View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26781
    Pandaren Monk Teleros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,786
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Which means WTO rules increase the cost of our exports, and suddenly people decide they don't want to buy X from the UK anymore now it's more expensive than from a different country in the EU.
    Sometimes, sure. On the other hand, if I really want my cheddar or Yorkshire tea or whatever it is, I can always pay more. There are plenty of reasons for continuing to buy from a country even after tariffs go up against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    the 2016 Brexit referendum has now invalidated the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum
    Bwahahahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    No, it is not unless you want to tell us that the UK suddenly wants to change its habits and stops importing stuff they want.
    We did when we JOINED the EU. "Oh no, you can keep having New Zealand lamb" (etc etc etc) they lied. We cut ourselves off from a huge amount of trade with the Commonwealth when we joined the EU, now we can take it up again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    The problem with being an island in the north atlantic ocean just off the coast of Europe is that pretty much everything apart from Europe is fucking far away.
    It worked in the age of sail, it'll work in the age of container ships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    That means you are going to have a harder time selling, aka losing customers.
    Losing customers =/= losing half of your customers. See the point I was originally responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Exactly, valid then, not now, ergo a new Scottish referendum is in place.
    As I asked Mayhem, are you saying the Scots are too stupid to realise it was a risk if they voted to remain in the UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    The US has several trade deals in place, as do Japan and China.
    Are you looking at the same map as I am? Because all I'm seeing is "potential" trade agreements, as opposed to actual ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    The UK does not. Somehow you'll try to get trade deals in place with the EU, Japan, Australia and the US before 2021
    Sounds like some solid, ambitious targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    I'd love to see how you come to that conclusion other than "cus I say".
    https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7851

    £66bn trade deficit with the EU. As to individual companies caring more for the bottom line than a UK-vs-EU trade war, do you have any evidence to suggest that said companies would not be rationally self-interested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    the EU is an economic powerhouse, the UK is not a comparison whatsoever, the US and China is.
    The EU is a paper tiger because of all the internal divisions. Yes, the GDP figures are impressive - up there with the USA & China - but it's really not that simple. France is struggling with the yellow vests protests (still!), Germany is tottering, the southern European countries are all too often in dire straits (eg 14% overall unemployment in Spain, or ~32% for youth unemployment), there's issues over things like oil/gas supplies from Russia, the Visegrad countries are increasingly trying to do their own thing due to Merkel's invaders, Salvini is poised to take over in Italy (and he's not exactly a fan of things like the Euro)... I mean, it's not great once you get beyond the surface layer. Remember too, that unlike the USA, China, or Japan, the EU is not an even vaguely homogeneous polity, so there are going to be plenty of divisions for the UK to exploit.

    Finally, there's the issue of specialisation. Yeah, sure, the EU still has something like 6 times the GDP of the UK... but places like Frankfurt or Paris are just laughable competitors to the financial colossus of London, and that won't change for years at best. Then there's the UK's North Sea oil & gas (talk about a strategic good...), and medicines. You don't think these sectors are going to be of some concern to the EU? Remember too that non-European financial services for example aren't nearly as practical as London because of little things like time zone differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    This is a map of EU trade agreements. Everyone with a colour has some sort of agreement going, the only guys doing WTO are the ones in grey
    Yellow =/= trade agreement in place, just being negotiated, so for WTO terms applying to trade, yellow = grey. Also, there's a divergence between the official EU map I showed (eg trade agreement with Japan not yet implemented) and yours (where it is implemented).
    Still not tired of winning.

  2. #26782
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    oh Dribbles, you might be wrong, Netherlands always have been eurosceptic to a certain point, you've seen how many times they voted against further intregration? That isnt Eurochumness, thats Euro-sceptic.
    I'm terrible at understanding, granted, but isn't that what he just said. They were Eurosceptic but could leave all the stigma safely to the UK veto...
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  3. #26783
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    We did when we JOINED the EU. "Oh no, you can keep having New Zealand lamb" (etc etc etc) they lied. We cut ourselves off from a huge amount of trade with the Commonwealth when we joined the EU, now we can take it up again.
    What are you talking about? In 2015 the UK imported 70% of lamb from New Zealand. You did not cut yourself off from anything, you bumbling buffoon don't know anything about your trading history. Fun fact, 95% of UK lamb are exported to the EU, well guess what you are proposing to lose right about now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It worked in the age of sail, it'll work in the age of container ships.
    Do you know what price increase means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Losing customers =/= losing half of your customers. See the point I was originally responding to.
    You were the one talking about losing customers, I just explained to you the shares and its impact you seemed to not be able to grasp, for some reason 8% is larger than 45% in your mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  4. #26784
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The Netherlands have been pretending to be good Eurochums for ages whilst hiding behind the now non existent UK veto. Without the UK veto backing these smaller nations interests, orphans I believe the EU unofficially call them now their UK Daddy has gone, they have no chance on their own of moderating the French/German power struggle for overall control of the EU and ever closer union.



    In case you hadn't noticed the EU's share of world GDP fell off a cliff just a week ago. The UK is interested in the growth hungry 83% of global trade, not the stagnant ever decreasing EU minority of 17%. To describe the EU as an economic powerhouse now is laughable.

    In case you hadnt noticed, the UK only left on paper, you're practicly still in the union. But i love that you use a site titled "Pro-Brexit facts, that's hilarious!
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    £66bn trade deficit with the EU. As to individual companies caring more for the bottom line than a UK-vs-EU trade war, do you have any evidence to suggest that said companies would not be rationally self-interested?
    Bravo for taking the Trump route on evaluating economies. The EU is a paper tiger because of internal division? Countries disagree, it's not new. Heck the US and China has internal division, you're not viewing them as paper tigers.

    But thanks for proving that your arguments arent arguments.

  5. #26785
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Do you know what price increase means?
    Ever since the age of sail, shipping stuff accross oceans has been cheaper than carting it a few tens of km trough land.

    In this age of container ships and trailer trucks this hasn't changed. Although the price of land tranaportation was decreased by the advent of the railroad, freight trains are a dying breed on the Old Continent.

    Edit : hence me being able to buy fruits from as far as Peru, New Zeland and South Africa cheaper than EU produce...
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2020-02-10 at 08:16 PM.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  6. #26786
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You really have to hope, in a way akin to self harm and wish that Brexit messes the UK up so badly we crash and burn and are forced to go begging to the EU to be let back in.
    Dude…

    There is no longer “we”, it’s “you” and “us”.

    That is the tack I’ll be taking in all manner of walks of life. Yes, I wish harm upon the stupid / or not so stupid fuckers who have brought this to bear. Own it.

    Eire voting Sinn Fein in today ushers in the break up of the Union.

    Bwahahahaha

  7. #26787
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Dude…

    There is no longer “we”, it’s “you” and “us”.

    That is the tack I’ll be taking in all manner of walks of life. Yes, I wish harm upon the stupid / or not so stupid fuckers who have brought this to bear. Own it.

    Eire voting Sinn Fein in today ushers in the break up of the Union.

    Bwahahahaha
    Still no guarantee with Sinn Fein since even though they are the largest the two other big ones could band together with Greens and Labour to sneak over the line. Coalitions and all. (which is still prefereable to FPTP)

  8. #26788
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Still no guarantee with Sinn Fein since even though they are the largest the two other big ones could band together with Greens and Labour to sneak over the line. Coalitions and all. (which is still prefereable to FPTP)
    Yep, I know.

    But it's a shift in the popular vote.

    There may be no border poll in the next five years, but there sure as hell will be one within in the next decade.

  9. #26789
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brexitia
    Posts
    2,618
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Yep, I know.

    But it's a shift in the popular vote.

    There may be no border poll in the next five years, but there sure as hell will be one within in the next decade.
    You remainers are so confused. How does the break up of the Union help your cause? England on its own will never in your lifetime see another Labour government in Westminster.

    And as for your bwahhhaaaha over the Sinn Fein result in Ireland, with the same policies as Corbyn on steroids, well that's a win for Boris. When they start taxing the likes of Amazon, Google, Intel currently in Dublin until the pips squeak, where do you think they will go? England with the newly created Singapore upon Thames just across the water from Europe will be the winner.

    We both are Englanders aren't we Nigel? I'm with you that the Sinn Fein result is a good one for us...

    We both can bwahahahaaa as one. Who'd have thought the Irish would unite us?

  10. #26790
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Ever since the age of sail, shipping stuff accross oceans has been cheaper than carting it a few tens of km trough land.

    In this age of container ships and trailer trucks this hasn't changed. Although the price of land tranaportation was decreased by the advent of the railroad, freight trains are a dying breed on the Old Continent.

    Edit : hence me being able to buy fruits from as far as Peru, New Zeland and South Africa cheaper than EU produce...
    Oh great, another one who thoroughly researched the stuff he talks about.

    Currently when something ships to the EU it ships to one of several large ports and is then redistributed. What keeps costs down is, everything is cleared already because it is irrelevant where within the EU the cargo goes. Not anymore with the UK. So either it will ship directly to the UK which will increase costs because obviously not the same amount will be needed compared to the whole of the EU or it will be cleared the same way as currently but with more paperwork in between which in turn increases cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  11. #26791
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Oh great, another one who thoroughly researched the stuff he talks about.

    Currently when something ships to the EU it ships to one of several large ports and is then redistributed. What keeps costs down is, everything is cleared already because it is irrelevant where within the EU the cargo goes. Not anymore with the UK. So either it will ship directly to the UK which will increase costs because obviously not the same amount will be needed compared to the whole of the EU or it will be cleared the same way as currently but with more paperwork in between which in turn increases cost.
    First, I am not even living in the EU, nor the UK, and we slap tariffs on both EU and non EU products anyway, depending on our own trade agreements, and freely slap taxes on them on our own, notably a low, EU-incompatible VAT rate of 7.7%, which make most goods imported from far away cheaper than in neighboring EU countries, despite being a landlocked country.

    Second: ever heard of free ports, of which there are a great number across the EU?

    Third, you are blatantly ignoring several specificities the UK:
    -the UK, is, well, surrounded by the sea, which makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex, and costly than on the mainland
    -in turn, being an island, the UK has always been well endowed with harbors
    -tonnage from major UK harbors is like an order of magnitude higher than Eurotunnel traffic
    -each countries can have differing requirements in matter of imported goods : we don't eat the same stuff, we don't wear the same clothes, we don't have the same electric plugs, we don't drive on the same side of the road, etc...
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  12. #26792
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Quarantine and Chill
    Posts
    47,059
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You remainers are so confused. How does the break up of the Union help your cause? England on its own will never in your lifetime see another Labour government in Westminster.
    However shall we compete with permanent Tory austerity. /s

    And as for your bwahhhaaaha over the Sinn Fein result in Ireland, with the same policies as Corbyn on steroids, well that's a win for Boris. When they start taxing the likes of Amazon, Google, Intel currently in Dublin until the pips squeak, where do you think they will go? England with the newly created Singapore upon Thames just across the water from Europe will be the winner.
    Ah yes, because as we all know England is just a hair's breadth from being exactly like Singapore what with all its austerity induced poverty, ramshackle political system, complete lack of any significant economic relevance besides being a big finance center (for now), etc.

    We both can bwahahahaaa as one. Who'd have thought the Irish would unite us?
    They've done a pretty good job of being a punching bag whenever y'all get the itch to do a colonialism to deflect from domestic problems, so why's this surprising?

    I honestly can't recall a period in history where self proclaimed nationalists were so gleeful about the breakup of their empire.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  13. #26793
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    snip
    its about capacity and efficiency. physical limits with additional checks and paperwok.

    tans are about to gut thier domestic competitiveness

  14. #26794
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    its about capacity and efficiency. physical limits with additional checks and paperwok.

    tans are about to gut thier domestic competitiveness
    Except there is a whole wide world beside the EU and the UK.

    Yes the creation of the EU has allowed to bolster trade and circulation of people between its members, but at the same time it has erected additional barriers towards the rest of the world.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  15. #26795
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Quarantine and Chill
    Posts
    47,059
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Except there is a whole wide world beside the EU and the UK.

    Yes the creation of the EU has allowed to bolster trade and circulation of people between its members, but at the same time it has erected additional barriers towards the rest of the world.
    Really? Cause I'm pretty sure Slant already posted about the EU's highly extensive network of trade deals which it has managed to negotiate despite being a far from unified bloc.

    The barriers it's erected have been entirely for the benefit of local industries in the EU. You can thank them for the fact that every dairy in Heibei province isn't churning out Gruyere.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  16. #26796
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Really? Cause I'm pretty sure Slant already posted about the EU's highly extensive network of trade deals which it has managed to negotiate despite being a far from unified bloc.

    The barriers it's erected have been entirely for the benefit of local industries in the EU. You can thank them for the fact that every dairy in Heibei province isn't churning out Gruyere.
    Like how well TTIP or even CETA are progressing and being locally received?

    Such good trade agreements that now instead they are churning the likes of high-tech trains, cars and the likes from appropriated tech?

    Edit : not to mention that the Chinese public would rather buy dairy from the EU than the domestic, melamin-laced variations.
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2020-02-11 at 12:36 PM.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  17. #26797
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    First, I am not even living in the EU, nor the UK, and we slap tariffs on both EU and non EU products anyway, depending on our own trade agreements, and freely slap taxes on them on our own, notably a low, EU-incompatible VAT rate of 7.7%, which make most goods imported from far away cheaper than in neighboring EU countries, despite being a landlocked country.

    Second: ever heard of free ports, of which there are a great number across the EU?

    Third, you are blatantly ignoring several specificities the UK:
    -the UK, is, well, surrounded by the sea, which makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex, and costly than on the mainland
    -in turn, being an island, the UK has always been well endowed with harbors
    -tonnage from major UK harbors is like an order of magnitude higher than Eurotunnel traffic
    -each countries can have differing requirements in matter of imported goods : we don't eat the same stuff, we don't wear the same clothes, we don't have the same electric plugs, we don't drive on the same side of the road, etc...
    Exactly, according to trade agreements. Apparently that didn't ring a bell.

    So these free ports are already established and well working. What incentive have companies to change service?

    Wait, so you're telling me being surrounded by the sea makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex and costly? Wasn't that what I was saying the whole time? Now follow me here, do you think it's more costly and complex if the continent in question is even farther away?

    The UK is so well endowed with harbors that out of the 10 busiest harbors in the EU it has one in the top 10 on rank 7. That is truly amazing.

    Yep, it is, what is your point? I already explained to you what I was talking about.

    And I use different electric plugs and you know what, manufacturers just include different connectors and are done with it, I have plugs that are designed for British sockets with half my electrics for spare.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  18. #26798
    We seem to be doing quite well at present, huh.

    UK economy saw zero growth at the end of 2019
    The UK economy saw no growth in the final three months of 2019, as manufacturing contracted for the third quarter in a row and the service sector slowed around the time of the election.

  19. #26799
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Like how well TTIP or even CETA are progressing and being locally received?
    I uhm, TTIP died exactly because the EU protected its businesses against the US. What's your point?

    Are you arguing that not selling out is equal to erecting additional barriers?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  20. #26800
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Like how well TTIP or even CETA are progressing and being locally received?

    Such good trade agreements that now instead they are churning the likes of high-tech trains, cars and the likes from appropriated tech?

    Edit : not to mention that the Chinese public would rather buy dairy from the EU than the domestic, melamin-laced variations.
    TTIP is pretty much dead, because the EU correctly put a stop to it due to outrageous demands from the US (private companies being able to sue European nations or even the EU itself before a US civil court, for example). See, that's what the EU is there for, they are pros and they don't agree to every bullshit because the EU can afford to say no and just walk away. There's an entire fucking planet that wants to deal with us.

    CETA and the Belgian resistance demonstrates democracy at work in the EU. Even if you're some tiny little minority region, yes, you can absolutely block an entire deal between the EU and Canada. That is by design and most of us in the EU would rather have a deal blocked than abandon proper democratic structures and giving even the little man a proper voice in the proceedings.

    No idea what you're talking about... churning who exactly? And what does churning mean in this context?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Except there is a whole wide world beside the EU and the UK.

    Yes the creation of the EU has allowed to bolster trade and circulation of people between its members, but at the same time it has erected additional barriers towards the rest of the world.
    Bullshit. The EU has a big network of trade deals that have the sole aim to reduce barriers. The trade deals of the EU customarily REDUCE prices on both sides and make trade easier. Of course the EU is protecting its markets. From bullshit zero quality rip offs, dangerous and unsafe goods, food sources that provide a danger to our health. People like you seem to have no clue how the world works. They go "Oh, so the EU introduced custom tariffs up to 10%"

    Well, yeah. But the WTO term was more like 20%. That is the real world. WTO terms are shit. They are REALLY bad. People have got to look at the shit and realise just how bad it is before they come here and whinge about the EU introducing negotiated customs that are lower than WTO terms! And the biggest caveat is that the EU insists on maintaining EU regulations. Because, let's be honest, most places don't have this extensive set of customer protection and technical rules and their stuff would fuck up our standard of living if we just let them swamp our continent.

    Don't like it? Zero. That is the aproximate amount of fucks we give. Make your stuff safe, healthy and within regulations and we'll be happy to accept the competition. Try to sell chicken legs from a corona infested market in China to the EU and you can go to hell as far as we're concerned.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •