View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26321
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Look, I won't pretend I understand the Brexit dealings -- in fact I'll admit I don't. But this seems relevant.

    https://apnews.com/0e12e6463481226eaed70022f8967fb7Johnson says UK will quit Brexit talks if no deal by Oct 15

    I...honestly don't know what Johnson expects to accomplish here. Maybe I missed something important, but if I'm reading this correctly, he's about to walk away from the only way to negotiate even a substandard deal for the UK, and instead, leave the UK with nothing but harsh penalties. Does he really think he has the upper hand here, enough to force the entire rest of EU to beg on their knees to come back?
    Nobody cares in the EU, we're busy with Covid. Also:

    https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/st...7Ctwgr%5Etweet
    EU sources say they’re “not bothered” by PM’s new deadline of “Either there’s an EU trade deal on table mid October or there’ll be no deal at all.” Diplomats in Brussels note wryly they’ve seen quite a number of Boris Johnson #Brexit “deadlines” come and go /1
    katya adler
    @BBCkatyaadler
    ·

    Previously the PM had said the outline of a deal *had* to be in place over the summer or... But while EU may be dismissive of new Downing Street deadlines, they are very down about current state of EU-UK trade talks /2
    katya adler
    @BBCkatyaadler
    ·

    Before commenting on leaked government plans for domestic legislation overriding parts of the Brexit divorce deal aka Withdrawal Agreement incl the Irish Protocol, the EU Commission (+Paris, Berlin) are waiting for clarifications from the government /3
    katya adler
    @BBCkatyaadler
    ·

    Speaking this morning on French radio the EU chief negotiator in trade talks with U.K. said « This protocol is a condition for preserving peace and the integrity of the internal market. It is also a precondition for the trust between us » ie UK and EU in current trade talks /4
    He's even worse at this than May was. Which is quite an accomplishment, to be fair!
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  2. #26322
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    He's backed himself into a corner, appearing big is the only thing left he can do. There literally is nothing else. If this wasn't the day of telecommunication, but instead ye olde tymes, he could talk big in england and then beg and grovel in Brussels, to get a good deal, but today he'd just get filmed doing it and lose all creedibility he has left with his own base.
    Like when May gave the EU Parliament a load of assurances, then went home and told the UK Parliament no to worry as the assurances weren't binding, and was absolutely shocked to find out the EU heard what she said and it undermined all she had "achived."

  3. #26323
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Like when May gave the EU Parliament a load of assurances, then went home and told the UK Parliament no to worry as the assurances weren't binding, and was absolutely shocked to find out the EU heard what she said and it undermined all she had "achived."
    Yeah, live TV and public transcripts can be a bitch. It was really amusing to see her flail about as she realised that the guys in the EU don't just read English but also take an interest in what she says in public speeches. She must have been so used to nobody in the UK ever listening to any politician that she just assumed nobody would care... good times!
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  4. #26324
    why are the peasants worried about the price of bread should be the tory party slogan.

    we are seeing globally a class of people who are extracting as much money as they dare out of society so that they can insulate themselves from the problems that they are causing.

    cousins in Armagh are getting a bit serious

  5. #26325
    I haven't opened this thread in months and Dribbles is still arguing nonsense.

    Wow. That's a fascinating degree of dedication or a full a time job. Wonder which?
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2020-09-07 at 05:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  6. #26326
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I haven't opened this thread in months and Dribbles is still arguing nonsense.

    Wow. That's a fascinating degree dedication or a full a time job. Wonder which?
    I smell turnips
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  7. #26327
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I haven't opened this thread in months and Dribbles is still arguing nonsense.

    Wow. That's a fascinating degree of dedication or a full a time job. Wonder which?
    Let's just say I wouldn't drink any tea made by Dribbles. That's my answer to which of the two it is.

  8. #26328
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Look, I won't pretend I understand the Brexit dealings -- in fact I'll admit I don't. But this seems relevant.

    https://apnews.com/0e12e6463481226eaed70022f8967fb7Johnson says UK will quit Brexit talks if no deal by Oct 15



    I...honestly don't know what Johnson expects to accomplish here. Maybe I missed something important, but if I'm reading this correctly, he's about to walk away from the only way to negotiate even a substandard deal for the UK, and instead, leave the UK with nothing but harsh penalties. Does he really think he has the upper hand here, enough to force the entire rest of EU to beg on their knees to come back?
    There are a number of outcomes.

    There is actually a negotiated deal as a usual trade deal. I find it unlikely that will be possible in time.
    The EU actually caves; might happen, and pigs may fly.
    The UK completely caves, but internally it is sold as a win. That might still be possible - I find it doubtful, but Boris can more easily sell it that way if he has been been perceived as tough.
    UK crashes out, because the UK lacked negotiators, time, and an idea what they were negotiating. That seems more likely, and it's better for Boris to sell it as a strategy, and EU not rethinking their position than as the reality.

  9. #26329
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    There are a number of outcomes.

    There is actually a negotiated deal as a usual trade deal. I find it unlikely that will be possible in time.
    The EU actually caves; might happen, and pigs may fly.
    The UK completely caves, but internally it is sold as a win. That might still be possible - I find it doubtful, but Boris can more easily sell it that way if he has been been perceived as tough.
    UK crashes out, because the UK lacked negotiators, time, and an idea what they were negotiating. That seems more likely, and it's better for Boris to sell it as a strategy, and EU not rethinking their position than as the reality.
    The issue is with the Withdrawal Agreement. That one is an international treaty that will have to go into effect. And it is a crappy treaty for everyone involved that could perhaps have been made workable with a decent trade treaty.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  10. #26330
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    UK crashes out, because the UK lacked negotiators, time, and an idea what they were negotiating. That seems more likely, and it's better for Boris to sell it as a strategy, and EU not rethinking their position than as the reality.
    To be fair, at this stage it's not really a negotiation. I mean, sure we can talk about fishing all day long, I've never looked into it, because that bit is actually the least important bit of it all. But the NI border question? Not a negotiation. That's why they're going to ultimately crash out. Because those idiots seem to be under the impression that the can somehow sweet talk the EU into dissolution. And make no mistake, that is what is at the core of this. If the EU sells the integrity of the single market and opens up its external borders to untrustworthy countries like the UK, what's even the point of the single market?
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  11. #26331
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The issue is with the Withdrawal Agreement. That one is an international treaty that will have to go into effect. And it is a crappy treaty for everyone involved that could perhaps have been made workable with a decent trade treaty.
    There is some talk from the UK about leaving that as well, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN25X0X2
    Don't know if that's just talk or if they are that stupid.

    And while the UK is discussing having something like EU-Australia trading, the EU is discussing a trade agreement with Australia.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    To be fair, at this stage it's not really a negotiation. I mean, sure we can talk about fishing all day long, I've never looked into it, because that bit is actually the least important bit of it all. But the NI border question? Not a negotiation.
    The NI border is already part of the withdrawal agreement that the UK signed.

    If the UK hadn't signed that the UK would already have crashed out on January 31st, and if the UK word isn't worth the ink it's written with - then there is no point in negotiating anything.

  12. #26332
    Worst case for the EU at this point would be a no-deal, the UK refusing to implement proper checks in the Irish Sea and the EU being forced to put a border between NI and Ireland.
    And then its a question if the EU or UK gets blamed for that. The EU can easily explain why its the UK's fault (they sold out NI with the Withdraw agreement and failed to implement it) but it can be hard to predict how people will react.

    Or would the EU rather put a border between Ireland and the rest of the EU?
    What would Ireland rather have, a border with NI or a border with the rest of the EU?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #26333
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The NI border is already part of the withdrawal agreement that the UK signed.

    If the UK hadn't signed that the UK would already have crashed out on January 31st, and if the UK word isn't worth the ink it's written with - then there is no point in negotiating anything.
    Er, that topic is not over, mate. Back then the WA could only be waved through the UK parliament, because it postponed technical definitions to this agreement we're talking about right now. If I understand the events correctly, this is what's stalling everything (again).

    So yeah, the NI border is part of the existing WA, but it's far from resolved and could break the neck of an orderly Brexit.

    I mean, this is too easy really, but I'll do it anyway... told you so. No, I'm not smart, but it was really easy to predict.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Worst case for the EU at this point would be a no-deal, the UK refusing to implement proper checks in the Irish Sea and the EU being forced to put a border between NI and Ireland.
    And then its a question if the EU or UK gets blamed for that. The EU can easily explain why its the UK's fault (they sold out NI with the Withdraw agreement and failed to implement it) but it can be hard to predict how people will react.

    Or would the EU rather put a border between Ireland and the rest of the EU?
    What would Ireland rather have, a border with NI or a border with the rest of the EU?
    There is no choice here. There isn't even a conditional "if the UK doesn't do this then the EU does that".

    When they crash out, a border will exist overnight. It's a legal consequence that British people still seem to think doesn't exist. The natural state of two countries next to each other is a border between them to tell where one country (and its rules) ends and another country begins.

    Why do people still talk about this as if it was optional, or someone "wanting" it or part of a menu of different choices to pick depending on your taste? Do people not understand how countries work?

    Also, just to put that idea to rest: Ireland does not want a border between itself and the EU. They are right now gobbling up all the international traffic the UK is losing. They are going to be the new gateway into the EU for any international company that prefers an English speaking environment. Their interest in keeping the GFA up and make their border people happy is much, much less than that of the UK actually facing the danger of resurging terrorism (and of course the closure of the most obvious backdoor in the history of statemanship).
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  14. #26334
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Er, that topic is not over, mate. Back then the WA could only be waved through the UK parliament, because it postponed technical definitions to this agreement we're talking about right now. If I understand the events correctly, this is what's stalling everything (again).

    So yeah, the NI border is part of the existing WA, but it's far from resolved and could break the neck of an orderly Brexit.

    I mean, this is too easy really, but I'll do it anyway... told you so. No, I'm not smart, but it was really easy to predict.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There is no choice here. There isn't even a conditional "if the UK doesn't do this then the EU does that".

    When they crash out, a border will exist overnight. It's a legal consequence that British people still seem to think doesn't exist. The natural state of two countries next to each other is a border between them to tell where one country (and its rules) ends and another country begins.

    Why do people still talk about this as if it was optional, or someone "wanting" it or part of a menu of different choices to pick depending on your taste? Do people not understand how countries work?

    Also, just to put that idea to rest: Ireland does not want a border between itself and the EU. They are right now gobbling up all the international traffic the UK is losing. They are going to be the new gateway into the EU for any international company that prefers an English speaking environment. Their interest in keeping the GFA up and make their border people happy is much, much less than that of the UK actually facing the danger of resurging terrorism (and of course the closure of the most obvious backdoor in the history of statemanship).
    I bring it up because per the withdraw agreement the border is supposed to be in the Irish sea between NI and the rest of the UK, not between Ireland and NI. Crashing out doesn't change that, or it's not supposed to change that. What actually ends up happening is kind of up in the air at this point.

    That is how Boris got his deal, May got stuck with a construction where the UK couldn't actually leave the EU without a full trade agreement because a hard border in Ireland was unacceptable. Boris got around that by moving the border into the EU and effectively placing NI outside the UK.
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2020-09-07 at 10:38 PM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  15. #26335
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I bring it up because per the withdraw agreement the border is supposed to be in the Irish sea between NI and the rest of the UK, not between Ireland and NI. Crashing out doesn't change that, or it's not supposed to change that. What actually ends up happening is kind of up in the air at this point.

    That is how Boris got his deal, May got stuck with a construction where the UK couldn't actually leave the EU without a full trade agreement because a hard border in Ireland was unacceptable. Boris got around that by moving the border into the EU and effectively placing NI outside the UK.
    So, here's the gist of what's in the WA: The UK agreed to a border in the Irish Sea, given that it would be able to implement "technical solutions" to facilitate an almost friction-less crossing of said border. The sour pill is this: If the EU decides that they're full of shit and nothing is happening to protect the external border of the EU, they can unilaterally can the entire thing and put up a hard border on the Island of Ireland to facilitate the integrity of the external border and the single market.

    So, whatever scenario, crash out is gonna be a crash out. I don't see anything changing unless the UK lets their pants down, bends over and hands the EU some lube... or no lube, up to them, to be honest.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  16. #26336
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    The WA is null and void. It was signed on condition at the time of an envisaged future UK/EU Canada style deal which is now not possible. No one should be surprised that a newly sovereign nation is asserting its sovereignty. The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

    Well done Boris.
    Britannia waives the rules!

  17. #26337
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.
    So like crap then.
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  18. #26338
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The WA is null and void. It was signed on condition at the time of an envisaged future UK/EU Canada style deal which is now not possible. No one should be surprised that a newly sovereign nation is asserting its sovereignty. The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

    Well done Boris.
    56% voted against Boris brexit and for the choice to remain either directly or through a second vote.

  19. #26339
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The WA is null and void. It was signed on condition at the time of an envisaged future UK/EU Canada style deal which is now not possible. No one should be surprised that a newly sovereign nation is asserting its sovereignty. The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

    Well done Boris.
    That's a lot of horseshit.

    The withdrawal agreement wasn't signed under any condition that this or that would be signed in the future.

    The treaty specifically says that if not future agreement is to be reached than a No Deal Brexit would be the default outcome. But that doesn't not invalidate any of the previously agreed upon points of the treaty.

    What side of your ass did you pull that piece of bullshit from?

    Furthermore even if Boris actually decided to ignore parts of treaty he would first have to pass it through parliament as the treaty was signed into law by parliament. He could probably pull it off considering the state of the British government, but that would almost instantly be challenged in the courts especially by Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    The treaty is certainly not "null and void" not by the standards of international law nor by the standards of British law.

    Also as a final point, Britain has always been sovereign, all EU member states are sovereign. It's not a new country coming into existence or whatnot...its an existing country that as a sovereign entity went into an international agreement and is now trying to reneg on its obligations and given word, like a failed third world Banana republic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  20. #26340
    When all this is done the British will realise that they are just a couple isles in the Atlantic.

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