[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I have stated numerous times that there will be consequences to leaving the Eu, but there will also be opportunities. This last line seems to bring out the crazies, who see my sort of comment as some sort of unholy command lol.

That's because it is a meaningless talking point when it isn't accompanied by examples of what those opportunities could be, and an argument for why it is an opportunity that did not predate Brexit.

For example, the "opportunity" to trade with out-of-EU countries is often quoted, but never substantiated. British businesses have always been able to trade with customers outside the EU. This assertion also usually fails to take the existing business with EU members which has now become moot into account, because it is in many cases (such as meat and dairy) no longer possible to make a profit while staying competitive with the domestic (or EU-internally sourced) product or because the product cannot clear customs before it becomes no longer fit for human consumption.

The opportunities outside the EU need to outweigh the lost opportunities within the EU before they become a benefit of Brexit, and right now that specific oppotunity looks more like wishful thinking.

[sircaw]

That's because it is a meaningless talking point when it isn't accompanied by examples of what those opportunities could be, and an argument for why it is an opportunity that did not predate Brexit.

For example, the "opportunity" to trade with out-of-EU countries is often quoted, but never substantiated. British businesses have always been able to trade with customers outside the EU. This assertion also usually fails to take the existing business with EU members which has now become moot into account, because it is in many cases (such as meat and dairy) no longer possible to make a profit while staying competitive with the domestic (or EU-internally sourced) product or because the product cannot clear customs before it becomes no longer fit for human consumption.

The opportunities outside the EU need to outweigh the lost opportunities within the EU before they become a benefit of Brexit, and right now that specific oppotunity looks more like wishful thinking.

I gave an example a few months ago when i tried to discuss the experts on sky news saying positive things about the UK after Brexit, i mentioned it here and i was insulted and basically told to ignore things as sky news UK could not be trusted as a reliable source ( HAHA)

It's very hard to have a voice when you say things and you are dismissed straight away or called a troll, i hope you can see that.

I had enough of this place due to its constant negativity and left for a good break, i have come back and i still see the same usual suspects doing the same thing.

If i do mention a positive story about Brexit, you damn well know i will be attacked for it.

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Anyway, its time for some Man Utd vs Liverpool game, thanks for the chat everyone, at least we got some headway and hopefully some understanding in the discussions.


Peace.

[Slant]

So being told to fuck off,
To lay in your own filth,
Your nothing but a troll,
your to stupid to understand whats going on,
You should be banned for what you're saying.
you have a victim complex, that's all this is.

Are if you even reading the replies from the people that are talking to me on this forum, For a person that says they see the other person's point of views, how do all these points just wash over you. EXPLAIN.

Your not seeing the other side at all, I am sorry that is a lie no matter how hard you try to dress it up.

I hope people can see this point.

then again, when i was told to fuck off no-one said a thing, but when I said i hope the UK does well, it was like i kicked a hornet nest.

Those things are not things I said. I am not responsible for what other people said. But, predictably, you did not take the opportunity to give me a sane reason for Brexit. You are good at complaining and playing the victim card, but when engaged seriously, you play games. I'm not patient enough to play games with you, so if you want to get taken seriously, maybe make serious posts.

The UK isn't doing well, and it won't do well. But you can certainly hope it does as well as can be expected under the circumstances. That's all I can say about it.

[Huehuecoyotl]

If i do mention a positive story about Brexit, you damn well know i will be attacked for it.

Would you? Why don't you try it. Post a positive story about Brexit and lets see what happens. Not the Nissan one, because we know that's neutral not positive.

But bear in mind that we won't simply accept it as written. We will look into whether it's true, what it actually means and whether it really is positive. We'll apply critical thinking and if required we will refute it, or caveat it. Or argue against it.

The main thing, from your point of view, is to not take that personally. If you believe something and someone else points out an error in your thinking or the facts that underpin that belief, you have two choices. You can take the new information onboard and adjust your position accordingly. Or you can stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala, I'm not listening".

The problem we have in this thread is that we've had a LOT of people in that second category. We have people like dribbles who are still in that category as reality evolves around them. It gets VERY tiresome dealing with people who have no intention of discussion anything, but simply want to troll that "they won" or post nonsense stories that they insist show how wonderful Brexit is while actually proving the exact opposite.

So let's wipe the slate clean. Give us some Brexit positives and let's have a friendly discussion about them. And see if we can all learn something as we go.

[Mayhem]

What i don't like is people trying to quash my opinion or my outlook on things with dishonest takes on my character, this place is by all accounts a barrage of constant negativity when the UK is discussed.

I have stated numerous times that there will be consequences to leaving the Eu, but there will also be opportunities. This last line seems to bring out the crazies, who see my sort of comment as some sort of unholy command lol.

For some reason being positive about your country is a real taboo around here especially when the UK is named as said country.

I have stated that I don't like the ERg but that is not good enough
I have stated that I don't like Reece Mog guy but that is not good enough
I have said there will be consequences to leaving the but I believe there will be opportunities but that is not good enough.

Can you see a pattern developing here? Your either with us fully or we are against you, and this is what I have been stating all along. There are a lot of people, not you, that are trying to worm their comments or arguments to somehow get one over me.

Just like the guy that said i was spreading propaganda, when i said well like what, show me what i have said wrong, he simply insulted me and left. It's disingenuous at best.

I mean even Slant is trying to find an angle here as well, he just can not accept, for some reason that i want my country to succeed and pulls we all love the UK routine, what a load of rubbish. Slant gives two fucks about the Uk, he is just pissed because the UK had the nerve to leave his beloved club, that's it.

We have had years of this now, and they are still moaning, if they cared so much they would say damn the election was close and there is still 50% of the population that voted to remain, instead of reminding them every day how shit their lives are going to be for the next ten years and try that we might to get behind them, maybe we should try support them.

We have left, nothing is going to change that, and for all the people saying we care about the UK, then start proving it and also publish some of the positive stories or opportunities about Brexit, i know you have seen them, but you would rather ignore them as it does not support your narrative.

To everyone in this thread, if what I say insults you, and you can't stand someone talking or hoping that UK does well, put me on ignore.

I don't know why you keep asking for honest discussions when you keep ignoring posts and arguments made. No one in here is hoping the UK doesn't do well. Everyone apart form a few brexiteers and some that keep insisting they are remainers while only ever siding with brexiteers is trying to bring reality into this thread.

So far you are showing a victim complex, argue against strawmen, and ignore reality as it suits you, so you're being treated as a troll.

[sircaw]

Would you? Why don't you try it. Post a positive story about Brexit and lets see what happens. Not the Nissan one, because we know that's neutral not positive.

But bear in mind that we won't simply accept it as written. We will look into whether it's true, what it actually means and whether it really is positive. We'll apply critical thinking and if required we will refute it, or caveat it. Or argue against it.

The main thing, from your point of view, is to not take that personally. If you believe something and someone else points out an error in your thinking or the facts that underpin that belief, you have two choices. You can take the new information onboard and adjust your position accordingly. Or you can stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala, I'm not listening".

The problem we have in this thread is that we've had a LOT of people in that second category. We have people like dribbles who are still in that category as reality evolves around them. It gets VERY tiresome dealing with people who have no intention of discussion anything, but simply want to troll that "they won" or post nonsense stories that they insist show how wonderful Brexit is while actually proving the exact opposite.

So let's wipe the slate clean. Give us some Brexit positives and let's have a friendly discussion about them. And see if we can all learn something as we go.

I already discussed that about the sky news article and how people replied to me, but for some how you happy to ignore that or somehow you missed my point.

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I don't know why you keep asking for honest discussions when you keep ignoring posts and arguments made. No one in here is hoping the UK doesn't do well. Everyone apart form a few brexiteers and some that keep insisting they are remainers while only ever siding with brexiteers is trying to bring reality into this thread.

So far you are showing a victim complex, argue against strawmen, and ignore reality as it suits you, so you're being treated as a troll.

again you have completely missed my points, thanks for reading.

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On this subject, I've just spent 10mins scrolling through nothing but Brexit news and I haven't seen a single large scale positive thing so far (minus the Nissan thing being labelled as a massive benefit, which is good, but its just status quo, literally no change), something that would have actual effect on the country. You could claim that the "MSM only shows the negatives!" or whatever, but I'd have assumed there would be something, from somewhere in the last 13 days (some from the very start of January even managed to slip in there) of articles I went through.

I'd love to see something actually positive. There just doesn't seem to be anything. So, if someone has anything truly positive on a large scale, I'd love to see it.

I am talking about this forum and its constant negative outlook on brext 24/7 7 days a week, you know there have been positive articles about brexit over the years, people hear are just trying to ignore them, just like the sky news article i talked about.

[Mayhem]

again you have completely missed my points, thanks for reading.

Have I?

What points were those? Because so far it's either lies, misconceptions, or made up.

[sircaw]

To summarise, as a lot of people keep missing the points I am trying to make.

This thread is a Brexit thread, not a constant attack on the people that decided to vote the way they did, If you believe in Democracy you should stop acting like their vote is not their right.

I have stated many many times, leaving the eu has some consequences, but there will be opportunities, also the effect of Brexit will be sharp or negative in the short turn but in ten years' time, it might be really good.

I keep hearing people say things like but we love the UK, if you do then start acting like you do and consider the remaining 50% of people that voted to remain. All your doing is bringing them down with your constant bombardment of negativity aimed at the UK. If you genuinely care about the UK like you say, then start linking or talking about positives that will help the UK. I am not asking you to lie i am asking you to be FAIR. I voted for Brexit but i have not made one post attacking the EU have I?, if I can do it so can you.

Another point, please don't attack people or insult people just because they want their country to succeed or have a different opinion than you. People being rude and telling people to fuck off is not a victim complex no matter how many times some tells you it is. I want the Eu to succeed and grow into a better trading block, that helps Europe and that also helps the UK, as the famous quote says we have left the Eu but we have not left Europe.

You guys need to be a bit more tolerant and stop demonizing people that have different views than you. This thread is packed full with remainers and houses only a tiny handful of Brexit supporters, you guys say you want to have conversations with people but at the same time, you attack them when they come in here and leave snotty remarks.

Hopefully, some of you can actually reflect and be honest in your comments, looking at Hueh and butler, it seems like they are prepared to at least reach out and try and give it a go, which i am grateful for.

Back to the football and have a good night.

[Twdft]

If you genuinely care about the UK like you say, then start linking or talking about positives that will help the UK. I am not asking you to lie i am asking you to be FAIR.

If for almost 1400 pages nobody can think of anything positive about it, maybe just maybe there isn't any benefit to it?

You've been asked a couple times to provide the positives that Brexit brings. Or tell us what exactly got better in your life because of Brexit.

[Elegiac]

If you believe in Democracy you should stop acting like their vote is not their right.

We're not. We're criticising them for exercising that right in a stupid and conceited way.

The reactions to any pro-Brexit content are extreme because Brexit is a fundamentally extremist position, dude, that's what you people are not getting over there in Little England. Y'all just seem to think that because a whole bunch of people voted for it, it couldn't possibly be that extreme or that bad.

[Kallisto]

Sircaw this whole looking for positives isn't an honest position. You might be fed up with negatives but that is because brexit is full of them without any real redeeming qualities that the uk couldn't have done pre 2016 vote.

To simplyfy this a little you're looking for positives of losing a leg. The only time it is a positive is if there was something wrong with it. But in the brexit case both legs are healthy. There was no need for the amputation. Right now arguing about positives is essentially saying "At least it's not both legs."

It's not helpful. At best it is disengenuous. At worse outright bullshit. Both legs were healthy and there's no benefits to losing one.

[Elegiac]

Sircaw this whole looking for positives isn't an honest position. You might be fed up with negatives but that is because brexit is full of them without any real redeeming qualities that the uk couldn't have done pre 2016 vote.

To simplyfy this a little you're looking for positives of losing a leg. The only time it is a positive is if there was something wrong with it. But in the brexit case both legs are healthy. There was no need for the amputation. Right now arguing about positives is essentially saying "At least it's not both legs."

It's not helpful. At best it is disengenuous. At worse outright bullshit. Both legs were healthy and there's no benefits to losing one.

"Here's how Brexit can still win..."

[LeGin Tufnel]

Both legs were healthy and there's no benefits to losing one.

It's just a flesh wound.

[Acidbaron]

To repeat myself, i find that the people in favour of the Brexit can't even deliver realistic future positives to this entire story. Because honestly there does not appear to be a plan.

The Brexit campaign was won a whole lot of promises to solutions and it not only hasn't delivered on any, it appears to not to be able to even deliver on them in the future.
People can't demand an honest debate if they can't begin to admit that a lot of the promises were based on misinformation if not lies.

I mean how often can we bring up the NHS bus slogan and how badly that was taken out of context. Because the money gained from not paying into the EU was also completely ignoring the money lost from less trade with the EU.
Or how about the fisheries? Or all those small businesses with less regulations?

You can't say you want an honest discussion and simply ignore the negatives because they don't fit your message.

[sircaw]

To repeat myself, i find that the people in favour of the Brexit can't even deliver realistic future positives to this entire story. Because honestly there does not appear to be a plan.

The Brexit campaign was won a whole lot of promises to solutions and it not only hasn't delivered on any, it appears to not to be able to even deliver on them in the future.
People can't demand an honest debate if they can't begin to admit that a lot of the promises were based on misinformation if not lies.

I mean how often can we bring up the NHS bus slogan and how badly that was taken out of context. Because the money gained from not paying into the EU was also completely ignoring the money lost from less trade with the EU.
Or how about the fisheries? Or all those small businesses with less regulations?

You can't say you want an honest discussion and simply ignore the negatives because they don't fit your message.

No one is ignoring the negatives but your constant flogging of the dead horse day after day, year after year is helping no one and is not sorting anything out, Seems to me your on some sort of Schadenfreude path when it comes to the UK and its possible future.

To keep looking for negatives day after day and salivating at them seems very negative to me, Do you actually have an end game here, Do you want the UK to fail?
because it sure as hell sounds like it from where i sit.

You and the others can go to town on all the negatives of Brexit, that's your prerogative,i am not denying them but neither am i going to go down the rabbit hole, like wanting to believe that the UK is somehow eternally doomed, just like one of the last posts slant made above.

I have not said or denied that there would not be consequences to Brexit, again you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

I believe the UK will be fine in the long run and will prosper, the world is a big place with massive amounts of growth happening outside the Eu.

Have a good one

[Slant]

To summarise, as a lot of people keep missing the points I am trying to make.

Erm, you don't have a monopoly on what to discuss. Either you engage with what people say, or you keep harping on about your victim role that nobody here is interested in or wants to discuss with you. If you think you are being unfairly treated, talk to the mods. If you want to be taken seriously and actually have a conversation, start having a conversation that isn't centered around you personally or your perceived notion that all of the people here are "out to get you".

Your 10 year prediction is fantasy at this point. This isn't about 10 year projections (which are in all likelihood and by all relevant indicators going to contradict you), this is about Brexit and the immediate consequences. The discussion has moved to the actual, real happenings. And the situation is not ideal for Britain right now. If you want to refute that, go ahead. But be prepared to be slammed with an avalanche of articles supporting the notion that... right now? Brexit is in the process of backfiring.

It's not our job to consider the remaining 50% of the population. We have no say in it, they won't feel better because we pity them. And pity or sympathy is not going to change EU citizens from wanting the EU to represent their interests. Against all third countries, including the UK. This is a notion that your side often seems to neglect. They either expect the UK to be given special treatment or actually demand it, or they play the victim card and expect the EU to play nice because of all the poor people suffering.

Be very clear, we can absolutely like the UK and the people in the UK while at the same time expecting the EU to milk the UK for whatever its worth, because that's what the EU does with every third country. International trade and politics isn't about giving away your assets for free. And mind you, if we had wanted to be dicks about it, we'd just have let BoJo drive the car against the wall. You are getting our special, Mr. Nice Guy treatment already. What's happening right now? That's the EU trying to soften the blow and fix mistakes happening on the UK's side because we DO care about UK citizens, even although they are technically not our business.

Not sure why you're harping on about insults, but I think it's time for you to move on. You're a big boy, you can take it. Deal with it, we all have to. This isn't a safe space culture.

[sircaw]

Erm, you don't have a monopoly on what to discuss. Either you engage with what people say, or you keep harping on about your victim role that nobody here is interested in or wants to discuss with you. If you think you are being unfairly treated, talk to the mods. If you want to be taken seriously and actually have a conversation, start having a conversation that isn't centered around you personally or your perceived notion that all of the people here are "out to get you".

Your 10 year prediction is fantasy at this point. This isn't about 10 year projections (which are in all likelihood and by all relevant indicators going to contradict you), this is about Brexit and the immediate consequences. The discussion has moved to the actual, real happenings. And the situation is not ideal for Britain right now. If you want to refute that, go ahead. But be prepared to be slammed with an avalanche of articles supporting the notion that... right now? Brexit is in the process of backfiring.

It's not our job to consider the remaining 50% of the population. We have no say in it, they won't feel better because we pity them. And pity or sympathy is not going to change EU citizens from wanting the EU to represent their interests. Against all third countries, including the UK. This is a notion that your side often seems to neglect. They either expect the UK to be given special treatment or actually demand it, or they play the victim card and expect the EU to play nice because of all the poor people suffering.

Be very clear, we can absolutely like the UK and the people in the UK while at the same time expecting the EU to milk the UK for whatever its worth, because that's what the EU does with every third country. International trade and politics isn't about giving away your assets for free. And mind you, if we had wanted to be dicks about it, we'd just have let BoJo drive the car against the wall. You are getting our special, Mr. Nice Guy treatment already. What's happening right now? That's the EU trying to soften the blow and fix mistakes happening on the UK's side because we DO care about UK citizens, even although they are technically not our business.

Not sure why you're harping on about insults, but I think it's time for you to move on. You're a big boy, you can take it. Deal with it, we all have to. This isn't a safe space culture.

This is such a shallow remark, if this was you and you were consistently being attacked or insulted, i bet you would care. This is why it's impossible to have a conversation with you Slant, you are being disingenuous in your reply. What's worse i can not even believe you typed that with out knowing how bad that reflects on you. Listens to the other side haha, just stop, please.

It times for you to move on Slant, report me or ignore me, i can't listen to your bias anymore

[LeGin Tufnel]

Sod why Dribbles was infracted… why was Demolitia infracted? He didn’t say anything lol

Infract me!

The fundamental problem I have with many posters here is that I know absolutely nothing about them (they let on so little) so I can’t really take them seriously. Whereas other posters in this thread have let on a bit more and I value and respect their opinions. They are genuine posters.

Let’s flip this on its head:

@sircaw - do you work? If so, broadly, what industry do you work in? Clearly, you’ve been unaffected by Brexit so far? Do you accept that if one works in an industry that has or will be affected by Brexit this year, one might be just a teensy little bit pissed off? No? Life continuing as normal in the Sircaw household?

[Veggie50]

[/B]

This is such a shallow remark, if this was you and you were consistently being attacked or insulted, i bet you would care. This is why it's impossible to have a conversation with you Slant, you are being disingenuous in your reply. What's worse i can not even believe you typed that with out knowing how bad that reflects on you. Listens to the other side haha, just stop, please.

It times for you to move on Slant, report me or ignore me, i can't listen to your bias anymore

Nobody is attacking you, or the UK. People are attacking Brexit. Now if you wish to personify Brexit with either your country or yourself, that’s on you.

It’s not a bad thing to discuss ramifications of a political discussion. The fact those ramifications in case of Brexit are nearly all negative, so be it.

[sircaw]

Sod why Dribbles was infracted… why was Demolitia infracted? He didn’t say anything lol

Infract me!

The fundamental problem I have with many posters here is that I know absolutely nothing about them (they let on so little) so I can’t really take them seriously. Whereas other posters in this thread have let on a bit more and I value and respect their opinions. They are genuine posters.

Let’s flip this on its head:

@sircaw - do you work? If so, broadly, what industry do you work in? Clearly, you’ve been unaffected by Brexit so far? Do you accept that if one works in an industry that has or will be affected by Brexit this year, one might be just a teensy little bit pissed off? No? Life continuing as normal in the Sircaw household?

I am not sure how i am meant to respond to you to be honest, you wanted me banned, you called me a troll and told me to basically fuck of to some site and i bet you reported me too. I am not sure why you could not have asked me like you just did, instead of being all confrontational like you did at the start?

As for Brexit, so far i don't really see a difference, the only difference which i agree was annoying, was receiving something in the post a week ago, which was the wrong item,it came from europe i had issues sending it back.

There were some shortages at our local Tesco's, a lot to be fair, but i attribute most of that to people panic buying and hoovering up the entire shop mainly because of that nasty covid, that was before Xmas, i think most people experienced that, it's not unique to me.

Yes, there have definitely been problems in the supply chain and i agree there have been a lot of rocky moments so far. I am hoping a lot of the red tape and people being confused about sending items to Europe and filling out paperwork for the borders will be sorted, people need to readjust and like all things in life, things take time to iron out.

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Nobody is attacking you, or the UK. People are attacking Brexit. Now if you wish to personify Brexit with either your country or yourself, that’s on you.

It’s not a bad thing to discuss ramifications of a political discussion. The fact those ramifications in case of Brexit are nearly all negative, so be it.

You sound reasonable but i don't think everyone has responded to me in your manner.