[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Slant]

[/B]

This is such a shallow remark, if this was you and you were consistently being attacked or insulted, i bet you would care. This is why it's impossible to have a conversation with you Slant, you are being disingenuous in your reply. What's worse i can not even believe you typed that with out knowing how bad that reflects on you. Listens to the other side haha, just stop, please.

It times for you to move on Slant, report me or ignore me, i can't listen to your bias anymore

So you got nothing. Nothing but platitudes and buzzphrases? Gotcha.

[sircaw]

So you got nothing. Nothing but platitudes and buzzphrases? Gotcha.

Like i said slant, your not worth having a conversation with, you're a disingenuous person.

This is the last reply to you.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Like i said slant, your not worth having a conversation with, you're a disingenuous person.

This is the last reply to you.

We might get somewhere if you took that giant chip off your shoulder. You complain about everyone being negative about Brexit, when all we are doing is talking about Brexit related news. Which happens to be almost universally bad at the moment. If you don't agree with that statement, find some actual good news about Brexit and post it. I've asked you to do that, you refused and basically accused me of not reading or understanding what you'd already posted. Which was a single article that wasn't actually good news about Brexit.

So put up or shut up. If you actually care for this country, you'd worry that Brexit appears to be entirely bad news for both the UK and the people that live in it. You'd be following this news and adjusting your position accordingly. You'd be concerned that the people that led you down this path had lied and misled you. Your anger would be towards them, instead you are directing your anger towards the people that are pointing out that you've been duped by grifters and con-men.

Grow up (this is a common refrain I have to use with Brexiteers) and take responsibility for what you've helped to do. You helped Brexit to happen, now it's damaging the country you claim to love. If you want to avoid that happening again, educate yourself about the people whose lies drove Brexit and what they got out of it. Why they did it, and why they don't give a shit about this country. Make sure that the next grift they pull (and they will pull another one) you aren't part of the group that falls for it.

You want this country to get better? Stop following people that don't care how much they screw over the people that live in it.

[LeGin Tufnel]

I am not sure how i am meant to respond to you to be honest, you wanted me banned, you called me a troll and told me to basically fuck of to some site and i bet you reported me too.

As for Brexit, so far i don't really see a difference, the only difference which i agree was annoying, was receiving something in the post a week ago, which was the wrong item,it came from europe i had issues sending it back.

There were some shortages at our local Tesco's, a lot to be fair, but i attribute most of that to people panic buying and hoovering up the entire shop mainly because of that nasty covid, that was before Xmas, i think most people experienced that, it's not unique to me.

Yes, there have definitely been problems in the supply chain and i agree there have been a lot of rocky moments so far. I am hoping a lot of the red tape and people being confused about sending items to Europe and filling out paperwork for the borders will be sorted, people need to readjust and like all things in life, things take time to iron out.

OK. So, this is a start, then.

Although you have not been forthcoming about exactly what it is you do or don't do for a living, I will be.

I am a professional musician. Exactly what I do is unimportant but I’m in the fortunate position where I’m coping / will be able to cope with the negative financial repercussions of Covid and Brexit.

However, I have many, many long standing friends and colleagues who will not be able to cope. These friends and colleagues are already desperate because Covid has brought the arts to its knees. The actions of the UK government in failing to secure an agreement with the EU re. rights for touring musicians (and support staff) will, without doubt, cause immense distress.

Do you understand that when you write:

people need to readjust and like all things in life, things take time to iron out.

on behalf of my many friends and colleagues, I find that deeply, deeply offensive?

If you are a genuine poster, please take the time to read the email, in its entirety, written by Guy Verhofstadt, linked below (for some reason I can’t embed the pic), and explain to me why I should not also find the actions of the UK government deeply, deeply offensive:

https://imgur.com/a/o1rDMLb

Then explain to me how my criticism of the above and those who voted for it amounts to me “hating my country”.

[sircaw]

OK. So, this is a start, then.

Although you have not been forthcoming about exactly what it is you do or don't do for a living, I will be.

I am a professional musician. Exactly what I do is unimportant but I’m in the fortunate position where I’m coping / will be able to cope with the negative financial repercussions of Covid and Brexit.

However, I have many, many long standing friends and colleagues who will not be able to cope. These friends and colleagues are already desperate because Covid has brought the arts to its knees. The actions of the UK government in failing to secure an agreement with the EU re. rights for touring musicians (and support staff) will, without doubt, cause immense distress.

Do you understand that when you write:



on behalf of my many friends and colleagues, I find that deeply, deeply offensive?

If you are a genuine poster, please take the time to read the email, in its entirety, written by Guy Verhofstadt, linked below (for some reason I can’t embed the pic), and explain to me why I should not also find the actions of the UK government deeply, deeply offensive:

https://imgur.com/a/o1rDMLb

Then explain to me how my criticism of the above and those who voted for it amounts to me “hating my country”.

I never said you did not have a right to be upset, if you can find where i said that please feel free to link it.
I never said you are not allowed to criticise the UK, what i said was the constant barrage of negativity and constant doom and gloom fear-mongering by some people in this thread is not helping anyone, when will it stop, will you still be on this thread in 10 years time doing the same thing. All i am looking for is a balanced and fair forum where one side does not get to dictate what can be discussed or can not be discussed. And i don't want to be attacked for holding a different viewpoint than mine.

As for Deeply deeply offensive, i am sorry that the vote has made your life harder, but i am not sure why you find me saying that people need to adjust is some offensive on my part, its a reality, we have left and the truth is people need to readjust. i am not saying it with malice, i am saying it as the vote has been cast and the outcome has already been decided.

Could the UK government be doing better, you bet ya, sometimes i wonder what the hell they are doing, you will not get any finger waving from me at the way they have been acting the last year or the way they are dealing with covid. It has not been up to scratch.

- - - Updated - - -

We might get somewhere if you took that giant chip off your shoulder. You complain about everyone being negative about Brexit, when all we are doing is talking about Brexit related news. Which happens to be almost universally bad at the moment. If you don't agree with that statement, find some actual good news about Brexit and post it. I've asked you to do that, you refused and basically accused me of not reading or understanding what you'd already posted. Which was a single article that wasn't actually good news about Brexit.

So put up or shut up. If you actually care for this country, you'd worry that Brexit appears to be entirely bad news for both the UK and the people that live in it. You'd be following this news and adjusting your position accordingly. You'd be concerned that the people that led you down this path had lied and misled you. Your anger would be towards them, instead you are directing your anger towards the people that are pointing out that you've been duped by grifters and con-men.

Grow up (this is a common refrain I have to use with Brexiteers) and take responsibility for what you've helped to do. You helped Brexit to happen, now it's damaging the country you claim to love. If you want to avoid that happening again, educate yourself about the people whose lies drove Brexit and what they got out of it. Why they did it, and why they don't give a shit about this country. Make sure that the next grift they pull (and they will pull another one) you aren't part of the group that falls for it.

You want this country to get better? Stop following people that don't care how much they screw over the people that live in it.

Once again you have missed the point.

It's like you refuse to see any other point that is not yours, remember I am a lone person here, your part of the bubble, leave your bubble and try and understand what other people are saying instead of the circle jerk that stand around and all node heads with you.

thank you

[Kallisto]

I never said you did not have a right to be upset, if you can find where i said that please feel free to link it.
I never said you are not allowed to criticise the UK, what i said was the constant barrage of negativity and constant doom and gloom fear-mongering by some people in this thread is not helping anyone, when will it stop, will you still be on this thread in 10 years time doing the same thing. All i am looking for is a balanced and fair forum where one side does not get to dictate what can be discussed or can not be discussed. And i don't want to be attacked for holding a different viewpoint than mine.

As for Deeply deeply offensive, i am sorry that the vote has made your life harder, but i am not sure why you find me saying that people need to adjust is some offensive on my part, its a reality, we have left and the truth is people need to readjust. i am not saying it with malice, i am saying it as the vote has been cast and the outcome has already been decided.

It's offensive because you're basically telling people who have spent decades living a life that harmed no one, making a living they love to basically be fucking miserable until their dying days because retards, racists, xenophobes had a vote.

[sircaw]

It's offensive because you're basically telling people who have spent decades living a life that harmed no one, making a living they love to basically be fucking miserable until their dying days because retards, racists, xenophobes had a vote.

No, i am not, and save the hyperbole for someone else.

Your trying like others to villainize people once again that do not share your opinion, people are allowed to vote the way they want, just because it does not agree with you, you have no right to project all that crap on to them.

why even have a vote in the first place if all your going to do is call all the other people retards, racists and xenophobes, what a pathetic thing to say. whats next dont like the way someone votes for a political party, what about someone with a different religion to you, you sound like a bigot in the making.

Democracy, if you dont like it move to North Korea or Russia.

[Veggie50]

OK. So, this is a start, then.

Although you have not been forthcoming about exactly what it is you do or don't do for a living, I will be.

I am a professional musician. Exactly what I do is unimportant but I’m in the fortunate position where I’m coping / will be able to cope with the negative financial repercussions of Covid and Brexit.

However, I have many, many long standing friends and colleagues who will not be able to cope. These friends and colleagues are already desperate because Covid has brought the arts to its knees. The actions of the UK government in failing to secure an agreement with the EU re. rights for touring musicians (and support staff) will, without doubt, cause immense distress.

Do you understand that when you write:



on behalf of my many friends and colleagues, I find that deeply, deeply offensive?

If you are a genuine poster, please take the time to read the email, in its entirety, written by Guy Verhofstadt, linked below (for some reason I can’t embed the pic), and explain to me why I should not also find the actions of the UK government deeply, deeply offensive:

https://imgur.com/a/o1rDMLb

Then explain to me how my criticism of the above and those who voted for it amounts to me “hating my country”.

I would like to note I categorically disagree with your line of thinking here. Specifically; the idea ones ideas and comments have more merit when you know ones background.

If I state 1 + 1 = 2, does that statement weigh more when I hand over a resume with a doctorate in mathematics, than if I were to lay brick for a living?

That line of reasoning follows the fallacy of authority claim. I.e; “I am an authority here, so you should not debate against my claims.”

The sources one lists should be standard to judge claims.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Once again you have missed the point.

It's like you refuse to see any other point that is not yours, remember I am a lone person here, your part of the bubble, leave your bubble and try and understand what other people are saying instead of the circle jerk that stand around and all node heads with you.

thank you

If I'm missing your "point" it's because you're doing a terrible job of explaining it. The fake politeness doesn't fly either; insulting someone's intelligence and then saying "thank you" at the end is right up there with statements that start "I'm not racist, but".

Explain what your point actually is. Aside from complaining about people detailing all the downsides of Brexit.

Oh, and the rest of what you've written there; classic projection. Which is pretty much a go-to move for you people. Why should we try and understand your position, when you make literally no effort to understand ours? Meeting in the middle is not achieved by us coming to where you are.

[LeGin Tufnel]

I never said you did not have a right to be upset, if you can find where i said that please feel free to link it.

Fair point.

I never said you are not allowed to criticise the UK, what i said was the constant barrage of negativity and constant doom and gloom fear-mongering by some people in this thread is not helping anyone, when will it stop, will you still be on this thread in 10 years time doing the same thing.

However, do you accept that if one is on the receiving end of an immediate negative effect of having left the EU, to that person it isn’t actually “doom and gloom fear-mongering”? It is reality? Or not?

Many in the Remain campaign (Project Fear as you call it) to their discredit, rather than focusing on the benefits of EU membership, repeated ad nauseum dire warnings of exactly what is happening: overnight, trade has been made more difficult. Or do you disagree with this? Do you think trade is as easy or easier than prior to Jan 1?

All i am looking for is a balanced and fair forum where one side does not get to dictate what can be discussed or can not be discussed. And i don't want to be attacked for holding a different viewpoint than mine.

No one in this thread dictates what can or can’t be discussed. It’s up to you, as a Brexit-supporter, to put forward a clear argument forward as to what you feel you have gained by having left the EU. If you don’t or can’t do that then, yes, you will be roundly criticised.

I still don’t know, exactly, what your viewpoint actually is. What, in your opinion, is an immediate positive benefit of Brexit?

As for Deeply deeply offensive, i am sorry that the vote has made your life harder, but i am not sure why you find me saying that people need to adjust is some offensive on my part, its a reality, we have left and the truth is people need to readjust. i am not saying it with malice, i am saying it as the vote has been cast and the outcome has already been decided.

I disagree completely with this. This is why the referendum should not have been held in the form it was. A binary vote in/out vote with hundreds of possible outcomes. It remains the fact that the electorate did not know exactly what they were voting for.

And, so we’re completely clear, by ‘need to readjust’ you are in fact saying that the people who this year will lose their incomes, their homes, their relationships, their mental health as a direct result of Brexit should simply accept this.

I hope sincerely, you're prepared to pick up the tab.

- - - Updated - - -

/snip

chill dude, one can talk street if one wants

Edit...

lol anyway - I'm the least likely person in a position to use the "appeal to authority" fallacy. I've just laughed a lot while googling that

All I was saying was that I have more respect for the posters in this thread who have given a bit of themselves rather than just being anonymous keyboard warriors

[sircaw]

Fair point.



However, do you accept that if one is on the receiving end of an immediate negative effect of having left the EU, to that person it isn’t actually “doom and gloom fear-mongering”? It is reality? Or not?

Many in the Remain campaign (Project Fear as you call it) to their discredit, rather than focusing on the benefits of EU membership, repeated ad nauseum dire warnings of exactly what is happening: overnight, trade has been made more difficult. Or do you disagree with this? Do you think trade is as easy or easier than prior to Jan 1?



No one in this thread dictates what can or can’t be discussed. It’s up to you, as a Brexit-supporter, to put forward a clear argument forward as to what you feel you have gained by having left the EU. If you don’t or can’t do that then, yes, you will be roundly criticised.

I still don’t know, exactly, what your viewpoint actually is. What, in your opinion, is an immediate positive benefit of Brexit?



I disagree completely with this. This is why the referendum should not have been held in the form it was. A binary vote in/out vote with hundreds of possible outcomes. It remains the fact that the electorate did not know exactly what they were voting for.

And, so we’re completely clear, by ‘need to readjust’ you are in fact saying that the people who this year will lose their incomes, their homes, their relationships, their mental health as a direct result of Brexit should simply accept this.

I hope sincerely, you're prepared to pick up the tab.

You have the right to criticise the UK government, Brexit, the EU whatever you want.

But you do not have the right to criticize people who exercise their democratic vote and blame them for things that do not go your way. We live in a democracy, If you want to live in a democracy i am afraid that is part of the deal. if you find the vote did not go your way, why are you not blaming the people that campaigned on the remain side to disprove the lies of NHS bus lie so easily?

We head months of Tv shows, news broadcasts, interviews with celebrities, politicians etc, why did they not dismiss the lies or do a better job of it, Explain to me how they allowed the lies to fester then.

Farage and Mog, the NHS did not persuade me one little bit, i had other worries in my life at the time to concentrate on, but when i did decide to vote, i did not like the Eu at a fundamental level, I am sorry you somehow thing your vote is more important than mine, but it is not.

For you to blame people and say silly things like pick up the tab, what a ridiculous thing to say.

the end result is this, i want to try and move forward in a positive manner, the vote has been cast and i can not change that.

You want to remain negative and try and blame people for things not going your way, then by all means, carry on.

[Acidbaron]

No one is ignoring the negatives but your constant flogging of the dead horse day after day, year after year is helping no one and is not sorting anything out, Seems to me your on some sort of Schadenfreude path when it comes to the UK and its possible future.

To keep looking for negatives day after day and salivating at them seems very negative to me, Do you actually have an end game here, Do you want the UK to fail?
because it sure as hell sounds like it from where i sit.

You and the others can go to town on all the negatives of Brexit, that's your prerogative,i am not denying them but neither am i going to go down the rabbit hole, like wanting to believe that the UK is somehow eternally doomed, just like one of the last posts slant made above.

I have not said or denied that there would not be consequences to Brexit, again you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

I believe the UK will be fine in the long run and will prosper, the world is a big place with massive amounts of growth happening outside the Eu.

Have a good one

Few things here to break down,

This thread get bumped up again every time Brexit related news appears. This news has been almost exclusively negatives. You have been asked to deliver a positive angle on this but so far you haven't what further reinforces that the entire Brexit story is not a positive one. If the Nissan plant is the best you got, i have further bad news for you plants that don't get invested in get shut down after the model runs its course what is somewhere around 6 years.

The Brexit was also constantly sold as something positive by the leave camp, the leave camp also constantly demonized the EU side this is something that went on even before the Brexit took place and is mostly at root why leave got that many votes to begin with, a disinformation campaign.

Exactly growth is happening but why would anyone want to invest in the UK, who is now going to go to growing pains while also having a high employment cost attached to it. Nobody says it's doomed but the outlook isn't great and so i would worry less about what other think might happen and much rather the inaction from your own government. Might want to worry more about their lack of a plan post-brexit.

[Masark]

if you find the vote did not go your way, why are you not blaming the people that campaigned on the remain side to disprove the lies of nhs bus lie so easily?

We head months of tv shows, news broadcasts, interviews with celebrities, politicians etc, why did they not dismiss the lies or do a better job of it, explain to me how they allowed the lies to fester then.

Why didn't the remoaners stop us from driving over this cliff?!?!?! This is their fault!!!

[Twdft]

You have the right to criticise the UK government, Brexit, the EU whatever you want.

But you do not have the right to criticize people who exercise their democratic vote and blame them for things that do not go your way. We live in a democracy, If you want to live in a democracy i am afraid that is part of the deal. if you find the vote did not go your way, why are you not blaming the people that campaigned on the remain side to disprove the lies of NHS bus lie so easily?

We head months of Tv shows, news broadcasts, interviews with celebrities, politicians etc, why did they not dismiss the lies or do a better job of it, Explain to me how they allowed the lies to fester then.

Farage and Mog, the NHS did not persuade me one little bit, i had other worries in my life at the time to concentrate on, but when i did decide to vote, i did not like the Eu at a fundamental level, I am sorry you somehow thing your vote is more important than mine, but it is not.

For you to blame people and say silly things like pick up the tab, what a ridiculous thing to say.

the end result is this, i want to try and move forward in a positive manner, the vote has been cast and i can not change that.

You want to remain negative and try and blame people for things not going your way, then by all means, carry on.

How exactly did your life get better from leaving the EU?

I still don’t know, exactly, what your viewpoint actually is. What, in your opinion, is an immediate positive benefit of Brexit?

[Elegiac]

why are you not blaming the people that campaigned on the remain side to disprove the lies of NHS bus lie so easily?

We did, or were y'all asleep for the months we were dragging Nick Cameron over the coals for agreeing to the referendum and then doing fuck all because he didn't possibly think Brexit could pass? Or the months pointing out how Corbyn and then the Liberal Democrats were bungling setting up an effective Remain coalition, to boot.

Some of us have some degree of sensibility; but then again, that's why we supported Remain rather than Leave.

[Huehuecoyotl]

if you find the vote did not go your way, why are you not blaming the people that campaigned on the remain side to disprove the lies of NHS bus lie so easily?

We are blaming them. Because we can do more than one thing at once, and hold more than one thought in our head at once.

We can blame the people that pushed for Brexit for their own petty self-serving interests. And at the same time we can blame the people that fell for the lies rather than educate themselves about the facts; the same people, in many cases, that continue to ignore facts to this very day. People like, you know, you.

If you want to remain ignorant, then in most circumstances that's your choice. Not everyone wants to try and understand what's happening around them. But when that ignorance damages the country I live in and the lives of the people around me, I reserve the right to be angry and to point fingers.

Everything you've written recently screams "I don't want to learn". Which means the next one of these scams that is pushed by the same fuckers that gave us Brexit, the chances are you'll fall for that too. And this country will get a little bit worse as a result. If you love this country, educate yourself and gain immunity to people that want to take advantage of you.

[zealo]

Why didn't the remoaners stop us from driving over this cliff?!?!?! This is their fault!!!

And at that, the "remoaners" certainly tried. The other side just had no interest in the warnings of that Brexit would develop into a shitshow.

[sircaw]

Right i think it's time to call it quits again, i have come in and said my piece, some people seemed to have actually taken the time to read what i have said, others have not. Some others are trying to twist words.

I understand Brexit is a hot topic, but like all things, people need to be able to listen to each other to have a decent conversation. I have done an awful amount of typing the last few days.

This will be my last post for a long while, keep well and nice chatting to you all.

Hopefully, we can all move forward now and make this thread a better place for everyone.

Peace.

[Huehuecoyotl]

people need to be able to listen to each other to have a decent conversation.

If you aren't going to take your advice, why should we?

[Calfredd]

people need to be able to listen to each other to have a decent conversation. I have done an awful amount of typing the last few days.

Just as there is hearing without listening, there is talking without actually speaking.