View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26761
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Rousing speech by Johnson yesterday. Kudos to him.
    Rousing? Really? It was typical Boris bluster harking back to the 19th century. Trying to sell lamb to the Kiwis. It's like global warming and veganism aren't topical.

    Also, @Teleros - you forget that the Scots, eventually, will do what you Brexiteers did: they'll vote with their hearts. Scotland seceding is as inevitable as night follows day. But it's a price you were willing to pay, I guess?

  2. #26762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    there's a big hole in the EU budget to plug (due to the UK leaving)
    £6.6 billion is a lot of money to you or I, but in perspective to an economic union of 27 countries it's not really that much (especially when you consider we're currently spending £108 billion building a 1990's train network lol).

  3. #26763
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Rousing speech by Johnson yesterday. Kudos to him.

    Sometimes I think you could be stirred by a two year old with Tourette's syndrome who's had Hayek or Reagan speeches playing 24/7 for 2 weeks.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
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  4. #26764
    Epic! Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    you forget that the Scots, eventually, will do what you Brexiteers did: they'll vote with their hearts. Scotland seceding is as inevitable as night follows day. But it's a price you were willing to pay, I guess?
    Perhaps, perhaps not. Besides things like non-Scots voting (which purportedly swung the vote towards the UK in the most recent referendum), a lot will depend on what's in the hearts of Scots. Is it an actual desire for independence, or just a desire to bitch and moan about the English / Westminster / etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    £6.6 billion is a lot of money to you or I, but in perspective to an economic union of 27 countries it's not really that much
    True (it's why I've never been fussed about the £39bn "divorce bill" thing), but as a fraction of the EU budget it's considerable, and from what I've heard, people - particularly the Germans - aren't too happy about having to pay it, even if it is a relatively small amount.
    Still not tired of winning.

  5. #26765
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    But would it?

    Take this Wiki article for example. Maybe you'd prefer to go by population - in which case Scotland gets just 9% of the oil fields. Or per the same article, what of the investments by non-Scots into the field, like all the banks in London etc?

    The fact that you can raise these questions at all means London could raise them in order to get the best deal for the UK in the event of Scottish independence - and arguably should raise them, as the PM in #10 Downing Street would be obliged to seek the best possible deal for the UK, and not Scotland.
    What part of Scotland would be a sovereign nation don't you understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    1. Under EU law, new member states must adopt the Euro.
    2. Scotland would be expected to pay more into the EU budget than it would get out of it.
    3. The EU would likely impose stricter rules on the budget etc than the SNP would like.

    Now, on point 3, sure you can argue that, but as to point #2...

    1. Check out this PDF from earlier in the decade.
    2. From 2017, a £1bn-a-year bill for Scotland.
    3. They've been a net contributor since 2016, but that won't exactly get any easier when there's a big hole in the EU budget to plug (due to the UK leaving) & the Scots can't expect to get a rebate like the one the UK had.

    Oh, and let's not forget the Spanish potentially throwing a wrench in the works. They'd probably let Scotland in, but if they also said "cough up lots of moolah" in order to discourage say Catalonia from seceding & joining like Scotland... well it wouldn't surprise me.

    Point is, an independent Scotland in the EU would be financially worse off than if it remained a part of the UK.
    1. True, but only after they are in line with what is needed to adopt the Euro. So this will either take some time or will make virtually no difference for Scotland.
    2. That depends on their GDP
    3. That depends on a number of things.

    The Spanish have an issue about parts of a country leaving the country not entire countries leaving a collection of countries. It would not give any precedence for Catalonian independence.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  6. #26766
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Perhaps, perhaps not. Besides things like non-Scots voting (which purportedly swung the vote towards the UK in the most recent referendum), a lot will depend on what's in the hearts of Scots. Is it an actual desire for independence, or just a desire to bitch and moan about the English / Westminster / etc?
    The actual sentiment seems to be to do absolutely everything to keep the Tories in power, by not actually voting for independence, but simultaneously scaring unionist voters in England by threatening it. Virtually everything, from keeping the Tories afloat in 2017, to failing to vote for independence yet returning snp majorities to Holyrood and Westminster, back through to collapsing the Labour government in 1979 and enabling 10 years of Thatcherism, suggests they just adore the tories.

    You probably think I'm being provocative or far-fetched. Just watch what they actually do. The only reliable predictor of anything the SNP and the Scots in general have done is that they will prop up the Tories endlessly.
    Last edited by Chancery; 2020-02-05 at 02:39 PM.

  7. #26767
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    What part of Scotland would be a sovereign nation don't you understand?

    1. True, but only after they are in line with what is needed to adopt the Euro. So this will either take some time or will make virtually no difference for Scotland.
    2. That depends on their GDP
    3. That depends on a number of things.

    The Spanish have an issue about parts of a country leaving the country not entire countries leaving a collection of countries. It would not give any precedence for Catalonian independence.
    Yeah it would. Spain is a collection of states itself. Look at this:



    Catalonia is one of the main reasons why the EU set the condition that Scotland needs to leave the UK within the constitutional limits of the UK (ie. have Westminster agree to an independence referendum). Once the Scottish achieve that, the Spanish could continue to deny Catalonia their referendum/independence movements within the limits of the Spanish constitution and all would be sorted.
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  8. #26768
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Yeah it would. Spain is a collection of states itself. Look at this:



    Catalonia is one of the main reasons why the EU set the condition that Scotland needs to leave the UK within the constitutional limits of the UK (ie. have Westminster agree to an independence referendum). Once the Scottish achieve that, the Spanish could continue to deny Catalonia their referendum/independence movements within the limits of the Spanish constitution and all would be sorted.
    Well going by that, every country is a collection of states.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  9. #26769
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Yeah it would. Spain is a collection of states itself.
    Yeah, not sure where you're going here.

    Scotland is a country (some would argue a nation) in a union of countries, not a "state" or a "region".

    The situation in Spain is entirely different as Catalonia is not (yet) a country.

  10. #26770
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Yeah, not sure where you're going here.

    Scotland is a country (some would argue a nation) in a union of countries, not a "state" or a "region".

    The situation in Spain is entirely different as Catalonia is not (yet) a country.
    Essentially if Scotland want to join the EU they'll have to get Westminsters permission to break away from the UK first or the EU will say no, because otherwise they'd be setting the precedent for Catalonia to do the same and Spain really doesn't want that to be on the table.

    Is how I interpreted it at least, Slant will be along I'm sure to clarify.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  11. #26771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Well going by that, every country is a collection of states.
    Spain is a curious case in particular because from its inception it's always tended to be a personal union of crowns (vis a visLos Reyes Catolicos) rather than a formalized federation like the United States, Australia, or Germany.

    But yes, normally recidivism and separatism are pretty badly advised causes being advocated by grifters. In the case of Scotland, however, it may be a question of national survival.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Terf is a derogatory term that's used to silence women.

  12. #26772
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Essentially if Scotland want to join the EU they'll have to get Westminsters permission to break away from the UK first or the EU will say no, because otherwise they'd be setting the precedent for Catalonia to do the same and Spain really doesn't want that to be on the table.

    Is how I interpreted it at least, Slant will be along I'm sure to clarify.
    There is no legal way that Scotland can call a referendum on UK membership without permission from Westminster and there is no incentive for Johnson to grant the needed permission.

    And The Prodi Doctrine states that a breakaway state would have to leave the Union and could then only be let back in if it has gained independence in accordance with constitutional law in the member state it left.
    Last edited by Pann; 2020-02-06 at 09:04 PM.

  13. #26773
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There is no legal way that Scotland can call a referendum on UK membership without permission from Westminster and there is no incentive for Johnson to grant the needed permission.
    That's fine, we get that hypocrisy is one of the pillars of the Westminster system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Terf is a derogatory term that's used to silence women.

  14. #26774
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There is no legal way that Scotland can call a referendum on UK membership without permission from Westminster and there is no incentive for Johnson to grant the needed permission.
    Sure, what I meant was if they "did it anyway" the EU would refuse to let them join.

    I'm not going to describe what I think "did it anyway" would actually look like but if the will to be independant was rampant in Scotland but Westminster was refusing to allow them I don't know what the recourse would then be. And I'm not trying to suggest it is particularly strong either. At this point I should probably stop typing
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  15. #26775
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Sure, what I meant was if they "did it anyway" the EU would refuse to let them join.
    If you want further information on the EU's stance Google 'the Prodi Doctrine.' However even if this did not exist Scotland is a long way from meeting the criteria to be considered for EU membership.

  16. #26776
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If you want further information on the EU's stance Google 'the Prodi Doctrine.' However even if this did not exist Scotland is a long way from meeting the criteria to be considered for EU membership.
    Yawn.

    Where there’s a will there’s a way.

    I know it doesn’t suit your unionist leanings, though.

  17. #26777
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If you want further information on the EU's stance Google 'the Prodi Doctrine.' However even if this did not exist Scotland is a long way from meeting the criteria to be considered for EU membership.
    The EU can always just take the line that the UK doesn't have a constitution, or is silent on the subject, therefore it doesn't apply.

    Which is true. A pile of contradictory laws in a trenchcoat is not a constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Terf is a derogatory term that's used to silence women.

  18. #26778
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Yawn.

    Where there’s a will there’s a way.

    I know it doesn’t suit your unionist leanings, though.
    There really isn't - Westminster will not grant permission for a referendum, the EU will not consider their membership unless they leave the UK as set out by our legal system and even if they did leave and it was all above board they do not meet the EU membership criteria - I believe SNP's own estimates say that it could be up to a decade before they meet the criteria to be considered for membership.

    And where is this will? For the first time (aside from a single instance - I think) since the IndyRef polls are showing a slight lean towards Independence at around 52/48 - hardly conclusive proof that this is what Scotland wants.

    What's with the silly last sentence?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The EU can always just take the line that the UK doesn't have a constitution, or is silent on the subject, therefore it doesn't apply.

    Which is true. A pile of contradictory laws in a trenchcoat is not a constitution.
    They could do but they live in the real world so they will not.

  19. #26779
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    They could do but they live in the real world so they will not.
    Not sure why they're required to obey the strictures of reality when England isn't, but okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Terf is a derogatory term that's used to silence women.

  20. #26780
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Not sure why they're required to obey the strictures of reality when England isn't, but okay.
    As I said they live in the real world so it comes as no surprise that you're not sure about it all.

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