View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26781
    Epic! Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    What part of Scotland would be a sovereign nation don't you understand?
    What part of becoming independent doesn't automatically guarantee you any part of the North Sea oil fields don't you understand? What part of "driving a hard bargain", for that matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    1. True, but only after they are in line with what is needed to adopt the Euro. So this will either take some time or will make virtually no difference for Scotland.
    Might turn some people off it though, no? And require that the Scottish government make spending changes it otherwise wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    2. That depends on their GDP
    Figures from the Scottish parliament, so I assume they've some idea what they're on about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    3. That depends on a number of things.
    No way will the EU give out another rebate. Scotland doesn't have a Maggie Thatcher, or the political / economic clout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    The Spanish have an issue about parts of a country leaving the country not entire countries leaving a collection of countries. It would not give any precedence for Catalonian independence.
    The Catalonians think they're in the same position as Scotland, you realise, and the Spanish government is rightly concerned that others will see it in the same light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    That's fine, we get that hypocrisy is one of the pillars of the Westminster system.
    It's less about hypocrisy than about what's legal. Not to mention everyone knows full well the SNP would call just enough referendums to get the result they want, then declare that the binding one. Now in fairness, had the Remoaners won the Brexit referendum I'm sure us Brexiteers would do exactly the same thing, but hey, that's what you get when you allow subordinate political bodies to hold these referendums :P .

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Which is true. A pile of contradictory laws in a trenchcoat is not a constitution.
    Doesn't need to be written to be a constitution. Israel and New Zealand also get along just fine without a written one.
    Still not tired of winning.

  2. #26782
    It is not only Spain that has an issue with breaking up nations in the EU: Splitting a nation in two gives twice as many votes in the Council for the same number of citizens. Imagine for instance Germany breaking up in to individual states but still voting pretty much the same.

    Also the entire point of the EU is people working closer together, so if you can't get along as part of a nation that shares most of your culture and language how well are you going to do in a union of almost 30 nations that share rather less?

  3. #26783
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's less about hypocrisy than about what's legal. Not to mention everyone knows full well the SNP would call just enough referendums to get the result they want, then declare that the binding one. Now in fairness, had the Remoaners won the Brexit referendum I'm sure us Brexiteers would do exactly the same thing, but hey, that's what you get when you allow subordinate political bodies to hold these referendums :P .
    So, hypocrisy.

    Doesn't need to be written to be a constitution. Israel and New Zealand also get along just fine without a written one.
    Israel is an apartheid state and New Zealand has a population smaller than most American states.

    Hard pass. I'd rather not leave it to chance when a country that was formerly renowned for the quality of its civil service is currently involved in shooting itself in the foot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Terf is a derogatory term that's used to silence women.

  4. #26784
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    However even if this did not exist Scotland is a long way from meeting the criteria to be considered for EU membership.
    You have yet to show that this is actually the case.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    What part of becoming independent doesn't automatically guarantee you any part of the North Sea oil fields don't you understand? What part of "driving a hard bargain", for that matter?
    Yeah, it does, it then is their territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Might turn some people off it though, no? And require that the Scottish government make spending changes it otherwise wouldn't.
    Takes years to implement so I doubt it will turn people off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Figures from the Scottish parliament, so I assume they've some idea what they're on about.
    yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    No way will the EU give out another rebate. Scotland doesn't have a Maggie Thatcher, or the political / economic clout.
    I do understand that you still don't get what the EU is about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    The Catalonians think they're in the same position as Scotland, you realise, and the Spanish government is rightly concerned that others will see it in the same light.
    Yep, the catalonians think a bunch of stuff that makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  5. #26785
    So it seems that now that Brexit is done, EU is finally going to start playing dirty.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-finance-rules
    The City is banking on equivalences to maintain its trading position. The UK also lobbied succesfully for certain changes to the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive when it was changed during the financial crisis. Now that it is out, the EU seems ready to undo those changes. More importantly, they may do so piecemail, making equivalencies a running target for the City.

    There ain't going to be any good will going forward from EITHER side. We are now officially competitors.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  6. #26786
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So it seems that now that Brexit is done, EU is finally going to start playing dirty.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-finance-rules
    The City is banking on equivalences to maintain its trading position. The UK also lobbied succesfully for certain changes to the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive when it was changed during the financial crisis. Now that it is out, the EU seems ready to undo those changes. More importantly, they may do so piecemail, making equivalencies a running target for the City.

    There ain't going to be any good will going forward from EITHER side. We are now officially competitors.
    Cue Cell Block Tango.

  7. #26787
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Cue Cell Block Tango.
    Uh uh, not guilty!
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  8. #26788
    Epic! Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    So, hypocrisy.
    Well yes, but that's politics for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Israel is an apartheid state and New Zealand has a population smaller than most American states.
    Irrelevant. They work.

    = = =

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Yeah, it does, it then is their territory.
    You should try reading the links I give sometimes. TL;DR is that Scotland is not a sovereign country (just like England, Wales, and Northern Ireland), it's a part of the UK.

    "Given that Scotland is not a sovereign state, it has no effective maritime boundaries; and any claims Scotland may assert are subsumed as part of claims made by the United Kingdom. However, due to the existence of two separate legal systems in Great Britain — that of Scots law pertaining to Scotland and English law pertaining to England and Wales — constitutional law in the United Kingdom has provided for the division of the UK sector of the North Sea into specific Scottish and English components. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots law[6] meaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction. In addition, section 126 of the Scotland Act 1998 defines Scottish waters as the internal waters and territorial sea of the United Kingdom as are adjacent to Scotland. This has been subsequently amended by the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order 1999 which redefined the extent of Scottish waters and Scottish fishery limits."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Takes years to implement so I doubt it will turn people off.
    "We'd like to implement our lavish education spending plans but because of EU / Euro membership criteria we can't."

    But no, that definitely won't turn a land of people who love government largesse off, no sirree !

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Yep, the catalonians think a bunch of stuff that makes no sense.
    Again, it's also about what other people (ie, non-Catalonians & non-Spanish) think. What happens if, for the sake of argument, the French or German voters are persuaded that Catalonia = Scotland as far as independence goes? And then pressure their governments over this? Or what if the USA does the same? Etc.
    Still not tired of winning.

  9. #26789
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Well yes, but that's politics for you.
    Yes. English politics.

    Irrelevant. They work.
    Apartheid states are never functional, and there is a known relationship between population size and the effectiveness of delegate model democratic governments such as Westminster. Economy of scale doesn't apply to democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Terf is a derogatory term that's used to silence women.

  10. #26790
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    You should try reading the links I give sometimes. TL;DR is that Scotland is not a sovereign country (just like England, Wales, and Northern Ireland), it's a part of the UK.

    "Given that Scotland is not a sovereign state, it has no effective maritime boundaries; and any claims Scotland may assert are subsumed as part of claims made by the United Kingdom. However, due to the existence of two separate legal systems in Great Britain — that of Scots law pertaining to Scotland and English law pertaining to England and Wales — constitutional law in the United Kingdom has provided for the division of the UK sector of the North Sea into specific Scottish and English components. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots law[6] meaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction. In addition, section 126 of the Scotland Act 1998 defines Scottish waters as the internal waters and territorial sea of the United Kingdom as are adjacent to Scotland. This has been subsequently amended by the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order 1999 which redefined the extent of Scottish waters and Scottish fishery limits."
    Scotland upon leaving would become a sovereign country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    "We'd like to implement our lavish education spending plans but because of EU / Euro membership criteria we can't."

    But no, that definitely won't turn a land of people who love government largesse off, no sirree !
    Yeah, again, it takes years to implement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Again, it's also about what other people (ie, non-Catalonians & non-Spanish) think. What happens if, for the sake of argument, the French or German voters are persuaded that Catalonia = Scotland as far as independence goes? And then pressure their governments over this? Or what if the USA does the same? Etc.
    The USA? WHAT?!
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  11. #26791
    A well-written blog here detailing how Johnson & co. are continuing to misrepresent & deceive in an attempt to stimulate jingoism via the right wing press:

    https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot...sfx8XSHw6ZXjWc

    The first and most important thing that would have to change is for Boris Johnson, his government, and all the Brexiter commentators and advisers to stop lying. If they are serious about Brexit they need to face up to the realities of what it entails and that means telling the truth to themselves and others.

    To take an example from this week. Hardly had the celebrations ended than Johnson was reported to be “infuriated” that the EU had “reneged” on its commitments to strike a ‘Canada- style’ free trade deal by now insisting on ‘Level Playing Field’ (LPF) commitments in terms of state aid, workers’ rights, environmental standards and so on. But that this was the EU’s position has been clear for at least a year and, more importantly, was set out in the text of the Political Declaration (paragraph 77) that Johnson himself signed. It’s this kind of constant gaslighting that would need to stop.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    You should try reading the links I give sometimes. TL;DR is that Scotland is not a sovereign country (just like England, Wales, and Northern Ireland), it's a part of the UK.

    "Given that Scotland is not a sovereign state, it has no effective maritime boundaries; and any claims Scotland may assert are subsumed as part of claims made by the United Kingdom. However, due to the existence of two separate legal systems in Great Britain — that of Scots law pertaining to Scotland and English law pertaining to England and Wales — constitutional law in the United Kingdom has provided for the division of the UK sector of the North Sea into specific Scottish and English components. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots law[6] meaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction. In addition, section 126 of the Scotland Act 1998 defines Scottish waters as the internal waters and territorial sea of the United Kingdom as are adjacent to Scotland. This has been subsequently amended by the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order 1999 which redefined the extent of Scottish waters and Scottish fishery limits."
    It's as if Scottish nationalism doesn't exist.

    Seriously - I am going to laugh in your face when Scotland, eventually, secedes. If Ireland reunifies, that's a bonus.

    It'll just be you & your ilk left waving your shitty little St George's flags.

    And, just so we're clear, this is the economic cost of Brexit so far:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...it-for-the-u-k

    $170bn and counting.

    Brexit dividend? No - Brexiteer lies.

    You lot lied to achieve your aims, you did from the start and you continue to do so now.

  12. #26792
    Epic! Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Scotland upon leaving would become a sovereign country.
    Yes, but right now "their" North Sea waters are UK waters. Hence they can't just expect to gain independence and gain all the North Sea territory they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    The USA? WHAT?!
    Because MURRICA supports the right of self-determination blah blah blah rhubarb?

    = = =

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    A well-written blog here detailing how Johnson & co. are continuing to misrepresent & deceive in an attempt to stimulate jingoism via the right wing press
    Eh, whatever. At least half of the negotiations seen in the press are kabuki theatre and PR (from both sides), and have been since about 30 seconds after the referendum was announced. Of course BoJo is "infuriated" by this and that and the other, and of course the EU is angry because of something else. Gotta play up the drama to sell more copy / get more clicks / advance your paper's agenda / whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    It's as if Scottish nationalism doesn't exist.
    It does exist, but what has that got to do with the legal position of Scotland vis-a-vis control over UK waters?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    And, just so we're clear, this is the economic cost of Brexit so far:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...it-for-the-u-k

    $170bn and counting.
    Is it true though? God only knows - literally, because this kind of what-if scenario is a joke in economics. Hell, even calculating GDP is a joke - the ~2001-2003 US recession no longer exists thanks to revisions in the GDP data for the period.

    Anyway, let's assume Bloomberg know what they're talking about (!), and look at the article, shall we? Well, first off, the holy GDP number has gotten bigger, so the economy has continued to grow despite Brexit. So, the cost has been a difference between forecast figures and the latest, still-subject-to-massive-revision GDP figures.

    Second, the reason is due to "uncertainty", which then begs the question of what might cause the uncertainty? Answer: Treasonous May & the Remoaner Parliament repeatedly trying to sabotage Brexit. Thus, it's entirely reasonable under the circumstances to suppose that an actual pro-Brexit government would have had much less uncertainty, and thus a much lower negative impact on the economy. You disagree? That's fine - we're talking make-believe with make-believe GDP numbers anyway, so whatever.

    Third, what assumptions did the author include in his model? I dunno, because it's behind a paywall and all that fun stuff. Still, consider all the end-of-the-world scenarios from the Project Fear types - point is, you can pull numbers out of your posterior all day long for these exercises.

    Fourth, and finally, IDGAF. GDP is a nonsense number, and there are far, far more important things than chasing GDP. Want to massively increase GDP as the UK? Slap massive tariffs on all imports, effective immediately. Per the maths (C+I+G+X-M), given that the UK imports much more than it exports, GDP will increase. Or if you don't like that, just have the government borrow £2tn a year and blow it on blackjack and hookers for everyone. That's a GDP increase folks!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    You lot lied to achieve your aims, you did from the start and you continue to do so now.
    Speak for yourself. My position has always been national sovereignty uber alles, even if it meant a bit of economic pain (not that I think we'll experience much, if any). I said as much both during the referendum and after.
    Still not tired of winning.

  13. #26793
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Yes, but right now "their" North Sea waters are UK waters. Hence they can't just expect to gain independence and gain all the North Sea territory they want.
    If they gain independence they also gain their share of north sea territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Because MURRICA supports the right of self-determination blah blah blah rhubarb?
    Are you having a stroke?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  14. #26794
    Epic! Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    If they gain independence they also gain their share of north sea territory.
    What is "their" share though? That's my whole point. Scotland currently has no share of the North Sea - the UK does, and the UK has chosen to divide its share of the North Sea between two legal systems. If Scotland becomes independent, then there's no guarantee whatsoever that the division of the North Sea between the UK & Scotland will be along the lines presently used within UK waters.
    Still not tired of winning.

  15. #26795
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    What is "their" share though? That's my whole point. Scotland currently has no share of the North Sea - the UK does, and the UK has chosen to divide its share of the North Sea between two legal systems. If Scotland becomes independent, then there's no guarantee whatsoever that the division of the North Sea between the UK & Scotland will be along the lines presently used within UK waters.
    Current maritime convention for exclusive economic zones is at most 200 nautical miles from the shore of a country.

    That puts portions of the north sea closer to Scotland than the rest of the UK under Scotland, if they were to become a sovereign state.

  16. #26796
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So it seems that now that Brexit is done, EU is finally going to start playing dirty.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-finance-rules
    The City is banking on equivalences to maintain its trading position. The UK also lobbied succesfully for certain changes to the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive when it was changed during the financial crisis. Now that it is out, the EU seems ready to undo those changes. More importantly, they may do so piecemail, making equivalencies a running target for the City.

    There ain't going to be any good will going forward from EITHER side. We are now officially competitors.
    Hmm... they also tried the trick of stock exchange equivalence to push our politics without any regard to our democratic process...

    ...long story short it did not work, our stock exchange is more dynamic than ever, and now our forever pro-european left will never recede on barriers against wage-dumping, while the eurosceptic conservatives are pushing for us to leave Schengen altogether.

    Currently they are trying to use medical equipment certification as a bargaining chip (we have a very strong biotech sector, and the EU is our 1st market).
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  17. #26797
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    New Zealand has a population smaller than most American states.
    Also, we don't get along just fine... We have A LOT of problems caused by a lack of constitution - Like no clear owners of any land.
    FORTNITE
    Fite me! ^..^

  18. #26798
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Speak for yourself. My position has always been national sovereignty uber alles, even if it meant a bit of economic pain (not that I think we'll experience much, if any). I said as much both during the referendum and after.
    It is not "national" sovereignty. I am English. This is nothing to do with me or most other ordinary people. I am not being represented.

    You speak for a small unrepresentative elite of public schoolboys that, quite literally, despise most of the population. If you actually knew any of those people, which you clearly don't, you'd understand that they see things exclusively in terms of class, much more so than even the most dogmatic Marxist. They do however recognize that they can simply claim to represent "the British" or "the (white) working class" and co-opt the weak-minded and ignorant to vote against their own interest.

    The truth is the EU, revolting bureaucratic neo-liberal institution that it is, did a far better job of securing the rights and affluence of the British people than Westminster has ever done.

    Additionally the current government is clearly selling out the country to non-eu foreign interests. Currently they are deciding whether to sell out the communications infrastructure to the Chinese or bow down to the Americans who don't like that idea. Any notion of "national sovereignty" is frankly comically ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post



    Fourth, and finally, IDGAF. GDP is a nonsense number
    Yes everyone knows. You still have to come up with an alternative metric where things are supposedly better under Brexit (hint: there aren't any).

    To state the blindingly obvious creating a massive amount of unnecessary paperwork and delay for everyone has no upside for any one, except possibly for lawyers, accountants and organized crime.

  19. #26799
    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopla View Post
    It is not "national" sovereignty. I am English. This is nothing to do with me or most other ordinary people. I am not being represented.

    You speak for a small unrepresentative elite of public schoolboys that, quite literally, despise most of the population. If you actually knew any of those people, which you clearly don't, you'd understand that they see things exclusively in terms of class, much more so than even the most dogmatic Marxist. They do however recognize that they can simply claim to represent "the British" or "the (white) working class" and co-opt the weak-minded and ignorant to vote against their own interest.

    The truth is the EU, revolting bureaucratic neo-liberal institution that it is, did a far better job of securing the rights and affluence of the British people than Westminster has ever done.
    Agreed. I strongly oppose the modern trend of neo-liberalism, that dying ideology, but at least under the EU there was a strong protection of freedom and civil rights. There were countless occasions during which British citizens could sue their local government before the EU court and the EU court more than often sided with the common man. Most likely this is part of why some of the Tories are so anti-EU, they can abuse the british people unopposedly now without having to worry about the EU court slapping them on their fingers for it.

    Yes everyone knows. You still have to come up with an alternative metric where things are supposedly better under Brexit (hint: there aren't any).
    They should just measure the average amount of disposable income for the lowest 50% of earners instead. With an incremental rating the higher it is for every lower 10%.

    Right now GDP only directly benefits the top 10 to 1%, so it's completely irrelevant to the common people.

  20. #26800
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    What is "their" share though? That's my whole point. Scotland currently has no share of the North Sea - the UK does, and the UK has chosen to divide its share of the North Sea between two legal systems. If Scotland becomes independent, then there's no guarantee whatsoever that the division of the North Sea between the UK & Scotland will be along the lines presently used within UK waters.
    You not being familiar with anything is not my problem. Read up a bit on it. The UK can't just keep sovereignty upon stuff that then is part of another country. Their legal system would cease to apply to Scotland, quite obviously as Scotland would not be under its jurisdiction anymore.

    For someone who writes stuff like "My position has always been national sovereignty uber alles" you seem to care little for a countries sovereignty.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

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