View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #26921
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Walking Away Without Deal Will Hurt European Union, Not Britain. The British side now holds all the cards, as the European Union cannot afford to let Britain go without a deal.
    That's what you're going with now? That no-deal will hurt the EU, and somehow magically not damage Britain?

    This is beyond simple Brexiteer stupidity and veered into satire now, surely?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
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  2. #26922
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No it is not, likewise it is not the UK's problem that the EU wants or needs time to sort out whether all member states agree.

    Indeed there has been much time wasted I would have thought that as a result all parties would want to bring the matter to close as swiftly as possible. It is the EU's timetable. Whether you think the plan is good or not the UK does have a plan - agree a FTA or trade on WTO terms - to say that there is no plan is simply false.

    The UK is not pushing anyone around. If it is not possible to agree a FTA - or a least the minimums - within agreed time then perhaps a different timetable should have been agreed?

    Many would say that that the whole of Brexit but hey ho.

    Well then I guess that it's going to be WTO terms then.
    Good grief man! The EU built in mechanisms that allow extensions if there is a need for it. It is solely the UK that for some idiotic reason refuse to use them.

  3. #26923
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No it is not, likewise it is not the UK's problem that the EU wants or needs time to sort out whether all member states agree.

    Indeed there has been much time wasted I would have thought that as a result all parties would want to bring the matter to close as swiftly as possible. It is the EU's timetable. Whether you think the plan is good or not the UK does have a plan - agree a FTA or trade on WTO terms - to say that there is no plan is simply false.

    The UK is not pushing anyone around. If it is not possible to agree a FTA - or a least the minimums - within agreed time then perhaps a different timetable should have been agreed?

    Many would say that that the whole of Brexit but hey ho.

    Well then I guess that it's going to be WTO terms then.
    Reconciling the two positions will just take time. You can't say it's not your problem when you have helped build the eu and its processes over the last 40 years. Saying that we can agree to something vastly more complex than the WA which took over 3 years in just 4 months is just disingenuous.
    The timeline was decided together with the UK with provisions for extensions. I guess BoJo thought that would be easier to sell than the backstop? But the UK shut down that possibility.
    But back on topic. Considering how long this thing has been going on, how much there is to do and how little time there is to do it, i don't see the point of saying "you guys better agree to my demands in 4 months or else "... when there are only 7 or 8 months anyway.
    But that's how I see it I guess. Or BoJo is just playing strongman to appeal to his fanbase.
    If wto is the plan he could just have said so and not wasted everyone's time though ..

  4. #26924
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Reconciling the two positions will just take time. You can't say it's not your problem when you have helped build the eu and its processes over the last 40 years. Saying that we can agree to something vastly more complex than the WA which took over 3 years in just 4 months is just disingenuous.
    The timeline was decided together with the UK with provisions for extensions. I guess BoJo thought that would be easier to sell than the backstop? But the UK shut down that possibility.
    But back on topic. Considering how long this thing has been going on, how much there is to do and how little time there is to do it, i don't see the point of saying "you guys better agree to my demands in 4 months or else "... when there are only 7 or 8 months anyway.
    But that's how I see it I guess. Or BoJo is just playing strongman to appeal to his fanbase.
    If wto is the plan he could just have said so and not wasted everyone's time though ..
    I'm not saying that at all nor am I saying that it can be agreed.

    The provision for an extension does not mean that it has to be taken, both the EU and UK could decide that extension is not in their best interests and I suspect that come June with no agreement reached that if the EU was to decide that it did not want an extension that you and, most certainly, other posters would not only be supportive of this position but keen to press upon those of us from the UK that we deserve everything coming to us.

    The UK is not saying that the EU better agree to our demands. And even if it was - why is this an issue? I mean from we've all been told, in this very thread, that the UK holds no power and that EU is so much stronger than the UK therefore form where you're sitting there is nothing to worry about whilst we in the UK will be shown the error of our - I mean dribbles' - ways.

    WTO is neither the plan nor desirable however the UK will accept these terms if a deal cannot be reached.

  5. #26925
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    That's what you're going with now? That no-deal will hurt the EU, and somehow magically not damage Britain?

    This is beyond simple Brexiteer stupidity and veered into satire now, surely?
    Yeah... at this point it is not really worth discussing with him anymore. He is so far into fantasy land, that any reasonable argument or fact will land on deaf ears anyway

  6. #26926
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The clock started because the EU refused to negotiate unless and until Article 50 was triggered. That is defective EU legislation all on them and not the fault of the UK.

    Not our problem though now we hold all the cards.

    Walking Away Without Deal Will Hurt European Union, Not Britain. The British side now holds all the cards, as the European Union cannot afford to let Britain go without a deal.

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/202...-not-britain/#

    Chop chop eurochums, the clock is ticking...
    Unironically quoting Breitbart. Oh boy

    Ofcourse there is no negotiation until article 50 is triggered.
    Its like haggling over who gets what in a divorce and then deciding if you want a divorce or not based on how much of the other persons stuff you managed to score.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No it is not, likewise it is not the UK's problem that the EU wants or needs time to sort out whether all member states agree.

    Indeed there has been much time wasted I would have thought that as a result all parties would want to bring the matter to close as swiftly as possible. It is the EU's timetable. Whether you think the plan is good or not the UK does have a plan - agree a FTA or trade on WTO terms - to say that there is no plan is simply false.

    The UK is not pushing anyone around. If it is not possible to agree a FTA - or a least the minimums - within agreed time then perhaps a different timetable should have been agreed?

    Many would say that that the whole of Brexit but hey ho.

    Well then I guess that it's going to be WTO terms then.
    I'd say the UK is most certainly trying to push around by having a position that goes against the basic tenants of the EU.
    Heck basic principles of any trade treaty, ensuring a (somewhat) equal opportunity market.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #26927
    VDL is on record that if the UK ends up prefering trade on WTO terms over what the EU is prepared to offer, that's fine with us too. So we are going full ahead to no deal at the end of this year and then implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  8. #26928
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I'm not saying that at all nor am I saying that it can be agreed.

    The provision for an extension does not mean that it has to be taken, both the EU and UK could decide that extension is not in their best interests and I suspect that come June with no agreement reached that if the EU was to decide that it did not want an extension that you and, most certainly, other posters would not only be supportive of this position but keen to press upon those of us from the UK that we deserve everything coming to us.

    The UK is not saying that the EU better agree to our demands. And even if it was - why is this an issue? I mean from we've all been told, in this very thread, that the UK holds no power and that EU is so much stronger than the UK therefore form where you're sitting there is nothing to worry about whilst we in the UK will be shown the error of our - I mean dribbles' - ways.

    WTO is neither the plan nor desirable however the UK will accept these terms if a deal cannot be reached.
    That is just not true. I do not support the EU slamming the door. Since the referendum we have seen the UK going from "we want a close partnership! Still love you guys!", to 3 years of "what do we do?" to a PM forcing an impossible schedule and binary choice (after conveniently shutting parliament oversight on the process).
    The EU's position in the meantime has been "take all the time you need but know this and this is not going to work for us".
    We are now in the part of the negotiations that matters, that will most impact businesses, jobs and people in the future, and somehow your government decides that an extension will not happen (the point is not whether it would be used or not, a lot can happen in the next few months), and that a full 8 months of work on this might be too much to ask from you.

    There was a time when WTO was a horrifying prospect. What happened to you guys in the meantime? We did not ask for Brexit, and we sure as hell did not ask for no deal, but your government sure as hell make it harder and harder to avoid before we even try to find compromises and ways to minimise the damage to both sides.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    VDL is on record that if the UK ends up prefering trade on WTO terms over what the EU is prepared to offer, that's fine with us too. So we are going full ahead to no deal at the end of this year and then implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement.
    Well if the UK rather trades on wto terms than work on an agreement, there is not much the EU can do about it.

  9. #26929
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    There was a time when WTO was a horrifying prospect. What happened to you guys in the meantime? We did not ask for Brexit, and we sure as hell did not ask for no deal, but your government sure as hell make it harder and harder to avoid before we even try to find compromises and ways to minimise the damage to both sides.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well if the UK rather trades on wto terms than work on an agreement, there is not much the EU can do about it.
    Eh the EU said it's fine with that as well. But after the transition period ends, the Withdrawal Agreement is active and that one is a binding international treaty that both sides and especially NI were hoping would never have to be active cause an FTA would supersede it.

    As for the UK's side, it makes absolute sense that they would not want to align unilaterally to the EU rulebooks in posterity. Which they suggested they were willing to do with the joint declaration that was signed together with the WA which pretty much is the same with the EU's current position; all the things the EU is asking were already agreed upon back then and the UK is simply backtracking. And that's OK, the UK should never have agreed on them in the firstplace. Boris just needed that WA so he could move on to elections and he got it. It should have always been clear that with the UK's current interpretation of sovereignty, nothing other than WTO rules could work. And now we are at a point where both sides are asking for things the other side would never possibly agree to. End this charade I say.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  10. #26930
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The UK has repeatedly said that it will not agree to an extension.

    The UK is following the schedule was set out and agreed by the EU. So what should the UK do? Continue to follow EU laws without say and pay into the budget until the 27 get around to agreeing with each other? I'm sorry but as much as I think Brexit is a mistake I do not think that is a reasonable expectation.
    Crash out and find out what the consequences are. And it's not the EU that has a problem making decisions, as your Parliament has shown being indecisive about one question for almost 4 years. So don't give us that bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No it is not, likewise it is not the UK's problem that the EU wants or needs time to sort out whether all member states agree.
    The EU has already agreed and has its roadmap planned out. FFS, being so dishonest. It was never the EU that was the reason for any holdup. Sure, the EU didn't push the UK into decisions to hurry things up. That is what happens if you don't want to interfere into the internal matters of a sovereign fucking nation. You just don't get to pin that on the EU now.
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  11. #26931
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    That's what you're going with now? That no-deal will hurt the EU, and somehow magically not damage Britain?

    This is beyond simple Brexiteer stupidity and veered into satire now, surely?
    I mean, he's using things like Breitbart and facts4eu as his sources. He's an actor playing a part, nobody is this daft.

  12. #26932
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Pann is not a brexiteer. He is just doing the fact checking around here and keeping us on our toes.
    He's a Brexiteer and a conservative. Despite denying both things he consistently argues for both positions.

    Basically he's someone who is too cowardly to admit his own position.

    As for "fact-checking", he's one of those half-wits who believes only establishment resources. His entire output could be easily replicated by a text algorithm that scanned the headlines of the newspapers. Like most similar idiots he doesn't understand those sources essentially present the views of their wealthy owners. He clearly has no idea what a primary source is: even when presented with very clear and specific information he will post some guardian or times article as if it were gospel. I'm not impressed.

  13. #26933
    The government has published the terms of reference on the UK-EU future relationship negotiations which includes discussions on Level Playing Field for open and fair competition in the agenda.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...p-negotiations

  14. #26934
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I mean, he's using things like Breitbart and facts4eu as his sources. He's an actor playing a part, nobody is this daft.
    Look breitbart was the mailman, the Messenger was David Davis - someone who has spent a lot of time in the EU trenches and is recently back from the front line. If anyone is a brexologist he is, moreso than anyone on here.
    Brexiteers are the new remainers. To remain outside of the EU.

  15. #26935
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Look breitbart was the mailman, the Messenger was David Davis - someone who has spent a lot of time in the EU trenches and is recently back from the front line. If anyone is a brexologist he is, moreso than anyone on here.
    A man who didn't even know which country the negotiations were going to be held in and who famously showed up for a few minutes per week when negotiations were ongoing? Yeah right...

  16. #26936
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Why would the EU grant more extensions when all it does is increase the further uncertainty and Britain is incapable of delivering a coherent and detailed plan what they want out of the Brexit, not to even mention not even capable of delivering adults to the table.

    Man i feel sorry for everyone involved with those british clowns for politicians, this extends to the diplomats trying to do the ground work for a bunch of kids.

    The current leadership wants to crash out because it fits their long term view or personal political gain, there is no denying that.

  17. #26937
    Looks like the EU is making life easier for the British who are Working and Living in the EU by creating a Residence Card.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...ence-documen/#

    The Commission told POLITICO it wants to ensure British residents in the EU have a “simple, uniform” physical document that helps them prove their residence status and continue to be able to exercise their rights.

  18. #26938
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotuthan View Post
    Looks like the EU is making life easier for the British who are Working and Living in the EU by creating a Residence Card.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...ence-documen/#
    Well someone has to look out for the british, cause it sure as shit won't be their own government. Sadly i doubt this level of civility won't be granted to EU citizens in the UK.

    Not a matter of goodwill though, just a matter of making things work and so this is an most likely a request from employers.

  19. #26939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotuthan View Post
    Looks like the EU is making life easier for the British who are Working and Living in the EU by creating a Residence Card.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...ence-documen/#
    That just sounds like a universally good thing. The EU gets to keep labourers, and the UK either does the same, or get to look like idiots.

  20. #26940
    Quote Originally Posted by Kotuthan View Post
    Looks like the EU is making life easier for the British who are Working and Living in the EU by creating a Residence Card.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...ence-documen/#
    To be fair the UK is doing more or less the same thing. The only thing is that the EU is issuing a physical card while the UK has a digital register.
    It's not as though the settled status for EU citizens in the UK disappeared.

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