View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #29221
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    It could work right now if the EU were being reasonable as the NIP they agreed to requires and demands. But they seem to think Marks and Spencer are a threat to the EU's existence and we have the ridiculous situation whereby goods to Ireland from the UK are being rejected because a line or two on a form is written in Blue ink rather than Black. It smacks of the stupidity of the bent banana scenario all over again.

    EU chaos as 'entire' M&S shipments turned away and destroyed because of 'wrong ink colour'

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...Union-trade-vn

    Well two sides can be petty and whilst the UK up until now has been fair minded and yet holding all the EU agreement Article 16 cards, it will not put up with it for much longer.

    All Lord Frost is doing is warning the EU that they must honour the agreement they signed, that dumb actions have consequences and that they need to behave in an adult, sensible and reasonable way, or Article 16 will be the answer. Then the EU will have no option but to break the GFA and put up a border in Ireland.

    That scenario will not be the fault of the UK and should be plain to see for all.
    Is the UK mainland now performing checks on EU goods coming in? Yes they are, because apparently Brexit was all about "taking back control of our borders". But in the world of dribbles, this type of thing should only be available to one side in this negotiation. We can do what we like to EU goods coming into our borders, but apparently the EU isn't allowed to do the same to us.

    It's that fucking ridiculous.

    And yes, having a border that breaks NI from the rest of the UK is clearly not perfect. But that was the only option available that didn't break the GFA once the UK had said that it absolutely had to be able to diverge from EU standards.

    So basically the entire thing is the fault of the UK, at every stage:

    1. Triggers Brexit (UK)
    2. Demands right to diverge from EU standards (UK)
    3. Signs agreement to having a border in the Irish Sea (UK)
    4. Refuses EU assistance in maintaining the function of that border (UK)

    Blaming the EU for any of this is laughable. But we know that the rules of reality don't impinge on dribbles world.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  2. #29222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Why are you blaming the EU?
    I'm not, I'm blaming the negotiators on both sides but mostly on the UK side, hence the statement:
    Now you can (and should) blame the UK politicians who signed up to the withdrawal agreement for this mess knowing full well it was unviable

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    The EU believed, in good faith, that what the UK offered was possible
    No, that is not true, the were multiple negotiators from the EU involved and it's simply not possible they were all retarded. They knew full well what was being agreed wasn't possible, they agreed to it anyway because they knew it wouldn't be their problem when it didn't work.


    The big problem at the moment, is that everyone on the EU side seems entirely focused on blaming the UK politicians for their part in creating this unworkable mess, while ignoring their own role in creating it. This won't be resolved until both sides stop flinging poo at each other and sit down to negotiate a new/revised agreement that it's actually possible to implement.

  3. #29223
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    The big problem at the moment, is that everyone on the EU side seems entirely focused on blaming the UK politicians for their part in creating this unworkable mess, while ignoring their own role in creating it. This won't be resolved until both sides stop flinging poo at each other and sit down to negotiate a new/revised agreement that it's actually possible to implement.
    The only realistic possibilities for change are:
    • Norther Ireland (well, north-eastern corner) leaving the uk (well, england)
    • uk joining the single market (similarly as Norway etc) - either permanently or temporarily (i.e. the backstop once more)

  4. #29224
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    That scenario will not be the fault of the UK and should be plain to see for all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    This entire debacle is 100% the UK's fault.
    This pretty much sums up the whole debacle right now, everyone (especially politicians) seems obsessed with blaming the other side for the mess while absolving their own side of blame, when in reality both sides are to blame and the mess can only be fixed by the sides coming together to find a viable solution

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    [*] uk joining the single market (similarly as Norway etc) - either permanently or temporarily (i.e. the backstop once more)[/list]
    During the Brexit campaign our current PM said that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market, as that would be foolish. Kinda shows how trustworthy he is xD

  5. #29225
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    No, that is not true, the were multiple negotiators from the EU involved and it's simply not possible they were all retarded. They knew full well what was being agreed wasn't possible, they agreed to it anyway because they knew it wouldn't be their problem when it didn't work.

    The big problem at the moment, is that everyone on the EU side seems entirely focused on blaming the UK politicians for their part in creating this unworkable mess, while ignoring their own role in creating it. This won't be resolved until both sides stop flinging poo at each other and sit down to negotiate a new/revised agreement that it's actually possible to implement.
    What the UK offered is entirely possible, please explain how it is not.
    Why should the EU have thought that the UK had no intention of putting a border in the Irish Sea and why would that somehow be completely unworkable?

    And what is the EU role in creating this mess? The EU didn't make the UK leave the EU. Nor did the EU force the UK to leave the single market. The EU has always been entirely clear in how the freedom of goods works and how that is tied to the other freedoms, including free movement of people. There was never a solution to the UK leaving the single market that does not involve a border somewhere between the UK and the EU. And since the EU are not the ones who initiated this mess they obviously have no interest in putting a border between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

    Its a problem the UK had to solve, and they never did. May tried it with the backstop that the UK wouldn't accept and Boris sold out NI to do it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #29226
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    when in reality both sides are to blame and the mess can only be fixed by the sides coming together to find a viable solution
    Except no. "but both sides" relativism is complete bullshit.

    irish sea border is a viable solution. It sucks. Anyone with a brain knew it would suck. But it's viable.

  7. #29227
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The only realistic possibilities for change are:
    • Norther Ireland (well, north-eastern corner) leaving the uk (well, england)
    • uk joining the single market (similarly as Norway etc) - either permanently or temporarily (i.e. the backstop once more)
    You know, I don't know why, but it bugs me that you refuse to capitalise "UK", and "England" in this case, whenever you mention them. Especially given that you generally always have good sentence structure and grammar lol UK always seems to get missed. Kinda curious why.

  8. #29228
    I missed this particular bit of Brexit inspired stupidity, but did anyone see that the Ukraine deal that we signed in October last year had to be reopened this week, because a large amount of the text had been cut and pasted, and it effectively tied us into EU rules!

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1884518.html

    Incompetent and clueless. The Brexiteers ride again!
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  9. #29229
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    This pretty much sums up the whole debacle right now, everyone (especially politicians) seems obsessed with blaming the other side for the mess while absolving their own side of blame, when in reality both sides are to blame and the mess can only be fixed by the sides coming together to find a viable solution

    - - - Updated - - -


    During the Brexit campaign our current PM said that leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market, as that would be foolish. Kinda shows how trustworthy he is xD
    Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and I start drilling.

    Now the boat is rapidly taking on water and I call for your help in dealing with those holes. We partly succeed, but it’s not entirely water tight. I then say it’s your fault for not fixing the boat properly.

    Now theres 3 options:

    1) you accept the blame.
    2) we share the blame.
    3) you slap me like the retard I am and blame me.

    I know which option I’d call fairest.

  10. #29230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and I start drilling.

    Now the boat is rapidly taking on water and I call for your help in dealing with those holes. We partly succeed, but it’s not entirely water tight. I then say it’s your fault for not fixing the boat properly.
    That analogy doesn't really work, a more accurate one would be:

    Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and explain my plan to you, I know full well this will sink the boat but hopefully I won't be on it by then and right now I just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat. You immediately realise my plan will sink the boat, but hopefully you won't be on it by then and right now you just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat so you agree and we drill the holes.

    When the boat starts sinking we each blame each other, while refusing to do anything to fix the damn holes.

    Politicians /sigh >.>

  11. #29231
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    What the UK offered is entirely possible, please explain how it is not.
    Why should the EU have thought that the UK had no intention of putting a border in the Irish Sea and why would that somehow be completely unworkable?
    It's a complicated issue but to put it as simply as possible, the whole of the British Isles operates a Schengen Style area called the CTA (it's pretty much what Schengen was inspired by) and putting a border in the Irish Sea or in-between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (without imminent military threat) wouldn't be permissible under the CTA. The EU knew this long before Brexit because it was the entire reason the UK and the RoI had to join the EU as a pair, because having a country join the Customs Union who had an open border policy with another country would be disastrous.

    So yeah, the Brexiteers who negotiated it were lying through their teeth just to get the thing signed, as were the EU politicians who agreed to what they knew was impossible to enforce

  12. #29232
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    EU politicians who agreed to what they knew was impossible to enforce
    how is it impossible to enforce? the enforcement arrangements are in the agreement.

    --

    yea. if they break an international agreement it will result in penalties from the EU (and US + CPTPP will die), as the agreement says and NI will moody as fuck.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-07-24 at 12:46 PM.

  13. #29233
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    It's a complicated issue but to put it as simply as possible, the whole of the British Isles operates a Schengen Style area called the CTA (it's pretty much what Schengen was inspired by) and putting a border in the Irish Sea or in-between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (without imminent military threat) wouldn't be permissible under the CTA. The EU knew this long before Brexit because it was the entire reason the UK and the RoI had to join the EU as a pair, because having a country join the Customs Union who had an open border policy with another country would be disastrous.

    So yeah, the Brexiteers who negotiated it were lying through their teeth just to get the thing signed, as were the EU politicians who agreed to what they knew was impossible to enforce
    checking the CTA on wikipedia the 3e sentence is
    Based on agreements that are not legally binding,[6] the internal borders of the CTA are subject to minimal controls
    So I don't see why the EU would be worried about a non legal binding agreement made internally in the UK.

    Besides if the WA was not legal because of the CTA I would have expected it to be challenged in UK courts. Is the WA currently being challenged in UK courts based on its supposed violation of the CTA?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #29234
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    That analogy doesn't really work, a more accurate one would be:

    Imagine we’re faring across the ocean on a boat together. One day I decide the boat would look nicer with holes in the bottom and explain my plan to you, I know full well this will sink the boat but hopefully I won't be on it by then and right now I just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat. You immediately realise my plan will sink the boat, but hopefully you won't be on it by then and right now you just want the kudos for doing something to "improve" the boat so you agree and we drill the holes.

    When the boat starts sinking we each blame each other, while refusing to do anything to fix the damn holes.

    Politicians /sigh >.>
    I agree with most of your modifications, except that the EU had no say in the UK triggering article 50 (drilling the holes), and was only conscripted into creating a new situation (fixing the boat).

  15. #29235
    Ignore the burner spouting nonsense. They will be gone shortly.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  16. #29236
    So, you're discovering that every country has rules dictating trade ?

    This is not unusual, or new ...

    Everyone can trade with the EU, if they meet the requirements. Same goes for every country on earth. They accept imports provided you meet their requirements. Including the UK ...

    So ... what ? EU bad, because MUKGA ?

    This whole shitshow was decided by the UK, and the rest of the world can only compose as best they can to ensure they are not impacted too much ...

  17. #29237
    --
    This agreement took a long time and only came into existence because Boris offered to exclude NI from the UK.

    There is no new agreement that can be negotiated that does not put a border somewhere in the UK without the UK agreeing to rejoin the single market without any say in the rules of said market.

    And yes the EU has self imposed rules. They are called safety and quality standards. Shockingly most countries have some form of them and since the EU is a single open area anything that comes in has to meet the EU wide requirements because it can then be transported throughout the entire EU with minimal fuss.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    or some sort of NI deal with ROI on agri-products 'risk'. If they can make agreements that products wont be sold on waivers could be implemented in NI/ROI.
    This is actually part of the WA. There is a bunch of paperwork for items that go to NI to assure they won't move into the EU. These 'waivers' are for a large part what the current discussions are about because UK companies are upset they have to do a whole bunch of bureaucracy to move items within the UK (but across the Irish Sea).

    This is exactly the 'in the UK but not really' situation that we all warned was happening with this WA by Boris.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-07-24 at 12:45 PM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #29238
    Stop biting with the burner troll. Report and move on.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  19. #29239
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    Stop biting with the burner troll. Report and move on.
    Sir yes sir!

  20. #29240
    1464 pages in and we have discovered the single market. the unstoppable march of human progress.

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