View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #25301
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The system failed when May invoked Article 50 and almost everyone voted with the Tories even though they had presented no plan for the negotiations whatsoever. That vote showed that parliament was largely ignorant of what these negotiations would call for yet went for them anyway. That's when the system failed. It's just kept failing since then. You can pin the referendum on Cameron but the Parliament had no reason to vote for A50 before a clear plan was presented and should have demanded such instead of overwhelmingly approving May's action over a slim mandate.
    Even if opposition parties voted against A50, it would still have had a majority from the government and passed.

    And we couldn’t have negotiated an exit without the commitment to exit by passing it to find out just how bad what was on offer was.

    Remember the campaign never signalled no-deal. The talk, broadly, was of a Norway or EEA model; much closer than where the Conservatives ultimately decided to unilaterally draw the red lines.

    After May’s failed GE, it should have been a signal for more Parliamentary involvement, not less as was the direction she took, to go with her own party’s rapidly receding desire for the closer ties original mooted.

    This is the problem, it was spearheaded by that fringe movement and government moved away from the centre to those fringes which is not really how it’s supposed to work.

    It’s not Parliament that’s broken, it’s doing exactly as it should in not swinging and capitulating to one extreme fringe idealism.

  2. #25302
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think when Cameron did it, it was just incompetence. Johnson is entirely doing it to built a narrative though. And yeah, the reputation of the UK political system is destroyed.

    When it comes to negotiating trade deals in the future, even beyond reputation, the UK does not have the competencies in its civil service to negotiate multiple trade deals at once. Outside the EU and US, very few trade actors really do. If they try to negotiate with both the US and the EU at once, they will just be stonewalled. And for all their bluster, their industry will roast them over coal if they prioritize anything other than an EU trade deal first and that will take a decade especially considering they have burned all bridges.
    Honestly, I'm not normally for taking advantage of other countries. But I hope the US takes the UK for all its worth, just to make an example of them. I hope we're downright predatory in nature.

    There is has been a certain arrogant presumption, predating Trump, that some kind of magic trade deal was waiting for them with the United States. Since when does the 800lbs gorilla negotiate with the lemur? It was pretty damn patronizing, and Obama was right to declare at the time that the UK would move to the back of the cue. Especially since the trade priorities of the post-Trump era will be to resurrect something between the US and EU and call it TTIP and join our saved seat in TPP, even if its under a new name.

    The entire Brexit campaign is fundamentally about this over-promising bullshit though. You know... "Global Britain"... with a foreign office that is a quarter the size it was in the early 2000s. Yeah. Nice plan folks.

  3. #25303
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Honestly, I'm not normally for taking advantage of other countries. But I hope the US takes the UK for all its worth, just to make an example of them. I hope we're downright predatory in nature.

    There is has been a certain arrogant presumption, predating Trump, that some kind of magic trade deal was waiting for them with the United States. Since when does the 800lbs gorilla negotiate with the lemur? It was pretty damn patronizing, and Obama was right to declare at the time that the UK would move to the back of the cue. Especially since the trade priorities of the post-Trump era will be to resurrect something between the US and EU and call it TTIP and join our saved seat in TPP, even if its under a new name.

    The entire Brexit campaign is fundamentally about this over-promising bullshit though. You know... "Global Britain"... with a foreign office that is a quarter the size it was in the early 2000s. Yeah. Nice plan folks.
    The number one priority of an offense against China should be wide trade cooperation between the US, Japan and the EU, following by significant offers that strangle any effort of China to build a near abroad, mostly by making clear what a disaster Chinese investment has been for Africa and offering alternatives everywhere they show up. This is better done through the EU than through the US because the EU has stronger trade ties. The UK, by placing themselves outside this protective circle, is food for the dogs and will be treated as such by everyone involved.

    Another ridiculous misunderstanding is not just the negotiation between the US and the UK will be fast but rather that it is more straightforward than one between the EU and the UK because there are more actors involved. Someone needs to inform the UK that every last senator has their own interests depending on what their state wants to trade and protect and they will all be trying to get a word in this trade deal; and they are far less transparent and accessible in this than what happens with an EU negotiation were a clean mandate will be created in Parliament and a single team will negotiate with them. Simply put, it takes a much broader team to negotiate with the US than the EU because with the latter at least you negotiate with a single point while with the former, anything goes and you need a broad team ready to act on individual points.

    But ultimately the issue is, they have no team whatsoever. Like most of the EU member states, their trade diplomacy corps are atrophied because they have ceded that competence to the EU decades ago. The UK can at best negotiate a couple of deals at a time and not at all deals of the magnitude required.
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  4. #25304
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    The UK is in no position to dictate terms to the EU. <snip>
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    Brexiteers are the new remainers. To remain outside of the EU.

  5. #25305
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    Man, you also got how the gdpr works wrong ...

  6. #25306
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    First, I think I made a typo. I meant from the UK is in no position to dictate terms to the US in that statement. But it also applies to the EU.

    The EU is playing you. They're job is to make sure Brexit doesn't go easily, to protect their institution from further exits. Which your shitshow has so admirably done. It's remarkable you still don't get their strategy. It's been to fetch the ball for the UK... only to watch them own-goal it. They have gotten out of the UK's way, but RELIED on the UK's political dysfunction to make the case against Brexit and future exits.

    So they'll give you an extension. Money is on, you'll blow past that one too. And they'll give you one after that. You yourself were here saying there would be Hard Brexit some time ago. The first two deadlines. And now we're about to go past the third (I believe, I've lost track).

    So that's where we are. Carry on. But don't think for a second the UK comes out of this looking good.


    And for the record, I'm actually I'm watching Parliament on Youtube right now. I'm getting it straight form the source.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBxnTGmICJ4

    Let's just say, I'll take the US Congress and Senate any day of the week. The only respectable people in the room are the SNP.

    '

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's my favorite part of the UK Parliament show. Where they debate minutiae in the middle of a Category 10 Shitstorm.

    All we need now is a Dennis Skinner cameo so he can White Knight for all 5000 British miners still left.

  7. #25307
    Elemental Lord zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    Sure, buddy. If you want to believe that a deal that effectively separates Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK constitutes the EU jumping at the UK's demand, you do that.

  8. #25308
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    First, I think I made a typo. I meant from the UK is in no position to dictate terms to the US in that statement. But it also applies to the EU.

    The EU is playing you. They're job is to make sure Brexit doesn't go easily, to protect their institution from further exits. Which your shitshow has so admirably done. It's remarkable you still don't get their strategy. It's been to fetch the ball for the UK... only to watch them own-goal it. They have gotten out of the UK's way, but RELIED on the UK's political dysfunction to make the case against Brexit and future exits.

    So they'll give you an extension. Money is on, you'll blow past that one too. And they'll give you one after that. You yourself were here saying there would be Hard Brexit some time ago. The first two deadlines. And now we're about to go past the third (I believe, I've lost track).

    So that's where we are. Carry on. But don't think for a second the UK comes out of this looking good.


    And for the record, I'm actually I'm watching Parliament on Youtube right now. I'm getting it straight form the source.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBxnTGmICJ4

    Let's just say, I'll take the US Congress and Senate any day of the week. The only respectable people in the room are the SNP.

    '

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's my favorite part of the UK Parliament show. Where they debate minutiae in the middle of a Category 10 Shitstorm.

    All we need now is a Dennis Skinner cameo so he can White Knight for all 5000 British miners still left.
    You've got to also admire their voting system. It doesn't get more archaic and slow than that.

  9. #25309
    It's my favorite part of PMQs. The part where the British Prime Minister talks about foreign affairs as if it's still 1992 and the declined UK posses the power to effect an outcome.

    I'm sure Erdogan will certainly take note of the UK's concerns. Oh yes. Absolutely. Yessiree.

    *snort*

    If only there existed some kind of larger transnational entity that the UK could be as part of and act as a soft power force multiplier, and force the Turkish to pay attention.

    Hrmmmmmmmmm

  10. #25310
    Scarab Lord Rochana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    That is some massive cope here.

    Is it cope for the fact that BoJo ended up in the end delivering the exact same as May? Or is it cope for even hard-Brexit tories being okay with giving Northern Ireland and UK's sovereign territory to the EU?

    I told you this years ago already... your politicians will only disappoint you. Even the ones who claim to be on your side...
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  11. #25311
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    Or more accurately, the UK says "we're going to jump off this cliff, please push us" and the EU says "nope, if you want to jump that's up to you, but we aren't pushing you".

    Once again dribbles is trying to convince (himself? others?) that up is down.
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  12. #25312
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    First, I think I made a typo. I meant from the UK is in no position to dictate terms to the US in that statement. But it also applies to the EU.

    The EU is playing you. They're job is to make sure Brexit doesn't go easily, to protect their institution from further exits. Which your shitshow has so admirably done. It's remarkable you still don't get their strategy. It's been to fetch the ball for the UK... only to watch them own-goal it. They have gotten out of the UK's way, but RELIED on the UK's political dysfunction to make the case against Brexit and future exits.
    And the second part is really working.

    Fringe parties that previously wanted to leave the EU in other countries seem less inclined to do that nowadays; as they don't want to be associated with the trainwreck.

  13. #25313
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarkan View Post
    Your two comments are not consistent

    They are either so weak they bowi to the british will or a dictatorship, you cannot have it both ways
    Curiously this is point 8 of Umberto Ecos list of common features of fascism...

    The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”

  14. #25314
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Curiously this is point 8 of Umberto Ecos list of common features of fascism...

    The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
    Wow, it's almost as if Brexit is a manifestation of a movement of far-right nationalism or something lol.
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    I have no obligation to condemn racists. You ideologues on the other hand, are an actual problem.

  15. #25315
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    And yet all evidence shows that the UK demands the EU jump and they ask "how high?"

    Perhaps you don't get much EU/UK news over there, probably due to EU GDPR censorship, it's clear you don't really understand the topic you are posting in.

    I forgive you, being in your Hershey bubble n all.
    And yet somehow the EU is both your whipping boy but also a merciless master so you are (attempting to) leave?
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  16. #25316
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And the second part is really working.

    Fringe parties that previously wanted to leave the EU in other countries seem less inclined to do that nowadays; as they don't want to be associated with the trainwreck.
    To illustrate; back in 2016 French support for remaining in the EU was around 45%. In more recent polls that number is closer to 60%.

    Brexit has done a lot to defang traditional euroscepticism.
    Quote Originally Posted by White America View Post
    I have no obligation to condemn racists. You ideologues on the other hand, are an actual problem.

  17. #25317
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And the second part is really working.

    Fringe parties that previously wanted to leave the EU in other countries seem less inclined to do that nowadays; as they don't want to be associated with the trainwreck.
    And they haven't really done anything besides stating their position within a couple of weeks, sticking to it and letting the UK drown in its own contradictions and ask for extensions to sort their shit out. Which they won't do anytime soon. Their only short term way out is a PM bamboozling everyone into a deal that makes no sense to them or cancelling the whole thing.

  18. #25318
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Presume this is in relation to Gibraltar?
    Nope, just Narnia.

    Gibraltar is its own nation outside the UK and as such remains in the EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    All we need now is a Dennis Skinner cameo so he can White Knight for all 5000 British miners still left.
    Underrated comment. Did anyone think his Black Rod comment this year was without his usual wit? Sounded almost like he was just exhausted by everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    It's my favorite part of PMQs. The part where the British Prime Minister talks about foreign affairs as if it's still 1992 and the declined UK posses the power to effect an outcome.
    Now now, be fair.

    We still dragged America into a war in 1998, was probably our last major effect on foreign affairs.


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  19. #25319
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Nope, just Narnia
    How about Wonderland?

  20. #25320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    We still dragged America into a war in 1998, was probably our last major effect on foreign affairs.
    Nah, we also made America avoid going to war in 2013 (Syria) after parliament decided that we weren't actually going to turn up despite promising we would beforehand :P

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