[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Demolitia]

500 pages? Where did you get this? The Lisbon treaty is practically word for word the constitution. They just removed the word constitution from it. That's the only trick they pulled.

my bad sorry, the 500 pages were including the protocols and signatures and useless blabla, so you can trim it down to 200 or so, but it's still a chunky document that covers much more than you usually see in other constitutions.
https://europa.eu/european-union/sit..._europe_en.pdf

It was ambitious and necessary, which is why they passed it as a Treaty when France and the Netherlands rejected it, but you can't really expect people to read something like that and cast an informed vote.

[Nymrohd]

This is a very real possibility. Even if Boris's deal is accept this isn't the end of it, this is just the start of the real negotiations, there will be a transition period until 2020 during which the UK and EU would hash out a trade deal, the current deal's being discussed are not a trade deal, just a decision on how to split.
If the deal wouldn't be done by the end of 2020 the UK could still have a hard exit on WTO terms, and negotiating a trade deal in a little over a year is a VERY tough ask, these things can normally take a decade to sort out.
There is a very real fear among certain MP's that Boris would use this to still get the hard brexit that he seems to want to much.

I think perhaps the best counter argument to BoJo's "We will be done with Brexit ASAP" would be a committed effort to explain to the people of the UK that the actual trade deal will take about a decade and possibly more.

[Jessicka]

And yet he is still far more likely to win the election.

He would have to campaign a GE on his Brexit deal.

And he might get the largest party, but by no means is he guaranteed anything close to a majority.

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He's legally obliged to ask for an extension, per the Surrender Act. Bit of a difference between voluntarily and involuntarily asking for one, no?

That said, an extension, though IMHO likely, is not certain by any means.

Irrelevant really. There’s now plenty of time for a GE, if he’s forced to pull the deal he can put his money where his mouth is and ask for a GE he was so desperate for a couple of weeks ago. There’s no reason for the opposition not to take it, he’s out of road for his posturing.

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So Government confirm they'll pull the bill if the timetable motion is defeated, and EU grant the extension; which is basically assured because we'd then need it. Looks like they want a general election.

[Nymrohd]

So Government confirm they'll pull the bill if the timetable motion is defeated, and EU grant the extension; which is basically assured because we'd then need it. Looks like they want a general election.

Which shows they are confident they can win the elections

[dribbles]

If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.

You think chicken Corbyn will go for it this time? Boris can't have one without the chickens agreement, this extension is Corbyns fault. Meanwhile up and up Boris soars in the polls, such is the will of the people...

British people don't like chickens.

[Pann]

Something is wrong... very wrong

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/s...265352704?s=20

[Jessicka]

You think chicken Corbyn will go for it this time? Boris can't have one without the chickens agreement, this extension is Corbyns fault. Meanwhile up and up Boris soars in the polls, such is the will of the people...

British people don't like chickens.

Yes, I absolutely think he'll go for it, I'm actually surprised Boris will now that there's a risk of it happening.

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Something is wrong... very wrong

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/s...265352704?s=20

And Boris will have to campaign a GE on a deal even Brexit Fuhrer Farage thinks is unacceptable...

[dribbles]

Yes, I absolutely think he'll go for it, I'm actually surprised Boris will now that there's a risk of it happening.

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And Boris will have to campaign a GE on a deal even Brexit Fuhrer Farage thinks is unacceptable...

Not at all, this compromise by brexiteers for the remainers messy deal is off the table after a Tory landslide.

A general election will bring a cleaner brexit more quickly than the deal on offer now.

Let's see which way the Corbyn hen clucks later on today, fingers X he lays that golden egg gift to brexiteers like me and we get that GE immediately. I wouldn't bet he has the backbone to do it though...

[Jessicka]

Not at all, this compromise by brexiteers for the remainers messy deal is off the table after a Tory landslide.

A general election will bring a cleaner brexit more quickly than the deal on offer now.

Let's see which way the Corbyn hen clucks later on today, fingers X he lays that golden egg gift to brexiteers like me and we get that GE immediately. I wouldn't bet he has the backbone to do it though...

How can Boris possibly campaign a GE on anything other than his deal? If he gives it up, he admits Parliament was right to ditch it. That doesn’t fit his people vs Parliament narrative.

[Gorsameth]

How can Boris possibly campaign a GE on anything other than his deal? If he gives it up, he admits Parliament was right to ditch it. That doesn’t fit his people vs Parliament narrative.

Boris can just ignore his own deal and push through a hard Brexit if he has enough votes after a new GE.

Or he goes for the 'I compromised on this deal to please Labour and they said no so if I get a majority I will get an even better deal!' And while the likes of dribbles will eat that up, the rest of the country probably won't.

[Xarkan]

How can Boris possibly campaign a GE on anything other than his deal? If he gives it up, he admits Parliament was right to ditch it. That doesn’t fit his people vs Parliament narrative.

When was truth part of Boris Windhairs stick?

[Pann]

Is this what it has come to?

'Getting seriously worried that HMG will pull Bill if Programme Motion is defeated. Surely best for all of us who regard this deal as the least of the evils to vote for the Programme Motion, whatever we really think of it.'

https://twitter.com/oletwinofficial/...59454118514690

Don't worry that the bill might be shit - vote for it anyway!

[Slant]

my bad sorry, the 500 pages were including the protocols and signatures and useless blabla, so you can trim it down to 200 or so, but it's still a chunky document that covers much more than you usually see in other constitutions.
https://europa.eu/european-union/sit..._europe_en.pdf

It was ambitious and necessary, which is why they passed it as a Treaty when France and the Netherlands rejected it, but you can't really expect people to read something like that and cast an informed vote.

Well, yes, it is 200 pages. But I'd argue that in today's times, with modern constitutions, it's not that uncommon. We know a lot more about how to structure... let's call it country-like entities. As I said before, you don't get away with slapping a constitution on one page and call it a day. Too many loopholes.

[Demolitia]

Well, yes, it is 200 pages. But I'd argue that in today's times, with modern constitutions, it's not that uncommon. We know a lot more about how to structure... let's call it country-like entities. As I said before, you don't get away with slapping a constitution on one page and call it a day. Too many loopholes.

It makes sense that it should be longer than a regular one. I question however the wisdom of having 40 pages laying out internal policies and then calling it a constitution.

Anyway, that's a bit of pointless bickering. It came into force anyway under another name, and that's good. This was just another example of "don't ask the people stuff they won't read and digest themselves because somebody will weaponize it" just like a Brexit referendum.

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Is this what it has come to?

'Getting seriously worried that HMG will pull Bill if Programme Motion is defeated. Surely best for all of us who regard this deal as the least of the evils to vote for the Programme Motion, whatever we really think of it.'

https://twitter.com/oletwinofficial/...59454118514690

Don't worry that the bill might be shit - vote for it anyway!

Looks like another day in the Commons from that side of the pond XD

[Rochana]

It makes sense that it should be longer than a regular one. I question however the wisdom of having 40 pages laying out internal policies and then calling it a constitution.

Anyway, that's a bit of pointless bickering. It came into force anyway under another name, and that's good. This was just another example of "don't ask the people stuff they won't read and digest themselves because somebody will weaponize it" just like a Brexit referendum.

It's the technocratic conundrum.

Society and systems (in all domains) are becoming more complex, harder to understand for laymen, and thus easier to be explained and portrayed as dysfunctional by populists.

The only thing holding back human progress right now is the median human education.

[Pann]

Brexit bill clears its first hurdle as MPs back the deal by 329 to 299 - but key timetable vote is yet to come

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ments-50136270

[Slant]

It's the technocratic conundrum.

Society and systems (in all domains) are becoming more complex, harder to understand for laymen, and thus easier to be explained and portrayed as dysfunctional by populists.

The only thing holding back human progress right now is the median human education.

This is so important to realize.

[Kallisto]

Damn MPs should have called his bluff and voted against it. Anything short of keeping full free movement and in the 4 freedoms need to be rejected out of principle.

[Pann]

The timetable bill has been rejected! 322-308

[Gorsameth]

I didn't expect the bill itself to make it, but the timetable failed.
So now the UK waits for the EU to decide to give a small extension?

well congratulations to the UK parliament to decide on something for the first time.