Yep, that's my point BBk has thus far failed to show that the actions taken were proportional but I have little doubt that they will they will be able convince the court that they did follow the principles by the deadline.

    Quite honestly this has nothing to do with Brexit and I would argue that it is not really an EU issue but a problem with the Euro.

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