View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #25261
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Belgium, Flanders
    Posts
    18,230
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU is not a single country, it was 28 now 27, unlike the US, China, or Britain. Your graph pretends by comparison that it is. It would have been much fairer to pick some random countries in the EU as comparables to the UK and show the graph in that case, I give you an example modified from your link containing almost half the remaining EU constituents which is much more realistic.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...name_desc=true

    You say you can read a graph well then please do so. I give you facts, you provide the conspiracies, report yourself.
    That's nice dear, but the EU has been consistently acting as one single trade block and nothing the UK had to offer has changed that. All negotiations happen on an EU level not a member state level.

    So Easo is right and you're wrong, as usual

  2. #25262
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    The Sunny Uplands
    Posts
    3,803
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    That's nice dear, but the EU has been consistently acting as one single trade block and nothing the UK had to offer has changed that. All negotiations happen on an EU level not a member state level.

    So Easo is right and you're wrong, as usual
    Lol except when it suits them hey? Such as in the recent global pandemic emergency...

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ask-export-ban

    Not much of a trade bloc if you ask me, figment of your imagination perhaps dear?
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  3. #25263
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Belgium, Flanders
    Posts
    18,230
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Lol except when it suits them hey? Such as in the recent global pandemic emergency...

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ask-export-ban

    Not much of a trade bloc if you ask me, figment of your imagination perhaps dear?
    Step two; Post a random article about something unrelated?

    You are free to explain how this factors in the EU-UK talks, or how this even impacted the trade bloc on that.

    Desperation starting to hit home?

  4. #25264
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU is not a single country, it was 28 now 27, unlike the US, China, or Britain. Your graph pretends by comparison that it is. It would have been much fairer to pick some random countries in the EU as comparables to the UK and show the graph in that case, I give you an example modified from your link containing almost half the remaining EU constituents which is much more realistic.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...name_desc=true

    You say you can read a graph well then please do so. I give you facts, you provide the conspiracies, report yourself.
    You can be obtuse all you want, it does not change the fact that UK is negotiating with the block as a whole, not individual countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  5. #25265
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Ding, ding, ding we have a winner!

    The UK is highly reliant on others, for some absurd reason the conservatives in the UK have been gradually but effectively destroying their manufacturing industry. The automotive industry is going follow during this Brexit, even if we exclude tariffs that industry is reliant on moving parts from one factory to another to remain cost efficient and parts simply can't end up being stuck at border due to lack of a proper frame work on the UK side, if we include tariffs that's going to hurt the sales in an already highly competitive market and this was all before the corona crisis made the market crash, right after the industry took another large hit.

    Cynics said that this brexit is simply an attempt to privatize institutes mostly to open up the way for politics and politicians becoming an even better way to become rich with very little effort. Guess they were right.
    i don't really blame the cons for that, all they ever really did was privatise them and remove subsidies, which was essentially just turning off the life support on a long comatose industry.

    end of the day British manufacturing and mining died at the hands of country's like china, Taiwan, India e.t.c that simply out compete western nations on price. even with lower wages and less workers rights the titan that was american manufacturing eventually underwent the same fall, same with Germany, i cant think of any western nation that hasn't had to shift its industry in response to rising eastern manufacturing based economy's.

    what i do blame the cons for, is how callous they were to the people who's lives and communities were dependant on those industry's, all the wealth in the space of a decade was suddenly centralised in London and a huge gulf was created between London and the rest of the UK both socially, economically and politically, from which it could be argued the first roots of our current problems arise, its ironic in a way that a problem the conservatives caused in the 80s is one of the major contributors to the eventual collapse of the red wall and labour support out side the big urban cities that were hit hardest by the transition of industry. though i imagine that is mostly down to Blair who dispute running the country for over a decade did very little to redistribute the wealth out of London and to the rest of the UK.

    i think that's what makes Brexit so interesting to watch, unlike a lot of politics around the world, where a Left v Right mentality has dominated, Brexit is a lot more messy and has become the battle field for a lot of internal differences within the right and left wing parties. again something that's added to the cons success, bojo taking power, as bad as it was for any one who want to remain was a boon for the conservative party as before the 2019 election he purged a lot of the pro-eu cons like may and those she was trying to form a compromise with between the Brexit and anti-Brexit elements from the party, where as Corbyn who was anti-eu himself attempted to maintain the notion of compromise within labour that prevailed during the May years, a notion that i think 99% of us realised was not going to happen on such a fundamental and important topic. and that along with a whole host of other issues made up part of labours historic defeat at the polls.

    its all interesting stuff and im sure people will be writing about it for years to come, diagnosing and deep diving what happend.

  6. #25266
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    i don't really blame the cons for that, all they ever really did was privatise them and remove subsidies, which was essentially just turning off the life support on a long comatose industry.

    end of the day British manufacturing and mining died at the hands of country's like china, Taiwan, India e.t.c that simply out compete western nations on price. even with lower wages and less workers rights the titan that was american manufacturing eventually underwent the same fall, same with Germany, i cant think of any western nation that hasn't had to shift its industry in response to rising eastern manufacturing based economy's.

    what i do blame the cons for, is how callous they were to the people who's lives and communities were dependant on those industry's, all the wealth in the space of a decade was suddenly centralised in London and a huge gulf was created between London and the rest of the UK both socially, economically and politically, from which it could be argued the first roots of our current problems arise, its ironic in a way that a problem the conservatives caused in the 80s is one of the major contributors to the eventual collapse of the red wall and labour support out side the big urban cities that were hit hardest by the transition of industry. though i imagine that is mostly down to Blair who dispute running the country for over a decade did very little to redistribute the wealth out of London and to the rest of the UK.

    i think that's what makes Brexit so interesting to watch, unlike a lot of politics around the world, where a Left v Right mentality has dominated, Brexit is a lot more messy and has become the battle field for a lot of internal differences within the right and left wing parties. again something that's added to the cons success, bojo taking power, as bad as it was for any one who want to remain was a boon for the conservative party as before the 2019 election he purged a lot of the pro-eu cons like may and those she was trying to form a compromise with between the Brexit and anti-Brexit elements from the party, where as Corbyn who was anti-eu himself attempted to maintain the notion of compromise within labour that prevailed during the May years, a notion that i think 99% of us realised was not going to happen on such a fundamental and important topic. and that along with a whole host of other issues made up part of labours historic defeat at the polls.

    its all interesting stuff and im sure people will be writing about it for years to come, diagnosing and deep diving what happend.
    Hu, tariffs and quotas seem to be just random words with no meaning to you.

    Other countries are cheaper, welp that's it folks, nothing we can do about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  7. #25267
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hu, tariffs and quotas seem to be just random words with no meaning to you.

    Other countries are cheaper, welp that's it folks, nothing we can do about that.
    ...... yes because the British government can set the tariffs on Chinese steel sold to other nations than the UK......... wait.....no that's not how that works.

    like what is your point? we had all those things, doesn't make a difference when the industry post the end of the British empire was heavily reliant on exporting its goods to other nations to sustain its self. the end of the empire was the end of internal demand high enough to support the size and scale British manufacturing was at.
    Last edited by Monster Hunter; 2020-07-04 at 03:50 PM.

  8. #25268
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    what i do blame the cons for, is how callous they were to the people who's lives and communities were dependant on those industry's, all the wealth in the space of a decade was suddenly centralised in London and a huge gulf was created between London and the rest of the UK both socially, economically and politically, from which it could be argued the first roots of our current problems arise
    Yep, I agree with this. And it gets to the heart of one of many of the problems the UK faces. Instead of brutalising e.g., the coal miners & their communities in the 80s an alternative tack would have been, you know, just to help them. Targeted support. Thatcher's administration failed in this regard leaving deprived communities in the industrial heartlands to rot. And, yes, Nu Labour did nothing to reverse this trend. Good piece here: https://www.theguardian.com/business...becoming-clear

    Either way, though, the problem at hand is that after 30 years of deindustrialisation, promotion of London-centric policies, etc. it's a bit too fucking late now, and I've got absolutely zero time for niche industry representatives like Bertie (quoted above) telling us we "shouldn't be afraid of tariffs".

    Remember Liam Fox in 2017?

    The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.

    So, was he lying or was he grossly incompetent? Which one?

  9. #25269
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    ...... yes because the British government can set the tariffs on Chinese steel sold to other nations than the UK......... wait.....no that's not how that works.
    Yes, it could, while in the EU. Also, what do you think trade agreements are about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    like what is your point? we had all those things, doesn't make a difference when the industry post the end of the British empire was heavily reliant on exporting its goods to other nations to sustain its self. the end of the empire was the end of internal demand high enough to support the size and scale British manufacturing was at.
    Are you aware that there are other countries in Europe especially 27 who you were in a trading bloc with?

    Seriously, saying this was a dying industry after the end of the British empire because of Chinese steel is kind of ignoring that china started to really export steel at around the year 2004.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    So, was he lying or was he grossly incompetent? Which one?
    He could be an incompetent liar, just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  10. #25270
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    He could be an incompetent liar, just saying.
    lol, yep, my bad

    Personally, I'd come down more on the side of liar than incompetent. Although I dislike his political views, I associate utter incompetency with e.g., Chris Grayling, Gavin Williamson etc. And pathological liar with BJ. Maybe he's a 75 - 25 split.

  11. #25271
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    end of the day British manufacturing and mining died at the hands of country's like china, Taiwan, India e.t.c that simply out compete western nations on price. even with lower wages and less workers rights the titan that was american manufacturing eventually underwent the same fall, same with Germany, i cant think of any western nation that hasn't had to shift its industry in response to rising eastern manufacturing based economy's.
    Not disputing most of what you wrote here but German manufacturing is still very strong, no? 47% compared to, as you pointed out, around 10% in USA or UK...

    I'm sure that's down to them having the entire EU by the balls or something, that's certainly what I've heard, but nevertheless to claim Germany has undergone the same decline in manufacturing as USA and UK isn't accurate, I didn't think... Or am I missing something?

    Cherry picking stats, Germany has a bigger economy than India, and a much greater proportion is manufacturing (47% vs 23%). Again, just plucking stuff from wiki, without context, so happy to be shown how this is a misconception.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2020-07-04 at 05:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  12. #25272
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Yep, I agree with this. And it gets to the heart of one of many of the problems the UK faces. Instead of brutalising e.g., the coal miners & their communities in the 80s an alternative tack would have been, you know, just to help them. Targeted support. Thatcher's administration failed in this regard leaving deprived communities in the industrial heartlands to rot. And, yes, Nu Labour did nothing to reverse this trend. Good piece here: https://www.theguardian.com/business...becoming-clear

    Either way, though, the problem at hand is that after 30 years of deindustrialisation, promotion of London-centric policies, etc. it's a bit too fucking late now, and I've got absolutely zero time for niche industry representatives like Bertie (quoted above) telling us we "shouldn't be afraid of tariffs".

    Remember Liam Fox in 2017?

    The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.

    So, was he lying or was he grossly incompetent? Which one?
    It's the combination factor in a way, of a right wing that at the time was huge on the Pro free market and Pro globalisation shafting the working class, then followed by a left wing gov that was also pro globalisation doing nothing to help, that mean the current working man is siding with the anti globalisation movement which is currently dominated by the modern right wing.

    I don't agree with them, but I do fully understand why

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Not disputing most of what you wrote here but German manufacturing is still very strong, no? 47% compared to, as you pointed out, around 10% in USA or UK...

    I'm sure that's down to them having the entire EU by the balls or something, that's certainly what I've heard, but nevertheless to claim Germany has undergone the same decline in manufacturing as USA and UK isn't accurate, I didn't think... Or am I missing something?

    Cherry picking stats, Germany has a bigger economy than India, and a much greater proportion is manufacturing (47% vs 23%). Again, just plucking stuff from wiki, without context, so happy to be shown how this is a misconception.
    Internal market factor, you have to rember Germany untill 1991 Was 2 nations, half of Germany was inside the USSR, which was its self an single market, it left that when the EU became a proper single market facilitating a decent transition, UK industry collapsed really in the 1970s, shortly after the empire properly died in the 1960s, the empire was the primary demand for UK manufactoring, on the global market UK manufacturing didn't compete, and the ie was Stil mostly just trade deals that still left Easter and developing economy's cheaper.

    Though there is also arguments that the reunification of Germany was the final nail in the coffin for British industry.

  13. #25273
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Though there is also arguments that the reunification of Germany was the final nail in the coffin for British industry.
    Fair enough, just caught my eye as I'd always thought Germany had a strong reputation for its manufacturing that's all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  14. #25274
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Fair enough, just caught my eye as I'd always thought Germany had a strong reputation for its manufacturing that's all.
    It has, because of fairly competent manual work-force, and trade unions that work together with companies to stay competitive.

    For similar reasons the UK doesn't have a strong manufacturing sector.

  15. #25275
    Herald of the Titans
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    It's the combination factor in a way, of a right wing that at the time was huge on the Pro free market and Pro globalisation shafting the working class, then followed by a left wing gov that was also pro globalisation doing nothing to help, that mean the current working man is siding with the anti globalisation movement which is currently dominated by the modern right wing.

    I don't agree with them, but I do fully understand why

    - - - Updated - - -



    Internal market factor, you have to rember Germany untill 1991 Was 2 nations, half of Germany was inside the USSR, which was its self an single market, it left that when the EU became a proper single market facilitating a decent transition, UK industry collapsed really in the 1970s, shortly after the empire properly died in the 1960s, the empire was the primary demand for UK manufactoring, on the global market UK manufacturing didn't compete, and the ie was Stil mostly just trade deals that still left Easter and developing economy's cheaper.

    Though there is also arguments that the reunification of Germany was the final nail in the coffin for British industry.
    So, you're saying the UK manufactoring industry wasn't competetive and only worked due to the empire?
    - Lars

  16. #25276
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    So, you're saying the UK manufactoring industry wasn't competetive and only worked due to the empire?
    Yea basically, but im only relly saying what acamedics have said for a while.

  17. #25277
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The EU actually made a significant push against Chinese steel dumping in EU markets and was ready for sanctions only the UK torpedo'd that. So the UK actively stopped the EU from helping British steel exports. There is a reason some of us are actually happy to see the UK go.
    This whole thing with the steel actually showed Dribbles up at one point. He was screeching how the EU was doing nothing to protect UK steel. When told about how Cameron single handily stopped the EU, he flip-flopped cheering how UK steel was worthless and Cameron was right to stop the EU from doing actions to protect UK steel in this very thread.

  18. #25278
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    The Sunny Uplands
    Posts
    3,803
    The mass exodus from the EU to Brexit Britain continues as today... Shell boss Ben van Beurden hints at relocating headquarters to Britain

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...tain-rc3qxhbjw

    After Unilever amongst others how many more EU jewels in the crown can they lose?
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  19. #25279
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The mass exodus from the EU to Brexit Britain continues as today... Shell boss Ben van Beurden hints at relocating headquarters to Britain

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...tain-rc3qxhbjw

    After Unilever amongst others how many more EU jewels in the crown can they lose?
    It's a legal merger, no staff or services are moving. But enjoy.

    Meanwhile, the EU has stopped reporting on companies moving, because the number of companies transitioning people and services are in the hundreds. Injection of new money into the EU economy is counted in two-digit billions.

    In other news, certain people still seem to be mostly full of shit.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  20. #25280
    I am Murloc!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
    Posts
    5,077
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The mass exodus from the EU to Brexit Britain continues as today... Shell boss Ben van Beurden hints at relocating headquarters to Britain

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...tain-rc3qxhbjw

    After Unilever amongst others how many more EU jewels in the crown can they lose?
    I think you should worry that it was "the second vote of confidence"

    Because that phrasing hints at there being only 2, you need more

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •