View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26841
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Do you know what price increase means?
    Ever since the age of sail, shipping stuff accross oceans has been cheaper than carting it a few tens of km trough land.

    In this age of container ships and trailer trucks this hasn't changed. Although the price of land tranaportation was decreased by the advent of the railroad, freight trains are a dying breed on the Old Continent.

    Edit : hence me being able to buy fruits from as far as Peru, New Zeland and South Africa cheaper than EU produce...
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2020-02-10 at 08:16 PM.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  2. #26842
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You really have to hope, in a way akin to self harm and wish that Brexit messes the UK up so badly we crash and burn and are forced to go begging to the EU to be let back in.
    Dude…

    There is no longer “we”, it’s “you” and “us”.

    That is the tack I’ll be taking in all manner of walks of life. Yes, I wish harm upon the stupid / or not so stupid fuckers who have brought this to bear. Own it.

    Eire voting Sinn Fein in today ushers in the break up of the Union.

    Bwahahahaha

  3. #26843
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Dude…

    There is no longer “we”, it’s “you” and “us”.

    That is the tack I’ll be taking in all manner of walks of life. Yes, I wish harm upon the stupid / or not so stupid fuckers who have brought this to bear. Own it.

    Eire voting Sinn Fein in today ushers in the break up of the Union.

    Bwahahahaha
    Still no guarantee with Sinn Fein since even though they are the largest the two other big ones could band together with Greens and Labour to sneak over the line. Coalitions and all. (which is still prefereable to FPTP)

  4. #26844
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Still no guarantee with Sinn Fein since even though they are the largest the two other big ones could band together with Greens and Labour to sneak over the line. Coalitions and all. (which is still prefereable to FPTP)
    Yep, I know.

    But it's a shift in the popular vote.

    There may be no border poll in the next five years, but there sure as hell will be one within in the next decade.

  5. #26845
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Yep, I know.

    But it's a shift in the popular vote.

    There may be no border poll in the next five years, but there sure as hell will be one within in the next decade.
    You remainers are so confused. How does the break up of the Union help your cause? England on its own will never in your lifetime see another Labour government in Westminster.

    And as for your bwahhhaaaha over the Sinn Fein result in Ireland, with the same policies as Corbyn on steroids, well that's a win for Boris. When they start taxing the likes of Amazon, Google, Intel currently in Dublin until the pips squeak, where do you think they will go? England with the newly created Singapore upon Thames just across the water from Europe will be the winner.

    We both are Englanders aren't we Nigel? I'm with you that the Sinn Fein result is a good one for us...

    We both can bwahahahaaa as one. Who'd have thought the Irish would unite us?

  6. #26846
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Ever since the age of sail, shipping stuff accross oceans has been cheaper than carting it a few tens of km trough land.

    In this age of container ships and trailer trucks this hasn't changed. Although the price of land tranaportation was decreased by the advent of the railroad, freight trains are a dying breed on the Old Continent.

    Edit : hence me being able to buy fruits from as far as Peru, New Zeland and South Africa cheaper than EU produce...
    Oh great, another one who thoroughly researched the stuff he talks about.

    Currently when something ships to the EU it ships to one of several large ports and is then redistributed. What keeps costs down is, everything is cleared already because it is irrelevant where within the EU the cargo goes. Not anymore with the UK. So either it will ship directly to the UK which will increase costs because obviously not the same amount will be needed compared to the whole of the EU or it will be cleared the same way as currently but with more paperwork in between which in turn increases cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  7. #26847
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Oh great, another one who thoroughly researched the stuff he talks about.

    Currently when something ships to the EU it ships to one of several large ports and is then redistributed. What keeps costs down is, everything is cleared already because it is irrelevant where within the EU the cargo goes. Not anymore with the UK. So either it will ship directly to the UK which will increase costs because obviously not the same amount will be needed compared to the whole of the EU or it will be cleared the same way as currently but with more paperwork in between which in turn increases cost.
    First, I am not even living in the EU, nor the UK, and we slap tariffs on both EU and non EU products anyway, depending on our own trade agreements, and freely slap taxes on them on our own, notably a low, EU-incompatible VAT rate of 7.7%, which make most goods imported from far away cheaper than in neighboring EU countries, despite being a landlocked country.

    Second: ever heard of free ports, of which there are a great number across the EU?

    Third, you are blatantly ignoring several specificities the UK:
    -the UK, is, well, surrounded by the sea, which makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex, and costly than on the mainland
    -in turn, being an island, the UK has always been well endowed with harbors
    -tonnage from major UK harbors is like an order of magnitude higher than Eurotunnel traffic
    -each countries can have differing requirements in matter of imported goods : we don't eat the same stuff, we don't wear the same clothes, we don't have the same electric plugs, we don't drive on the same side of the road, etc...
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  8. #26848
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You remainers are so confused. How does the break up of the Union help your cause? England on its own will never in your lifetime see another Labour government in Westminster.
    However shall we compete with permanent Tory austerity. /s

    And as for your bwahhhaaaha over the Sinn Fein result in Ireland, with the same policies as Corbyn on steroids, well that's a win for Boris. When they start taxing the likes of Amazon, Google, Intel currently in Dublin until the pips squeak, where do you think they will go? England with the newly created Singapore upon Thames just across the water from Europe will be the winner.
    Ah yes, because as we all know England is just a hair's breadth from being exactly like Singapore what with all its austerity induced poverty, ramshackle political system, complete lack of any significant economic relevance besides being a big finance center (for now), etc.

    We both can bwahahahaaa as one. Who'd have thought the Irish would unite us?
    They've done a pretty good job of being a punching bag whenever y'all get the itch to do a colonialism to deflect from domestic problems, so why's this surprising?

    I honestly can't recall a period in history where self proclaimed nationalists were so gleeful about the breakup of their empire.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  9. #26849
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    snip
    its about capacity and efficiency. physical limits with additional checks and paperwok.

    tans are about to gut thier domestic competitiveness

  10. #26850
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    its about capacity and efficiency. physical limits with additional checks and paperwok.

    tans are about to gut thier domestic competitiveness
    Except there is a whole wide world beside the EU and the UK.

    Yes the creation of the EU has allowed to bolster trade and circulation of people between its members, but at the same time it has erected additional barriers towards the rest of the world.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  11. #26851
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Except there is a whole wide world beside the EU and the UK.

    Yes the creation of the EU has allowed to bolster trade and circulation of people between its members, but at the same time it has erected additional barriers towards the rest of the world.
    Really? Cause I'm pretty sure Slant already posted about the EU's highly extensive network of trade deals which it has managed to negotiate despite being a far from unified bloc.

    The barriers it's erected have been entirely for the benefit of local industries in the EU. You can thank them for the fact that every dairy in Heibei province isn't churning out Gruyere.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  12. #26852
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Really? Cause I'm pretty sure Slant already posted about the EU's highly extensive network of trade deals which it has managed to negotiate despite being a far from unified bloc.

    The barriers it's erected have been entirely for the benefit of local industries in the EU. You can thank them for the fact that every dairy in Heibei province isn't churning out Gruyere.
    Like how well TTIP or even CETA are progressing and being locally received?

    Such good trade agreements that now instead they are churning the likes of high-tech trains, cars and the likes from appropriated tech?

    Edit : not to mention that the Chinese public would rather buy dairy from the EU than the domestic, melamin-laced variations.
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2020-02-11 at 12:36 PM.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  13. #26853
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    First, I am not even living in the EU, nor the UK, and we slap tariffs on both EU and non EU products anyway, depending on our own trade agreements, and freely slap taxes on them on our own, notably a low, EU-incompatible VAT rate of 7.7%, which make most goods imported from far away cheaper than in neighboring EU countries, despite being a landlocked country.

    Second: ever heard of free ports, of which there are a great number across the EU?

    Third, you are blatantly ignoring several specificities the UK:
    -the UK, is, well, surrounded by the sea, which makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex, and costly than on the mainland
    -in turn, being an island, the UK has always been well endowed with harbors
    -tonnage from major UK harbors is like an order of magnitude higher than Eurotunnel traffic
    -each countries can have differing requirements in matter of imported goods : we don't eat the same stuff, we don't wear the same clothes, we don't have the same electric plugs, we don't drive on the same side of the road, etc...
    Exactly, according to trade agreements. Apparently that didn't ring a bell.

    So these free ports are already established and well working. What incentive have companies to change service?

    Wait, so you're telling me being surrounded by the sea makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex and costly? Wasn't that what I was saying the whole time? Now follow me here, do you think it's more costly and complex if the continent in question is even farther away?

    The UK is so well endowed with harbors that out of the 10 busiest harbors in the EU it has one in the top 10 on rank 7. That is truly amazing.

    Yep, it is, what is your point? I already explained to you what I was talking about.

    And I use different electric plugs and you know what, manufacturers just include different connectors and are done with it, I have plugs that are designed for British sockets with half my electrics for spare.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  14. #26854
    We seem to be doing quite well at present, huh.

    UK economy saw zero growth at the end of 2019
    The UK economy saw no growth in the final three months of 2019, as manufacturing contracted for the third quarter in a row and the service sector slowed around the time of the election.

  15. #26855
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Like how well TTIP or even CETA are progressing and being locally received?
    I uhm, TTIP died exactly because the EU protected its businesses against the US. What's your point?

    Are you arguing that not selling out is equal to erecting additional barriers?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  16. #26856
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Like how well TTIP or even CETA are progressing and being locally received?

    Such good trade agreements that now instead they are churning the likes of high-tech trains, cars and the likes from appropriated tech?

    Edit : not to mention that the Chinese public would rather buy dairy from the EU than the domestic, melamin-laced variations.
    TTIP is pretty much dead, because the EU correctly put a stop to it due to outrageous demands from the US (private companies being able to sue European nations or even the EU itself before a US civil court, for example). See, that's what the EU is there for, they are pros and they don't agree to every bullshit because the EU can afford to say no and just walk away. There's an entire fucking planet that wants to deal with us.

    CETA and the Belgian resistance demonstrates democracy at work in the EU. Even if you're some tiny little minority region, yes, you can absolutely block an entire deal between the EU and Canada. That is by design and most of us in the EU would rather have a deal blocked than abandon proper democratic structures and giving even the little man a proper voice in the proceedings.

    No idea what you're talking about... churning who exactly? And what does churning mean in this context?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Except there is a whole wide world beside the EU and the UK.

    Yes the creation of the EU has allowed to bolster trade and circulation of people between its members, but at the same time it has erected additional barriers towards the rest of the world.
    Bullshit. The EU has a big network of trade deals that have the sole aim to reduce barriers. The trade deals of the EU customarily REDUCE prices on both sides and make trade easier. Of course the EU is protecting its markets. From bullshit zero quality rip offs, dangerous and unsafe goods, food sources that provide a danger to our health. People like you seem to have no clue how the world works. They go "Oh, so the EU introduced custom tariffs up to 10%"

    Well, yeah. But the WTO term was more like 20%. That is the real world. WTO terms are shit. They are REALLY bad. People have got to look at the shit and realise just how bad it is before they come here and whinge about the EU introducing negotiated customs that are lower than WTO terms! And the biggest caveat is that the EU insists on maintaining EU regulations. Because, let's be honest, most places don't have this extensive set of customer protection and technical rules and their stuff would fuck up our standard of living if we just let them swamp our continent.

    Don't like it? Zero. That is the aproximate amount of fucks we give. Make your stuff safe, healthy and within regulations and we'll be happy to accept the competition. Try to sell chicken legs from a corona infested market in China to the EU and you can go to hell as far as we're concerned.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
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  17. #26857
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    We seem to be doing quite well at present, huh.

    UK economy saw zero growth at the end of 2019

    The UK economy actually did better than some rivals, despite stagnating in the last quarter.

    We don’t have all the GDP reports for Q4 yet, but as things stand we know that America and Spain did OK while France and Italy shrank. China was the standout performer, even though annual growth dropped to a 30-year low.

    China: +1.5% quarter-on-quarter growth in October-December
    US: +0.5%
    Spain: +0.5%
    Eurozone: +0.1%
    UK: zero growth
    France: GDP shrank by 0.1%
    Italy: GDP shrank by 0.3%
    On an annual basis, the UK is mid-table too:

    Thats from the Guardian

    The GDP report also showed that the UK economy grew by 1.4% during 2019.

    That’s faster than the eurozone, where France’s economy shrank 0.1% during the last quarter.

    I watched sky news this morning and said it was in line what economists predicted and that the Imf expected the uk to bounce back in the next quarter and show sighs of growth again.

    So not the best news but not terrible.

  18. #26858

    So not the best news but not terrible.
    However bad the economy is doing somewhere will always be worse.

    We are outperforming Somalia! Yay!

    (EDIT: I checked. We are actually under-performing Somalia...)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post

    And as for your bwahhhaaaha over the Sinn Fein result in Ireland, with the same policies as Corbyn on steroids, well that's a win for Boris. When they start taxing the likes of Amazon, Google, Intel currently in Dublin until the pips squeak, where do you think they will go? England with the newly created Singapore upon Thames just across the water from Europe will be the winner.
    I think you'll find that the Shinners are quite effective dribbles. They got where they are for a reason: they are very good at making socialism work on a practical level. If you have a leaky pipe they send someone round to fix it: this is why they succeed where the English Labour party mostly doesn't. You'll find that they do pretty well at keeping the US corporations on-board while maintaining their core vote.

    Unfortunately they hate the English with a passion and could plausibly start trying to kill us again now they potentially have the resources of a nation-state at their disposal.
    Last edited by Trandwithd; 2020-02-11 at 07:50 PM.

  19. #26859
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Exactly, according to trade agreements. Apparently that didn't ring a bell.
    In our case according to trade agreements negociated outside the EU, tailored to our need. So your point?

    So these free ports are already established and well working. What incentive have companies to change service?
    Ergo your doom and gloom scenario is not gonna happen. And on the contrary the UK will be allowed to create Free Ports independently from EU regulations that tended to limit them to "catching-up" new members.

    Wait, so you're telling me being surrounded by the sea makes redistribution from a port on another continent a little bit more complex and costly? Wasn't that what I was saying the whole time? Now follow me here, do you think it's more costly and complex if the continent in question is even farther away?
    I'm saying that trucking from a major port on another continent is much more complex and costly. We've already established it to be cheaper to ship it from the other side of the world regardless of destination harbor.

    The UK is so well endowed with harbors that out of the 10 busiest harbors in the EU it has one in the top 10 on rank 7. That is truly amazing.
    Looking at a map you'll notice that most countries on the mainland rely on 1 or 2 gateways depending on their geography : limited/divided coastline, major river basin, vast hinterland, being landlocked. Its only logical that their traffic is much more concentrated. Notice that some benefit from Free Port status.
    On the other hand, you'll notice that the UK consists of islands with several centers, connected by harbors, which since ancient times have allowed the easy movement of good, litteraly around the country. It is only logical that tonnage is divided over their numerous harbor, as 1/5 of tonnage is shipping between british harbors.

    And I use different electric plugs and you know what, manufacturers just include different connectors and are done with it, I have plugs that are designed for British sockets with half my electrics for spare.
    Still doesn't work for cars.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I uhm, TTIP died exactly because the EU protected its businesses against the US. What's your point?

    Are you arguing that not selling out is equal to erecting additional barriers?
    That plus Trump put his nose in it. Result : there is no trade agreement, so which trade agreements are you talking about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    TTIP is pretty much dead, because the EU correctly put a stop to it due to outrageous demands from the US (private companies being able to sue European nations or even the EU itself before a US civil court, for example). See, that's what the EU is there for, they are pros and they don't agree to every bullshit because the EU can afford to say no and just walk away. There's an entire fucking planet that wants to deal with us.

    CETA and the Belgian resistance demonstrates democracy at work in the EU. Even if you're some tiny little minority region, yes, you can absolutely block an entire deal between the EU and Canada. That is by design and most of us in the EU would rather have a deal blocked than abandon proper democratic structures and giving even the little man a proper voice in the proceedings.
    I was refering to Elegiac's post touting the ability of the EU to enable trade agreements. So far I don't see any. On the other hand, we, a non-EU country, already have a number tailored to our needs.

    No idea what you're talking about... churning who exactly? And what does churning mean in this context?
    Churning out, my bad, again I was referring to Elegiac's post thanking the EU trade agreements for protecting us from chinese Gruyère, pointing at the fact that they did not prevent the siphoning of european advanced-technology. So instead of producing knock-off cheese, chinese factories will build knock-off cars, trains, airplanes and the likes. A stellar accomplishment.

    Bullshit. The EU has a big network of trade deals that have the sole aim to reduce barriers. The trade deals of the EU customarily REDUCE prices on both sides and make trade easier. Of course the EU is protecting its markets. From bullshit zero quality rip offs, dangerous and unsafe goods, food sources that provide a danger to our health. People like you seem to have no clue how the world works. They go "Oh, so the EU introduced custom tariffs up to 10%"

    Well, yeah. But the WTO term was more like 20%. That is the real world. WTO terms are shit. They are REALLY bad. People have got to look at the shit and realise just how bad it is before they come here and whinge about the EU introducing negotiated customs that are lower than WTO terms! And the biggest caveat is that the EU insists on maintaining EU regulations. Because, let's be honest, most places don't have this extensive set of customer protection and technical rules and their stuff would fuck up our standard of living if we just let them swamp our continent.

    Don't like it? Zero. That is the aproximate amount of fucks we give. Make your stuff safe, healthy and within regulations and we'll be happy to accept the competition. Try to sell chicken legs from a corona infested market in China to the EU and you can go to hell as far as we're concerned.
    Again, we, as a non-EU country, have our own trade deals that allow us to bolster trade on both ends. And when it comes to quality and safety, well, there is increasing concern that a number of EU products aren't holding to our own standards.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  20. #26860
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Bullshit. The EU has a big network of trade deals that have the sole aim to reduce barriers. The trade deals of the EU customarily REDUCE prices on both sides and make trade easier. Of course the EU is protecting its markets. From bullshit zero quality rip offs, dangerous and unsafe goods, food sources that provide a danger to our health. People like you seem to have no clue how the world works. They go "Oh, so the EU introduced custom tariffs up to 10%".
    Care to explain how in CETA the current stance of the EU "prove that it's safe" is revered to "you can sue when proven unsafe". Or how companies can sue local governments if their decisions undermine the companies investments. Or how the import of meat containing grow hormones forbidden currently in EU is possible with CETA. And that's not just CETA, the same is happening with the deals with Ukraine where importing (especially) meat from chickens not compliant with EU laws all of a sudden is allowed?

    Belgium is not alone in their resistance to CETA, there are a lot more countries. But since the agreements are already being enacted since September 21, 2017 it's futile for solitary countries to go against it.

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